This is questions 3 & 4 out of 5 I'm asking. I'm getting somewhere with all of these, truly, and they are important to know. I'm spreading them out so that I can keep the information cleaner. In this case, I'm interested in knowing what about the library and the Figure set up system can be imporoved. THere are some serious limitations in this area, however, that need to be considered. Chief among them is the boning system in place is certain to NOT be going away in Poser 6. So suggestions to change that are non-starters. No, this has to be something that works within the way poser is set up as it is currently. Poser 7 may be a drastic change, but not Poser 6, which is going for stability. So what we're looking at is more or less the methodology and annoyances. What would make this easier and improve it in use, without altering much of the core system? As always, all comments are welcome, and very much wanted, and very much appreciated. :)

I'll answer the library bit (I hope I got you right) We need a specific folder for MAT poses and preferably the possiblilty to make out OWN folders, also at top level (like Figures, Poses, Hands ect)

I'd like to see the library system as a separate, user customizable program/process, supporting multiple windows, and drag-and-drop capabilities. Or just enable Drag-and-drop from external programs such as P3dO, Windows Explorer, or Power Desk. That way there'd be no more problems with 256-folder-limit, truncated file names, unreadable labels, etc. And folder organization would be totally a matter of personal taste. . . . I'm sure there's 10,001 reasons why it's impossible for technical/economic reasons, but that's my concept of an ideal usable library system. . .

Library System: I'd like to see this expanded greatly so that you can do all the normal file operations in your library - move, rename, cut and paste, copy etc. Basically, I ought to be able to organise my whole library without ever leaving Poser. I'd also love to be able to keep multiple libraries open at once somehow. If I'm doing a scene that a person and an animal in it for example, I'd like to be able to keep my set of poses for the animal open and keep my set of poses for the person open in such a way that I can switch quickly between them without having to go through all that effort involved in finding the relevant folders and moving to them. A bookmarking system so I can get to my most frequently used library folders quickly would be good too. Figure set-up system: I still use PHI files in preference to the set-up room. As long as PHI file support is retained, I'm happy.

Leather Guy, the only problem with having a library system that is totally customizable is that it would be a nightmare for content creators to package their products. But I agree that a seperate folder for MAT files is essential. A choice between different displays would be nice, sort of like windows with a choice between thumbnails (the PNG pictures) or just the titles. The ability to save the rendered image as the thumbnail would be good, so that you can see transparencies in the thumbnails of the library (I know this is possible with a work-around, but it could be easier). As far as figure set up goes, the ability to properly name parts in the program, without having to hack the CR2 would be good. Deleting a file from the library should ask you if you want to delete the associated files, like textures and *.obj files as well. You will be amazed at how many things are left behind everytime you delete something. An undo for delete!!!!!! Curiouslabs should also include some pre-made skeleton bones for figure creation, like a four legged beast, four wheeled vehicle, two wheeled vehicle with the right rotation orders etc. Very simple to make and include, and could save some time. In the figure creation process, such as making clothes, some way of marking on the PNG or CR2 for which figure this is made, or who it will conform to. Like the comment tab # you have in most programming languages, but something standardised so that everyone will use it and we won't be wondering who that dress was for that you downloaded three months ago that won't conform to any of your models.

I'd like a "stop/cancel command" button that actually stops and cancels commands instead of locking up Poser. This applies to libraries when you have the misfortune of opening a cr2 and Poser can't find the obj or texture file. I know there's utilities like CorrectReference to prevent this, but still you should be able to tell Poser to stop its search.

That's what Poser's latest SR is supposed to do. It works well for me, I never have that problem anymore.

Aye, but Rammy's usin P4. ;) And in that, there is nothing so frustrating as crashin the proggie everytime some newbie merch screws up the filepath in a paid for or free product. I know. I've done it far more than my fair share of times...

Curious Labs should just buy Correct Reference and make it an integrated part of Poser 6. And buy P3DO explorer while they are busy. And use that for the library system. And UV Mapper. And buy CR2 Edit. And Morph Manager. And The Tailor. And Clothes Convertor. And integrate everything into the most unwieldly bloated program ever to hit the streets. And then they should bundle some free ware programs like Wings and an image editor and a video editor and everything together. And then hire ten thousand people just to handle the help desk for all the problems that will arise. OK, that was a joke, but some seriousness in there as well.

lol -- yes, it is a joke, and yes there is some seriousness in it, and I'm going to dwell a teeny bit on that.

