There are very important news from Jack & Ed posted at Renderotica front page and Adult Forum. For some reason they didn't posted here. Spread the news!

Sorry I am stupid. Here the fact. Ed and Jack to Leave Renderosity Jack D. Kammerer & Ed Arseneault As some of you may know, these past two months have been incrediably busy ones for Ed and myself as we try to find a stability for Renderosity and a future for the Community that we are proud to call our Friends and our Family. For those of you who do not know, Ed and I have been in the process of talking with Zygote, Curious Labs and Edgenet in an effort to grow a more stronger bond with the programs, software and models that we all use. These conversations began taking place a little over three months ago and the deal (which I will get to shortly) would not only help Renderosity to stay open and functioning, but will bring the Community much closer together and provide benefits for the Community, the Venders... all of us. The deal started, as I said, a little over three months ago (around the time that Victoria was released), when Ed and I talked to Zygote about them Merging with Renderosity. In the merger, they would bring their Online Store to Renderosity in the new catalog that Mark, Greg, Ed and I created for the NEW Online Store. This would, thereby, increase traffic not only to their products, but also to the Venders of Renderosity and would also allow us to do MORE specials like we have done with Zygote recently (the Camel and Michael the Millennium Man). THE DEAL: It was Zygote's intention to purchase Renderosity COMPLETELY from Edgenet. The two domain names: Renderosity.com and Poserforum.com, turning the Poserforum.com domain name into a routing page which would route people who type that domain name to make a choice of where they would like to go, either the PFO, Renderosity, Zygote, The Big-I or Curious Labs. The function of Renderosity would remain the same, as would the staff, with a guaranteed monthly income (promised by Zygote) we would finally be able to pay for expenses (the Renderotica Server which also hosts some other Community sites, such as the 3D Comic Collective and a few others) and be able to pay the Administration of Renderosity. Zygote would then be able to help the Community on a more personal level and have more involvement with the Community, by giving more specials, discounts on their products and models AND ALSO by giving discounts for software like Vue, Poser, TrueSpace and other programs that we would also be selling and distributing. In essense, helping Ed and I meet the goals that we set forth for Renderosity since we took it over. THE WAY IT WAS WORKING OUT: Ed and I were invited to come out to Utah, where Zygote is located, and begin to seriously work on our proposal. Ed and I had a great time over there, we got to see how they produce their models, give them thoughts and ideas on how to make them more enjoyable and affordable to the Community and gave each of us enough time to get to know one another and find out if we could work together. Once there, we were informed that Curious Labs was also interested in what we were looking to do with Zygote and wanted to jump on board. We held a telephone conference with Steve Cooper, Larry and one of the other owners that had flown in from Germany (I believe that is where he was from) and we talked about how Zygote, Curious Labs and Renderosity could take the Community to NEW heights. By working with Curious Labs, the New Poser program could tie in DIRECTLY into the Brokered Artist's and Zygote's store, making it possible of users of Poser to purchase Brokered and Zygote items directly from the program, increasing sales for BOTH parties. Also by allowing the Community a discount and a chance to get Poser before anyone else could and also make the plugins necessary to fullfil the Community's desires!! By the time Ed and I headed back to Michigan from Utah, we were very happy with how things were turning out. Finally, we would be able to DO something FOR the Community and the people that work with and for them. We had made arrangements to visit Curious Labs and also get a chance to meet everyone there. BUMPS ALONG THE ROAD: Like any Merger, we had some bumps in the road. On our way out to Utah, Ed's car broke down and we had to leave it in Colorado and rent a car to make the rest of the trip to Utah. On the way back, Ed and I had to rent a U-Haul truck (actually a Penske truck) that had a car carrier and towed Ed's car back from Colorado, back to Michigan, costing us more money than we planned on. I wont even mention the Tornado that chased Ed and I in Nebraska or the cool pictures we took of it (YES we pulled over long enough to take photos of it!). When it came time to fly out to California we had some serious BS to go through. The check for the Brokered store and Merchant Account from Edgenet still had not gotten to us (though they told us they sent on Friday a week before, when in reality it took us a WEEK to get it), so we had no money in the account of our Debit Card, which meant that when we got to ALAMO car rentals at San Jose airport, the card was declined and we were unable to rent a car to drive from San Jose to Santa Cruz to see Curious Labs (I won't even mention about how my left eardrum ruptured on the plane to San Jose). So Ed and I spent a wonderful, fun filled 5 hours in an EMPTY airport wondering how we would be able to get to the meeting, since we couldn't Ed and I, unfortunately, got an early flight and headed back home, then called Curious Labs and told them what had happened and agreed to try again and get together later this month. THE BRICK WALL WAITING FOR US AT THE END OF THE ROAD: The letter of Intent that Zygote sent to Edgenet, promising to purchase Renderosity was deadlined for September 16, 2000 at Midnight. We had to make sure that all the ducks were in a row before the purchase of it could be made. The first trouble began when Edgenet learned that Curious Labs was ALSO interested in Renderosity, the price for the Domain Names went up in price. Since Zygote is a small company (much like mine and Ed's) it made it absolutely NECESSARY that Curious Labs team up with Zygote to purchase the site. NOTE: For those that don't know and care about finacials, though Zygote does make money, Edgenet was asking for $100,000.00 for Renderosity. Zygote's terms and conditions for paying that much was the following... 