Hi again, I'm starting a new thread because the original is quickly becoming buried behind subsequent threads. I wrote to the folks working on Horus, because some Renderosity members expressed doubt about this project in development. I received this very informative response: "Yes, you're right: our basic Horus3D software will be for free. We're still working on it, so that's the reason why there is still no download-section. But we will launch the downloadable beta test-version at the end of this year. Unfortunately we don't have the time at the moment to update our website. But we will as soon as possible. Now I try to give you a short overview of our Horus3D-Project. Horus3D will be a competitive product to Poser from Curious Labs. Our renderer is still under construction but it looks like it will be very fast! Our concept is to give away our basic software for free. This basic version consists of our own horus-renderer, import of Poser PZ3 and Wavefront OBJ files, editing the imported scenes, changing material settings, and saving your work in our own horus file format (which is oganized more intelligent as the Poser format and has a better compression rate). May be there will be some more features in the basic version, but this isn't quiet sure at the moment. But there will be much more funcionality that can be bought on demand. We call it modules. Modules will have a moderate pricing, so that you can just buy those features (in form of the modules) you need. So what are these modules? They can be very diffenrent and can be easily integrated into the Horus basic software. Following modules are planned and are partly under development: * Material module: advanced material stuff, like procedural textures, translucent materials, skin reflection models, hair reflection models and so on. * Hair module: realistic hair with highly optimized physics (especially for animations) and different parameters like stiffness, curlyness, wet/dry-factor etc. * Cloth module: Here you can dress up your figures like in a boutique. Many parameters will be available to make clothes look and behave realistically. * Pose module: Here you will find different preset poses, that you can use as is. But you can of course modify everything you want. Important is, that you can for example say "Grab that cup" and Horus will do the rest for you. So your figure will try to grab the cup if it's possible. Or you can say "sit down" and your character will try to sit down on whatever is beneath it. This is very helpful for animations. There are much more modules, but it's not clear how they will be defined in detail. So I think it's better you wait until we have more information about it. But the above mentioned modules will be available at the beginning of 2005. Our principle is, that you can use our software with a few settings. Without a bunch of parameters and every parameter with a different value range (like Poser). You should reach your goal easily and convenient. But if you want to control every detail, ok. This is possible too. ;-) Again: Sorry, that we didn't update the site of Horus3D since 1831 ;-), but we will do it in July (I swear). And, for all those who thought we gave up: no, we're still working on it. Very hard and with all the power we've got. But even programmers need a holiday! ;-) Thanx for your interest, have a good time and feel free to visit our site again." So, it may be a long ways down the road, but I'm sure this community will be excited when completion nears. :-)

Hmmmmm....

That's ambitious. "Walk over there." "Sit down." "Play chess." So I would assume you're going to make yet another thread when this one gets buried in 4 hours?

Thanks for the update Xoconostle. The HORUS project sounds interesting, I wish them sucess. The only thing that worries me is the HORUS file format, one of the few joys in my life is rumaging around inside Poser library files, it would be a pitty if HORUS used a binary format that could not be edited in a text editor.

Sounds pretty exciting! IF they do release it, Daz will probably not be too happy.

It sounds great...but that Horus format is worrysome....I like my ability to import PZ3 into Vue and various other proggies.

This sounds very much like how DAZ describe DS, only in DS you can already move, manipulate, etc without having to pay extra. I guess it's worth depends on what it does natively, what modules they produce, and the module's pricing. Catlin

Thanks for finding all this out, it is very interesting indeed. I wouldn't worry too much about the file format either, if there's any way to get in and edit it, our resident experts here will find it. :) SnowS

Sounds good but it's easy to say everything will be great. Let's hope for the best.

Thanks for the update Xoconostle. I wish them all the best but it sounds to me like wishful thinking, sorry. Especially hair and cloth simulation until the beginning of 2005. Unrealistic. Check out what the "pros" are using to get what Horus is promising: http://www.joealter.com/ for hair-simulation http://www.syflex.biz/ for cloth simulation And for the own file-format... Same stupid thing as with DAZ|Studio - why don't they use FBX, which is a common fileformat? Maybe my expectations are too high - maybe their goals are to high. Time will tell. Sorry again for being so pessimistic about this...

Actually, all that I really want is an app that can read a Poser 5 PZ3, including shaders, cloth dynamics and hair dynamics, and render it. I can do everything I want in P5, except rendering, if the scene gets too complicated, the render engine crashes. So if the basic Horus can do that, I'll be happy.