The first Poser survey done recently (there have been two) by CL included, specifically, a section relating directly to several of the applications mentioned above.

now, having written surveys like that, and having analzed surveys like that, and since I'm going to be doing one myself like that as well, I can say that it most Definitely wasn't in there just for the fun of putting it there.

lol

Tailor and clothes convertor, wings, the image editor, the video editor, the 10K support people (paid 10 cents an hour and properly outsourced to southern makemerichistan) -- well, not likely.

Poser already has extremely customized UVMapping capability built in, but it's a pain to use, and it's not very transferable (it stays in the poser format file). UV Mapping is essential (an I do prefer UV Mapper Pro to ultimate unwrap -- I just wish it had UU's import/export and relax feature. Then I'd drop DeepUV).

But does it really need to be in the end use program, which is where I think Poser is starting to head (it's how it's used, at any rate)? No -- it belongs more properly to the creation end. Something that combined the capabilities of UVMapper Pro with Wings would be pretty damned handy on the creation end -- an excellent developers tool.

And something that Shade is capable of already. It's just not free ;)

P3DO is wonderful. It's sorta tied to IE, though. including those generic cpabilities would include development of a new browser underlayer, and, well, browsers aren't really the most stable of things. But it is definitely somethign they need to do long term. Absolutely. Poser 6? A stability release from a new team that wants to get it right for the first time in three versions? mmm, maybe.

P5 already has some aspects of correct reference in it, as I discovered quite by accident while testing some products. It's very stubborn about what file it uses -- even when you use a "new" cr2 that points to a different obj in a different runtime -- if they share the same name, it sticks witht eh first one you introduced it to. At least they did fix that damnable bug.

On this one, though, I'm going to say make sure the bugfix stays put. Getting into fixing content developer's mistakes isn't really what they should be looking at. Perhaps an awareness of file locations when a file is moved would be good, though. in other words, don't fix it -- but once it's in, if it gets moved, make sure where it's moved to is recorded. Kinda hard without using a sorta of relational db, but not impossible. I mean, hey, the Registry does it...

CR2 edit I am definitely into. Or at least some sort of internal editing process available to the end user.Perhaps a tab on the properties panel revealed using some sort of "advanced menus" command. nothing fancy, mind you -- simply raw access to the exposed text with the ability to recieve standard cut paste commands and such. 7 could expand on functionality.

All of them would make life easier for content creators, but they may do so at the cost of usability to new users, creating a barrier of entry in the form of a steeper learning curve. Since it appears we'll have three levels of Poser, that's not too bad, bud let's run with the general idea of a single one for now.

All could be worked into the program overall -- but which ones are "new features" and which ones are "improvements"?

Message edited on: 06/25/2004 03:10

My main annoyances are first of all (Ii alreay mentioned this) adding to those checkmark and double checkmark icons an Alt-Click (to change) and Shift-click (to add to) option. And also an active toolbar on which you can easily select whatever you used in your scene. This can replace the figure and actor dropdowns at the bottom of the studio window. Why? Because when working with, say, MissNonsense for V3 by merchant XYZ and then go on creating, it can be necessary to go back to tis char. several times, and i would be great not to have to delve into the library but to be able to select directly from a character icon (with dropdown list) from th active toolbar. So I ee this having several grouped icons that can replace some of the outdated groups (like cameras etc) that only take place on your desktop. This toolbar would be active, meaning it would change with every object you choose. For example: M3, Posette, Temple Ruins, a chair, etcetc). They would include the options that you have chosen for this item, including the textures if those come with MAT files. I know CL does not support MAT, but let's face it: they are a reality, and can make workflow better. (not always).

Aeneas, I didn't really comment on this in the last q 'cause I knew this question was coming up ;) I do appreciate your reposting it. Definitely need some better means for selecting figures from among multiples -- Poser was never designed to deal with several (ie, more than 3) figures at one time, and I personally think that in P6, CL should not only address the stability points, but enable that shift to supporting multiple figures better. (And I note that within Poser, conforming items are a "figure" to it) The value of the program has changed since it was first introduced, and we, as a community, have certainly reshaped the manner in which it is used -- both by our selves, and by by others.