1.) That Ed and I continue to fully run Renderosity with our staff (to which we made sure that we would not be "micromanaged") 2.) That they have full ownership of the software that Renderosity was run on. 3.) That they have BOTH domain names: Poserforum.com and Renderosity.com 4.) That they own the full Membership Database. During a discussion early this week, while Ed and I expressed to Zygote that we were upset that Edgenet was still charging too much for the Domain Names, Zygote informed us that that money also INCLUDED the Membership Database that Ed and I had built up since we took over Renderosity!! It seems, Edgenet failed to mention to Zygote that in a clause of our contract that was signed between Edgenet and Dark Soul Images, and I will qoute right from the contract, that: 6. Intellectual Property This AGREEMENT does not grant DSI any rights in connection with any trademarks or service marks of EdgeNet. Likewise, this agreement does not grant either party any rights to the intellectual property of the other, including the copyrights of BONDWARE Further more: 7. Remuneration In consideration of the use of the BONDWARE software to administer and manage the Renderosity Website, the goodwill built by EdgeNet, and the established customer base, (then breaks down the finacials..) So in other words, Edgenet was trying to sell to Zygote MORE than their "established customer base" (which is 3,992 members, everyone that signed up with Renderosity before November 4, 1999) and therefore trying to sell to Zygote, for part of that $100,000.00, mine and Ed's "intellectual property". Not cool! So immediately I called Edgenet and said that it was wrong for them to be selling something that wasn't theirs and for all intents and purposes was mine and Ed's, and that Ed and I should be able to either get a portion of the $100,000.00 or could get part ownership of the domain names for a site that we helped to build back up. This was not acceptiable to Edgenet and they rejected any offers that we made in trying to work something out, so the deal with Zygote and Curious Labs is off... OR IS IT?: Mine and Ed's goal has always been for the Community, to offer the best service to the Community possible. It has been our goal to make Renderosity into a place where people could feel at home, be a large family (though we have troubles from time to time), a place without restriction where people can speak their minds openly and a place where Ed and I don't abuse our Community, but have worked hard to preserve it. This is no longer possible with Renderosity. Mine and Ed's contract is up for re-negotiation on November 4, 2000 and Edgenet has clearly stated that Ed and I will NO LONGER be running Renderosity. That Edgenet will find a couple of people to try and do what Ed and I have done, keep it all for themselves and once again try and sell it to Zygote and Curious Labs, or anyone interested in purchasing the Members Database and their E-mail (something Ed and I tried HARD to be sure wouldn't happen). Currently, Ed and I are locked out of the Database, we can't e-mail the members of Renderosity to inform them of what is going on. Edgenet is breaking our contract with them and will be locking Ed and me out of Renderosity. A REAL LEGAL MESS!! They are going to CENSOR anything that we will try and tell the Community, so here we are, powerless and the Community COMPLETELY in Edgenet's control!! Willow and Grey were right about them, they weren't right about Ed and I, but it would seem they were 100% right about Edgenet. It doesn't make what they said and did right to Ed and I, but I am man enough to admitt when someone is right and I was wrong. SO WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN: Ed and I are not done serving the Community. Because of the lack of service that we have been receiving because of no programmer available to work on Renderosity, Renderotica or UnitedComics, Ed and I had been working with Greg and Mark from BECamations/A1hostco in creating a faster software package that worked like BONDWARE (the program that Renderosity uses), but would be faster and bug free, also with our own programmers we could fix any bugs or expand the ability of the software without a problem. It was our desire that once the sale of Renderosity was made, that we would plug in this software, deleting Edgenet's and continue to provide the SAME service, or BETTER service, that everyone has come to expect from Ed and I. Now, it seems, that, unfortunately, Ed and I may end up doing what Willow and Grey did a year ago (almost to this date, I might note) and ask the members of Renderosity to put their trust in Ed and I and move to the new site. We have continued our talks with Zygote even though the deal with Edgenet has fallen through and we are talking about them taking over the new forum that Ed and I will be finished building at the end of this month and we will be able to offer the same support that we had HOPED to offer to the Community, but this time saving Zygote $100,000.00 I don't know if this would be helpful to the Community, or if it might just be better if Ed and I quit our work with the Community and just leave the members at Renderosity, leave the Community with Edgenet and save the Community from undergoing a major move and confussion again. The last thing that I want to do is hurt the Community in ANY WAY, and so this message is either a SHOULD WE KEEP WORKING WITH THE COMMUNITY AT A NEW FORUM or JUST LEAVE AND LET THE COMMUNITY STAY WHERE THEY ARE? We don't know. We are hurt that it has come to this. I hate seeing a company that only cares about money and not about the Community get full control of the Community. And if the Community thinks that they should stick with Edgenet, who has benefited from mine and Ed's work, then I guess that is okay too. As long as the Community is taken care of, that's all that matters to us, that is all that ever mattered to us. So perhaps, us leaving the Community is best. All Ed and I wanted was a chance to say our piece to you, since they locked us out of the database, we have no way of letting anyone else know what has happened and if you wish to send to this your friends, other community members, on your own website or to anyone else who may be interested in this information, you may do so. I guess we are asking if Ed and I should continue, and if so, will we have your support. Sincerely, Jack and Ed. PS: the Opinion thingie-ma-bop on Renderotica doesn't work, so please post comments in the ADULT GALLERY SECTION... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PLEASE do not delete this Edgenet. Let's have an open discourse or you lose all credibility. From what I understand so far your side of the aisle is outta line. Make a statement at least for Christ's sake. John

