I dont know perhaps it is the storms brewing here in missouri...dont know but I have come to the end of a rope. HEADS up poser artists ...ok actually I guess all artists. for YOUR OWN safety do yourselves a favor. 1-when making a piece. make a folder. save your named PZ3 file there. 2-in same folder{for ease that way you know where the pieces are all together for the same pic do this for each pic}save your raw render(s) 3-when doing post work save one{may need more if they progress} psd file with each step used to gain the finished work.{do not merge or flatter before saving} WHY???? because sooner or later in your life as an artist someone somewhere will make an accusation against your abilities or your work. This way you can say "heck no I can show you how I did this" no questions..no ifs ands or buts. also doing these steps will help you with tweeking them out at a later date..or adding to them...etc. yes you will probably need a new harddrive..but heck get an external one. much easier that way.

Did someone accuse you of something?

I already do that, but no one has ever asked me how I do it or said anything like that....probably cause my artistry is.........well.........not what it could be or what it should be....LOL....don't think anyone would be that interested in mine, but that is a good heads up...I take it you have been challenged? Sharen

no not me this unfortunatly is due to the thread about frodos choice. to me it could of been all averted if those steps ..such simple things had been done. no one would be hurt or feeling hurt or accused ..none of the tension would be there. and everyone should do that with there work. I have been doing things like that for ages..thought everyone did. but...just. so much tension and grief could of been avoided. does that make sence? or am I just loopy? {ok I know I am loopy but you know what I mean}

Well that si different. That person basically merged a photo into a render. Pretty obvious. Except instead of overlaying they called it "painting". hehe If you use your own work exclusively such documentation isn't really neccesary. I think the best way for most people to avoid tension and grief is to be honest and not steal, cheat or lie. Documentations is always a good idea too though.

"because sooner or later in your life as an artist someone somewhere will make an accusation against your abilities or your work." Good advice if you are worried about intellectual property issues. But otherwise, why should you care what they think? Was this an intellectual property matter? Or was someone denigrating your work? If the latter, just ignore them.

Yes, I agree with Darkel. I always save everything to CD, but mainly so I can go back and fix it up later. However, this advice is particularly good if you make a render that is an almost perfect copy of a frame from an LOTR movie. It's also good advice for merchants doing textures, to avoid any accusations of plagiarism.

Yes Pheonix I know. it is just can you imagine all of it could of been avoided. there would not be a thread with a hundred some odd posts. It is just..imagine. simple to pop open a file and go see this this and that layer ..then you do this ... so much tension and questioning would be avoided. just ...sooner or later someone will ask...accuse..or make some remark. and in this day and age...it is beter to be safe then sorry. it also helps in copyright disputes. not just film disputes. ~sighs~ so simple. so easy..and so much could of been avoided.

That is exactly why I get so annoyed when everyone wants to hush up infringement and sweep copyright issues into the back room out of the public eye....cuz then noone learns anything. Most of these situations can eb avoided through education but that isn't going to happen when the info is buried, hidden, or in some remote location noone goes to. -Anton

Anton If you've live as long as I have,you know... No one ever really learns anything. It just goes round again.

O.k. what was this hub bub started about...what happened with this Frodo's choice thing? -Kirsten

I always make seperate folders for my projects and keep everything from PZ3 to final image in them. I do that to keep track of my stuff. Never have thought of those issues...

Kirsten: It's about this thread here: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1715332 Someone entered a DAZ contest with an rather blatant rip, and until now, as Dark Elegance said, hasn'r replied to accusations et all with a single word or proof that it wasn't a rip.

The issue with Frodo's Choice isn't whether or not it was done with a morph, etc. The issue is that it's an extremely close copy of a copyrighted image. Whether or not the artist painted it, used a morph, can show a .pz3, or what, the fact remains that it's a copy of a work that s/he has no right to copy. That's what "copyright" means. "Right" to "copy". It's not limited to photocopiers, cameras, and scanning. If you can reproduce a copy of something with a Wacom and Photoshop, if it's really a good copy (which this is, right right down to the precise lighting, folds of the fabric, design of the jewelry, placement of hair), it's a violation the moment it's published (for personal and private purposes, you can make copies of things; it's distribution that gets you in trouble). bonni

Beside all law and copyright issues: Copying is a good method to learn something. Art teachers and instruction books often show step by step how to do a special technique. If learning this way you will maybe do a more or less exact copy of the teachers example. Though more often you'll end up with your personal version of the example. This is learning. I think a person who considers himself an artist, should not publish a copy of a piece created by someone else before. He should only publish artworks that he has c-r-e-a-t-e-d by himself.

BekaVal: Copying for educational purposes, your own or others', is considered "fair use." Publishing such a copy, even if the original artist is credited and the image is called "Copy of so-and-so's image (insert someone else's work here) without that artist's express consent, is NOT.

Triarius: I didn't say something else.

This belongs in copywrite forum. Bla-Bla I checked the morphs and they work. Would you write in the Posts, that have already judged you? No I never knew her till I ask for the Morphs. And she nicely sent them to me. She wrote how she did this picture with her post in our gallery. People's feelings are important. You all have beated this topic to death.

Well she shouldn't have cloned in the Newline screen cap.

Some of us just create images for fun. For me, this is a hobby and not a source of income. I don't sell anything that I create and so far have not had anything I've thought good enough or original enough to even post in free stuff. If I saved every image/.pz3/.vob I ever created, I would need a seperate room just to store the backup cd's!! However.....if I enter a contest, I do just as you suggest, in case there are any questions as to method used. There is always the possibility of "sour grapes", especially in contests. There will always be someone who "pushes the envelope" or outright violates a rule or copyright. And there will always be some who simply like to stir things up by accusing others of doing something wrong. Sometimes it's hard to discern what is really going on.