You know, a customizable library wouldn't be that much of a nightmare. In fact, it could make things a lot simpler for developers. Consider this; there are really only two types of library file in Poser: Those which call geometry and those which do something to the geometry. That's why the P4/PP trick of putting poses into the Camera and Hand libraries works. Hair and Props are pretty much interchangeable, too, athough some hair would sit better in Figures but that's a pretty silly distintction between an object with bones and one without them. The only fixed references you need are Geometries and Textures. If a developer has these paths correct, their own folder could sit pretty much anywhere. Think about how many times you have moved MAT poses without the world exploding. It seems the only other files which get really upset about being moved are the Delta Refs. So, my reasoning is, it could be done quite easily by having one subcategory for geometry based files (Characters, Hair, Props and so forth) and another subcategory for modifier (pose, MAT etc) files. Leave the rest entirely up to the user.

Good point. Definitely will factor that in.

Actually, even a distinction between library files that call geometry and that that dont is not necessary and not helpful for the user. The only things that need fixed paths are the textures and the geometry itself. Most oft the time, I what to keep all library files of a product in one single folder. It would be so much easier if, for example a outfit that consist of a figure, some props, and a couple of different Mat-poses could stay in a single folder. Poser can determine the type of file from the extension and display a small icon for it with the thumbnail. Moving content between Folders is a muss (drag and drop between two simultaneous open folders would be great). I think poser needs a inbuilt system for installing content, that automatically places geometry and texture files in the right place. It should also build a database of file dependencies that would be useful fro moving and removing content. Poses (including Mat-, Mor-and such Poses) should include a tag with a reference for witch figure they are intended. That information should go into this database also. You should be able to search and filter your library for Poses for a single figure. It would also be great, if the author of a library file could include a comment/helptext in it that can be displayed in poser (maybe on a right click on the thumbnail). That would be much better than all this readme files that get always lost. And change the action for a double-click on a figure from Change to Add! Stefan

Thanks for your input stefan! It's not so much about what Poser can read and can't read, it's more about the ease of use for a beginning user and the flexibility for the new user. A content installer is often requested, with the only issues being that it would not be functional in all cases (DAZ's installers, certain brokerage's requirements, existing content) and would generally make it harder to change content locations (right now my 7 runtimes are spread over four drives and two separate instalations of Poser. Install to that? The way I want it?) -- too many variables. inclusion of a database is an additional feature. With luck and polite persistence, that sort of system might make P7, but P6 is out of the question (it is a stability release with minimal new features and additinal improvements). As I noted earlier, a db is absolutely the way to go with content if a tracking system is going to be employed. Awesome idea: The comment in the thumbnails. Absolutely awesome. It's even permissible within the format spec for png! And it's cross platform too! Oh, very cool! big applause on that one. Merchants love stuff like that, lol. oh man, that's one I'd really like to see! Not big enough for the readme, info -- but it would allow better visibility of limited info (56 character max, I think, but I'd have to re-examine the spec). Change to Add -- that's on a lot of wishlists :)

I dont think more freedom in organizing the runtime will be hard to users. Anyone who uses a computer is familiar with organizing stuff in folders (or at least should be). The additional restrictions Poser puts on the user are what it makes hard. While I think my suggestion would not make it harder for beginners, I would focus more on optimal workflow for experienced users anyway. One is a experienced user for longer than a beginner. I rather have a bit stepper learning curve than an annoyance forever. I think the installer should work with any existing zip file, because all required Path information is included in the library files. These Daz installers are a pain anyway and for me, progress is more important than backward compatibly in the most cases. It should install the content in a default folder and make it easy for the user to move it around. Poser itself should manage all file dependencies while moving the content, including between runtimes and drives. But that may be a wish to big for P6. I have no problem with shifting the content database to a later release, but I think eventually it will the way to go. I was thinking about putting the comments in the library files, not in the thumbnails. Then the size would be no problem. On a right click on a thumbnail, poser should read it from the file and display it in a help window. But maybe your idea is easier to implement. Stefan