I agree. I would like to know whats going on here.Let's let everyone debate this issue after all it is us artists that contribute the content for this site. Don't lock them out give them a chance to be heard.I for one think they have done wonders for this site and it's a sad day to see them go.We mostly do this for fun let's not let the almighty dollar ruin a good thing.Keep us informed of your future endevers Jack and Ed as I for one will support you !!

Nobody has been locked out of this community nor will they be. It's my hope that we can have a very public debate of how best to proceed with this site. I hope even Jack will join in. In fact, I'm a fan of this site returning to it's early roots where a loose group of folks manage the site as a team instead of any one individual or company.

Hey, Tim, did you just cut and paste that post from one of the archives from a year ago? It sure reads like one you made when you guys screwed the previous owners. JonRD

Tim... if Jack & Ed weren't/aren't locked out, why is it that they aren't posting to inform the community themselves but rather having to depend on others to post for them or for that matter using the email list to let everyone know what's going on?

hey guys, this afternoon we had lost our admin status and were concerned that should we step onto the site, we would also be banned as well. should the above remark by tim hold true, then it will be possible to openly discuss this so that everyone can see ALL sides, and make their own decisions which is everyone's right. i also responded to bone's WTF having been shown that thread first by someone. please check that one out as well. thanks all ed

Hello, First, please let me state that I want NO ONE to feel forced into coming with Ed and I. That solves nothing and goes against EVERYTHING that we have sought to accomplish with the Community. Our first goal is to find out if we sink money into a program and website and domain name, if the Community would support us and come there and pay us a visit. We promise to give the same level of commitment to the Community there, as we have given over at Renderosity. Also, if Renderosity still provides a service to the Community, then it would be best that the Community also visit there. Do I see them as honestly being able to provide that support? Find individuals that will work 17 hour days, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, for the same treatment that Ed and I received or less.... GOD I HOPE NOT!! If someone is considering it, BE CAREFUL!!! It happened to Willow and Grey, it happened to Ed and I... odds don't look good in your favor... just my opinion, I could be wrong... but.... But if Renderosity does offer support that the Community needs, why should any of you suffer losing that support due to loyality to Ed or I. I could never ask that of any of you. Edgenet took control of Renderosity from Ed and I, we are powerless there... but not here, here on Renderotica, I hold the power of control and EN has been locked out of the server. I will still pay for the software that I use, that is only fair, but at first chance even R'otica will get the new software package being made. As for you images, freestuff or Online store items, if you do NOT wish them to be on Renderosity or in control of Edgenet, I ask that you tell TIM (tchoate@edgenet.com) that you wish those items to be removed FOREVER via e-mail, express to them failure to do so will be termed as violation of copyright of your property!! I have no control over these things anymore, because of that, it will be up to you. Even if I had done it MYSELF for you, Edgenet keeps a backup of it and would only put it back up. According to the contract, which may be voided now by Tim, I am supposed to continue to pull a profit off of Renderosity till Nov. 4th 2000 and be in charge of paying the artists out of the check they ship me. As I said, THIS MAY NO LONGER BE THE CASE and if you want to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that you get what is due or owed to you, you should address this issue with Tim Choate from Edgenet (tchoate@edgenet.com) and ask him, or ask to have your stuff pulled. Ed and I believe we have a means for the Venders, who decides to stick with Ed and I, a way to continue to have their products purchased, without losing any income. I will have more information regarding that on Monday. Either way, your goals are our primary concern, I only hope that if Edgenet finds someone to take mine and Ed's place, that it will be their's as well. Will it be Edgenet's? I think Ed and I have spoken enough about that... don't you? Thanks for the support and e-mail!! Love ya!! Jack