As a footnote to my previous comment, I do need to say that I have enough respect for the originator of the Frodo thread posted above, to believe that she knows what she's talking about in this particular instance. Just for the record.

I always save everything anyway - for my own good. I 'Save As' all the time, so I create new PZ3s in a long string. And I keep them all. So one scene under development may lead to 25 PZ3s (or PZZs) and at least as many test renders. And during postwork I save everything in untold layers in Pshop - and never merge except to the finished jpg. And then I backup..... of course :o) So I can go back to any stage of development of any character or scene in the last SIX YEARS. I have thousands of PZ3s and test renders to look through when I need to find something or so. OK, it occupies a lot of disk space and DVDs and so on - but hell, disk space is cheap these days. Since I work with graphics, sound and video full time, I learned long ago to archive every single thing I do. I've never regretted it. And it's saved my skin many times. :] Fish

PLEASE this thread was not to start a new war!!!! this was to give people a heads up. to suggest how to avoid such problems in the future. Turtle I am sorry it was not to start a new thread in that means it was to open eyes and make sure that artists out there do protect themselves. Fish, I already have two hard drives {one a 40g the other 60g} and well over 100 cds with pz3,layered psds,etc etc etc. and that is just from a year or so of working with this medium. I think perhaps it would of best been said if you are doing the work for public viewing. please,,,it was just advice to avoid things like this in the future..just let this thread die now please?

DarkElegance Sorry, Didn't mean to sound so nasty, and yes I can see you want us all to watch, whats legal and whats not. I know from reading all this stuff, your not being mean. Now I'm out of here. :O) runs~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~back to Poser computer.

Sorry, but I got wind of this fiasco a bit late. ;) Am I correct in my observation that so far only ONE person has come out and said they tested the morphs? Out of the dozens of people who have commented in this thread and the other one, only one single person has claimed to have verified the actual morphs? Daz claimed to have only seen the original RENDER, which really doesn't prove anything anyway.

Well if you're not correct we both missed something. The only person to have claimed to have gotten the actual morphs was Turtle, the poster right before you in this thread, and he didn't post any comparable images in spite of some confusing posts to the contrary. I found the whole thread rather sickening in that it has grown so huge and yet it has illiceted practically no response from the main parties involved. IE: Nobody from DAZ has said whether or not a PZ3 or OBJ from the artwork in question has been submitted for comparisons to them after many observations that either of these would be ample proof of the work being done. And two: The Original Author/ess has not said anything in their own defense.

Some of us learned long ago to keep saved off versions of work in progress...under sequential names... simply because the computer WILL eat it if it thinks you are not looking. There is nothing quite as tasty as a 40 layer PhotoShop file with histogram garnish. Some of us also work professionally, where having backups means that when the producer changes his mind about a detail, you don't have to start from scratch. "I liked it better the other way" is not what an artist wants to hear, unless the artist can call up the old version. Some of us have published articles or tutorials, where people want to know how a particular project was accomplished. When writing, it helps jog the memory when you can look at the files. Some of us have also worked for decades. I don't have copies of absolutely everything I have done, but I can pull out almost all the animations/art I did for Kings Quest 4 or Ultima Underworld 2 or Altered Destiny or System Shock or WorldsAway, etc. and etc.. I have almost all sketches and thumbnails and PMTs or prints or photocopies of my 2d work since 1968. (I hold copyright in over 400 pieces of my own finished work.) When I look at the early work, it reminds me of how far I've come... which gives hope for the next few decades. (By the time I'm 80, if this migraine goes away so that I can plunge into work again, I ought to be remarkable.) We all need markers, like measuring height on a doorjam, to tell us that, yes, we have achieved something. I wouldn't try to create files as an alibi for theft... that argument would be as leaky as the ones in murder mysteries. However, keeping backups is always a good idea for numerous and good reasons. Carolly

I dunno 'bout that Carolly, a 300 Meg Bryce file is pretty darn tasty to my CPU every now and then when I've forgotten to do an incremental save in the past hour or so. LOL! I'll bet it's just as tasty if not tastier than a 40 layer PSP file. In other words. I agree totally! Oh, and I must say I enjoyed KQ4 and UU2 emmensely! Kudos to your handiworks there!

:chuckle: Tonight I was helping another artist with a file. 819MB. 2 layers in PhotoShop and a histogram mask adjustment thingy. Admittedly it will print out at maybe 3 foot by 4 foot like her last photo... if we can just get PS to flatten the layers correctly. It is just two layers. Two very dense layers. But, yes, I saved that pup off under a couple of different names before messing with it... knowing that it would crash and burn if I didn't. Losing my own work is bad, losing hers would have been devastating. Bryce is pretty crunchy, too... nice tasty rock candy with colorful sky topping. Yum! A little syrupy water to wash it down, and you have a recipe for a contented computer. Thank you for the kind thoughts. Those were good projects with wonderful, creative team members. Small projects where artists and programmers worked with each other, and where game play was the most important part of the game. :sigh: I was co-designing Inherit the Earth, it was 4 a.m., and we were having a giggle-fit over a proposed plot point when someone suggested that we were having too much fun. (We were also a bit short of sleep.) The response was that if we didn't have fun making the game, nobody would have fun playing it. With all the licenses and sequels and monster teams, I think that element may have been forgotten. I don't want to play a movie or pull the puppet strings of some actor, I want to be me doing the heroic deeds or silly stuff or exploring around the corners. UU2 allows for that sort of feeling. Carolly

Yeah, this whole new "Immersion Into Another World" format of game playing seems to be sucking the fun out of "Games" these days. People take these new worlds too serious and loose sight of the fact that they're "Supposed" to be having fun! LOL!