I agree with SamTherapy and quinlor that a customisable library would indeed be great. It would solve a lot of problems to find the items that came with a certain package if all were in one folder. Otoh, I don't exactly like the idea of putting pose files in face folders as a fc2 is overwritten by any pz2 that is applied later on. So I was told to simply change the extension back to pz2 and put them in the Pose folder. If indeed it is simply a question of extension, it cannot be that hard to mix them together... Most items you can buy can come with things that can be left where they are (like camera settings, light sets, poses...), and some that should be together like texture MATs, mesh-shaping MATs, props, (some props go in character now)... It is confusing to find eyes in props, and then also somewhere else, or hair in character and its textures in the Pose folder etc etc... In my opinion, it wouldbe easier and for a starting Poser user and a high-end one to get all hair in a hair folder, even if it has a character extension. It would indeed also be great if it were possible to add folders like "eyes", "architecture", "sets"(for example "Egypt", "SciFi", "Indoor"), Animals, Creatures,... Renaming should not be that difficult: Poser uses xml, and any webpage has a name, and a title. Make that title renameable, provide a good set to begin with, and the library can become much more handy to work with. Internally, the name of the page is used.

Absolutely agree about the freedom -- it is a most diffuclt balance indeed to maintain. Because of impending competition from a lower priced product, one has to try and minimize the learning curve, though, which is why I'm sorta leaning towards making it easier on P6. P7 is totally up for grabs, though :D Not all zips are properly formatted (I am terribly guilty in a popular product I put together of this one :() This is particularly true of freebies, which don't have to be. Also, different brokerages have slightly different rules for ancillary files, and then there is the nightmare of the INJ/REM stuff and so forth. Now, all that said, P-installer works awesomely, and only hangs up if folks really put things together screwy. lol So it's very possible, and will likely make the cut as a second tier suggestion :) yeah, the db really is kinda big for 6, which is a "clean-up" release before this new team decides wha they want to do with the program for P7. Since any major change is gonna take a while to do, P6 is going to need to be a very stable, rock solid, highly usable release with as little potential for new disasters as possible. That's what they are shooting for, at least, lol. So the db, which I think really is the best way to go too, considering the overall path of computers in general, would likely need to wait until P7, so they can develop a strong reliable pasring system to deal with any of the new stuff they come out with for 7 (which will most certainly have several new features, lol). parsing the file for a comment header... yeah, maybe. Can't hurt -- let's add it in too... adding in a suggestion delivered via another one so everyone can see it that pertains to some other questions -- just so it's recorded: Dockable dials and a spot/spray rendering option.

Aeneas -- in fact, it's becuase Poser uses XML that I'm thinking a lot of possible things can be done -- I was very keen on the general interface questions for that reason. The libraries, though, are a bit more tricky to deal with since they are not purely XML based from what I can tell -- the layout that you see is, but the way that Poser interacts with them is a bit harder coded, so that might involve some deep changes to the core exectuable as opposed to an external dll or similar extension. And that means a can of worms they'll have to deal with already, but don't want to start swallowin' whole, lol. That's part of the reason they didn't change much about the "top level" files to begin with in P5. doesn't mean they won't go there, just that I'm not sure they'll want to just now.

I think that Poser 6 should be a free upgrade for Poser 5 users as an apology for all the continuing problems that still exist in spite of service pack releases and rising expense to the user. I'd love a more usable file system, I agree that CorrectReference should be purchased and installed (I've got stuff I just can't find even after installing using the file structure in the zip file), and I agree on the stop/undo/redo. Could I toss into the fray an actually relevant users manual and tutorial set? Those mini-tutorials in P5 tell the low-level user just enough to really thrash their systems and make them put the software on the shelf.

Cedarwolf, "I think that Poser 6 should be a free upgrade for Poser 5 users as an apology for all the continuing problems that still exist in spite of service pack releases and rising expense to the user. " .. isn't germaine, hon. I understand the frustration. Regarding the user manual, would you care to comment on my other proposal? (hint hint, wink wink, nudge nudge) Huggs...