Forwarded from the Poser list on Egroups: From: Charles Taylor Delivered-To: mailing list poser@egroups.com Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:28:10 -0700 Reply-To: poser@egroups.com Subject: Re: [poser] OT: Renderosity I've setup a new group for discussion of this issue. And once thing settle down, The Poser community in general http://www.egroups.com/group/TRenderForums Egroups just went down for maintanence and won't be back up until 5am PDT. Sigh. MW

Well doesn't this all just SUCK royally! For what it's worth, Jack, you can believe that I'll be anxiously waiting to see what you come up with. Cheers, Mike

Well now...it seems that everyone has had moderator status removed without even so much as a email. Now I was willing to give Edgenet a chance to speak there piece. Now I say fuckem, they don't even have the decency to tell the people that have been helping to run this place that they are removing their status, they just do it. How fucking rude. Jack , Ed you guys have my support as well, I was gonna wait and find out the facts , but to hell with that Edgenet has shown how they treat people quite clearly. To Edgenet/Tim , please delete all backups of my images from your system. Chris

ARADTech - Please see our response in the community forum. Tim

Well....Ima Small Fry....But Here's My Two Cents..For Those That Care. 1. I Knew About Edgenet Previously Doing This To Willow, Albiet Second Hand From Comments In The Poser NG. No, It Should Not Be a Surprise They Would Do It Again. In Some Aspects It May Be "Legal" To Screw Someone Over Like They Seem To have Twice Now...Thus Screwing Us Over...In The Name Of Greed....But It Is Certainly Not Ethical. But Hey, What Are Ethics When Money Is Concerned Right? 2. Personally I Don't Know Ed Or Jack....But You Know What? They've Done a Lot For us...Just Like Willow Did. What Is Happening To Them And The WAY It Is Happening Is Just Plain Wrong. I Cannot See How Edgenet COuld Possibly Justify It Other Than Stepping Up And Saying "Okay, We Admit We Don't Give a Crap About the Community And We Are In It For The Cash". Well Congrats....Cause Your Fan Base Is About To Be Non Existant. 3. Sure Edgenet Provided The Space For Rosity...so That Means That AOL..Or Xoom....Or Wherever i Post My Images (Although There Are Sites That Attempt To Do This) Get To Take The Credit And Profit From my Works? Um....Hell No? They Provided SPACE. What Else? Ed, Jack, Legume, The Moderators, And US....Take Note....US...Even Little Small Model Maker Me....BUILT This Place. Without This Space it Would Have Been Built Somewhere Else. Because Of Who Built It. Not Edgenet. WE Did. Blessings To It's New Home. And May Edgenet Find Someone Else Good Enough To Run The Remains. Good Luck. 4. Personally I Am Removing All My Meager Stuff Here In Protest Of The Rather Curt And Acerbic Treatment Of Ed And Jack. Not To mention The Poor Ethics And Tact That Edgenet Displays With Each Move. Without US....You Got Zip..Nadda. Like ARADTech Above, I Formaly Request You Destroy All Backup Data Concerning My Material On This Site. 5. All I Can Say Further...As If It Was Not Evident Ed..Jack...The Others In The Community, Aside From The "Host Provider" Is That I Fully Support a Jack And Ed Run Site. Without Them....You Can Kiss Me Gone. Keep The Chin Up Guys.....Minor Setback...We'll Have a New And Better Place. I Truly Believe that And Thanks FOr What you Have Done In The Past Year Jack, Ed, And Everyone, Aside From "AssNet". Thanks Willow, Should You Read This, For Our Roots. Many Of us Do Not Forget.