As a more general question/answer: what would make you buy an upgrade to Poser5, I would include (seems that was promised for 5) full export to all important 3D apps: Max, Lightwave, Cinema4D, Maya,...If they only go Vue and that Japanese prog, I skip and hope for 7. I'd also make it modular. A basic app to replace whatsitcalled, and expansion modules for a Renderer, Dynamic cloth, Hair,... Otoh: if I can easily import into my 3D app, I won't need Poser lights and renderer anymore. For 7 I'd say see that weightmaps are accepted for the joints. And between 6 and 7 start a line with meshes that rival err...Barbie and Ken...and give these for free to calm frustrated P5 users... (defend youself with the weapons the other guy uses...)

Although it does go outside the scope of the thread: The "promised" exporters, from the start, were always noted to be externally developed tools (meaning that curious labs was not going to develop them, but that other companies were going to). So far we have: Mover (for Vue), TransPoser (for Carrara), Bodystudio by Reiss Studios (Maya and 3DSMax). Reiss Studios is working on the lightwave plug in and one other (and there is some conjecture that they are being held up in the LW development by the LW team) and just recently we found out that kuroyume is developing his own personal "content transfer" tool (my wording, not his) for C4D (it looks very cool. Sorta negates the need for Poser, in fact). So of the list you gave, 2 are already possible, and two are still coming. But Curious Labs never said they would make them. That is most likely not going to change -- curious labs does not develop plug-ins any longer. That japanese prog, Shade, is actually really cool. I've played around with an earlier version for the last couple years, and in my estimation it's more than on par with 3DSMax and Lightwave. Cheaper, too. Poser 6 will likely only have some limited transfer ability with it. Poser 7 will be much more integrated with it. Modularity is very unlikely, even in P7. The rooms methodology is likely to carry forward. While it is a weakness, it is part of Poser's nature -- a "core concept" if you will. Modularity belongs to the other guy. I'm hoping for a hybrid bone and weightmap system in P7, myself -- something truly cool. If I had the company, I would definitely say: make bones like everyone else only wishes they had, and make them easy. Well, given they sold the rights to the P4 figures off, they would have to farm out the manufacture of them again. Hopefully this time they wouldn't hamper development. I still have to wonder at what Cubed would have produced had they not been sorta hamstrung...

For the libraries, I think there should be a division between the logical contents of the libraries and the physical location of the content of the libaries. I'd like to be able to put my library content anywhere and have it be available for access in the library. By default, things could be installed to default/known locations and the library could pick them up as they do now. In addition, I'd like to also be able to TELL the library where some things are, so that I could put them wherever I want - think of it like creating symbolic links in a file system. Think of the possibilities! Basically what I'm asking for is a function to add to a library's content listing while inside the program which will let me navigate to wherever my target content is and allow me to instruct the program to include that target content in the current library. I can see predefining the top level library categories, and restricting the kinds of things that can go in them (probably necessary for program efficiency and stability). But I would like the ability to create whatever and however many subcategories. In truth the program should not care exactly where my files are when they need to access them as long as they can access them. As I mentioned before I also want the library access to take up as little screen real estate as possible. I don't need to see the icons most of the time - I usually know what it is I want from the library without looking at the thumbnail. Unzipped

Oh, I heartly second that idea of having a separate folder for MAT poses. As well as being able to create your own Folders at top level. Latexluv

On a Mac one can drag library files all over the place. I do it in the Finder, and not when Poser is running. But part of managing a Runtime is keeping it trim and organized. Carolly

Some sort of "Setup Wizard" for the setup room would be fantastic. For example, you select an item for setup in the Pose room. Then you click the Setup Room tab. A wizard immediately opens and lists all of the groups in your objects. If you use the standard group names, it lists them on the left side of the wizard. Any "non-standard" group names appear on the right. First, the wizard asks if you want to use joint paramaters from an existing CR2. If yes, you select one from the library. If not, then it could ask if you want to create a skeleton using standard grouping and hierarchies. If you say yes, the boning system is automatically created for you, based on your geometry. (Sort of like an automatic PHI file would be). If you say no, it steps you through one by one and asks if you want to make each bone a child of an existing bone, or a child of a new bone ... and so on, and so on. I can dream, can't I? 8-D