By The Way, Delete My Posts...Ban Me...I Really Don't Care. If That's The Best You Can Do...Well..It's Sad. It's Not Hard To Get Another Alias On Here Anyway, Now Is It?

Sigh.... Keep in touch JAck & Ed.... I'll post on the egroup.... CHeers

Good Admins are hard to come by. Which is why everyone is getting a little irked and the changeing of the guard. We all know this doesnt mean the end of our good buddies J&E...just means they wont be HERE anymore acting as big brother. The new big brother is home from college and wants his room back. The new admins better be as cool and "in touch" with the people as J&E were/are. They posted to the galleries, gave their opinions in the forums, and worked their asses off to make this site great FOR the people who use it. So my request to Edgenet is this, DO NOT DO A TOTAL RENOVATION OF THIS SITE. The layout is fine, posting free stuff people have made is easy, and posting art work in the galleries is that too. By renovating the whole site (like many new owners love to do Ie: Hotmail & MSN) only makes things worse and basicly gives the previous owners the cyber finger saying you never liked what they strived so hard for. And be "hands on" with the users of the site. Dont just post to announce new things for your company or new contests to boost your company with others...shoot the $h!t with us. Give us your opinions on Barney the singing dinosaur, or tell us you dont like cheese. Thats how J&E became our buddies even though most of us have never really talked to them personally. They were PART of the group, not just the mediators saying "None of that" "Heres what we are going to do" etc. They came to us and said "Hey could we not do that please?" and "How would you all think if we did..." They based the site needs on our opinions and THAT is what makes great Admins of a site. So i say follow their lead and all the flack about the change will die down and people will love the site once more. Dont follow their lead and change everything about how the site is run, prepare for more people to chew you out. J&E dont seem to hold a grudge and i'm sure are kinda relieved that some of the workload has been lifted for a while (Take a vacation, boys. You deserve it) so prove yourself Edgenet. Show us you can do the great things J&E did. But you're not off to a great start. Deleting posts, and changing ALL the monitors of the forums to members of YOUR team is NOT a great reflection on how you plan on making this site good. It kinda says "This site is ALL us now, so conform!" To stop surfing to Renderosity is impossible for any of us...not contributing to Renderosity is quite easy. And the contributions to a site are what make the site...not hits. Remember that, next time you wanna change somthing J&E did because YOU think its better. The users of this site think its as good as it can get. You change one thing and the masses will revolt. As you can tell, i'm one of those who isnt welcoming the change of power, though i DO know it happens from time to time. But i'm a libra and i like things to stay in ballance...but am willing to give anyone a chance to prove themselves. If you've got drastic changes in the works for this site, ask first. Like so many have said "This is OUR site" so why not ASK the users for their opinions on changes to their site. Treat us like board members. Make diagrams, flow charts, speaches etc and show them to us. Then get feed back on it. If the feedback says "Hey thats great", try it out. If the feedback says "Oh go stuff it up your wazoo!", scrap the idea and go back to the drawing board. And thats what made J&E so loved here...you wanna be as cool as them, Edgenet. I know you do. ;) -X (on the recipe for a good web site)

To Quote Tim: "Nobody has been locked out of this community nor will they be. It's my hope that we can have a very public debate of how best to proceed with this site. I hope even Jack will join in." If this is so...why was my earlier post removed from this forum?

I'm with the new group. My days here end as soon as Jack and Ed get their new site up. I was going to post some models and textures here, but now I'm going to wait for Jack and Ed's site. You can blab all you want about this company making the community and funding it blah blah blah. However, it's the people that started it, and when they leave to go elsewhere you know you'll like what they're doing.

Well, the ownership of the database IS the point of contention actually... The ORIGINAL member database was created by Roy Riggs for Willow, but (apparently) never given to her (though she thought so). The second database, the "current one" was also (if I understand correctly) created by Roy Riggs, who was working for EdgeNet (and not Dark Souls, Inc.) at the time he created it - though he created it specifically for Renderosity. The DATA belongs to Renderosity and thus Dark Souls (unless they were TRULY inept in creating their contract a year ago), if I understand the situation correctly, but the DataBase - the code for inputting, accessing and storing the data - is PROBABLY (I'd have to see licensing agreements etc. to be 100% sure) the property of EdgeNet. (The company I work for is going through a similar dispute, so I'll be watching what happens in both places with great interest, BTW).