Another update: --------------- Hi Helen! Many thanks for your "good-luck" wishes. Yes, and you're right when you say that the gods (of 3D graphics) should keep an eye on us! ;-)) We are a group of people with a lot of experience in software programming. Especially in 3D programming. One of our guys has studied physics and he is the one who does all the physical modelling and makes the "long hair blows in the warm summer wind"-effects possible. :-)) However, we have realized big projects (like Brockhaus Multimedial 3D-Atlas), we don't have any PR-manager or something like that. The only way we will try to spread our software to the people out there is via the internet. So, to answer your question: YES, YES, YES!! Do share my email with your friends! This is the only possibility for us to make this product known. We've decided, not to pump a lot of money into PR stuff or other ways of sales promotion. We save this money, so we can make lower prices for our modules. Pricing for the modules will be in the range between 50 and 200 Euros. Exact price depends on the complexitiy of the module and the time it took to be developed. Ok. Now I should go on programming again! ;-) I hope you will spread the news about our project. :-)) Hope to hear from you again, yours Robby.

"why don't they use FBX, which is a common fileformat? " If it's such a 'common format' why doesn't anything I have even know of it? neither Maya PLE, Wings3D, or Amapi7 knows this 'common format'

Good point, I wasn't going to bring that up either. I've never heard or seen FBX. What's it used in?

Same here...Vue/Bryce etc...doesn't import these items...never heard of it.

Attached Link: http://www.kaydara.com/products/fbx/index.php

If you're not into animation and, on the mac side, don't have the 'latest an' greatest' versions of Maya and Lightwave it's useless

Yep no animation here and never will be ..& Maya/Lightwave will NEVER be happening in my lifetime...unless I win the lottery.

I'm happy with the tools have for what I do, so if the format export is NOT truly universal...they can keep it IMHO. Well at least the animators will happy :)

Message edited on: 07/11/2004 21:53

As far as I can find out, FBX supports most 3D apps priced over $4000, and none of the affordable ones. Not very useful, I'll stick with .OBJ

Hmm, some clarification needed...

What is FBX? Some short explanation from the Lightwave-Page:
"FBX is a platform-independent 3D authoring and interchange format, designed to provide access to 3D content from all major 3D vendors and platforms. FBX is a binary file format that supports all the major 3D data elements, as well as 2D, audio, and video media elements. FBX can be used as an interchange format between 3D modeling/animation/rendering packages, 3D scanners (hardware), 3D content providers, motion capture systems, camera tracking systems, and other applications. Used for over five years in production studios worldwide, FBX has proven itself a versatile, accurate, and dependable authoring and data transfer format."

Some applications with FBX support:

• Wings 3D free (see http://www.wings3d.com/ mainpage "Export formats")
• Cinema 4D $595
• Lightwave $1595
• Maya $1999 (Maya PLE license prevents the FBX plug-in to work)
• 3DS Max $3495
• Softimage/XSI
• Autocad
• Kaydara Motionbuilder

• So all major players are supporting this "unknown/uncommon" format... ;-)
• You can get it for much less than $4000
• Carrara/Amapi - according to information from Eovia (Forum-3DExtract, 24.05.04): Eovia "FBX support is definitely something we are looking into"
• "obj" is indeed a very fine format (using it every day), but ever tried to move an arm or an leg in an imported "obj."-Figure?
• Also the texture/material information in "obj." is not very complete (depending on the application)

What I see as big advantage:
You do not need any special plugins for each application, you are simply using the same export/import format.

Please do not forget: The discussion is not if you need/want this format or not, it is about developing an own special Horus-format or using some predefined "standards"...

a 2d tracking color and luminance for create a similar mocap video-based tool ???

Hi,

now that you have found our webside, i want to say some words to our project here. I didn't make it earlier, because i hate vapour-ware by myself like most of you, and i don't want to talk about things that maybe - or hopefully :-) - will be published somewhen in the future.

But to avoid wild rumors, i answer honestly to the questions here. Please excuse my - not perfect - English, i hope you will not misunderstand me because of my mistakes.

First of all: why do we do this? The main intention was the disappointment with Poser5, a lot of good ideas, but even more bugs. So we decided to program a better renderer for Poser-files. This is the main purpose for the basic-module that we will give away for free, when we are content with it:

a good, fast and bugfree renderer/raytracer for Poser files

you will be able to import pz3, cr2, obj-Files; you can manipulate, translate, rotate, scale, morph the objects; you can play with materials, you can change cameras, change lights (also with pointlights and ambious lights) and you will have several renderers from a fast GL-based renderer for previews and animations to a full raytracer, developped by ourselves. This is the result of my own 'wishlist' - a software that i want to have as a Poser-Power-user. DAZ-Studio is similar, but seeing the render-speed of the releases so far, i'm not very impressed of it, i'm rather sure, we can do this better - without being too bragging.

While working on this we got more and more ideas what we would like to see in a good poserlike-software, and so we build up our software modul-like from the base, similar to the DAZ-approach: a free base-software and then a couple of not too expensive modules for the people who like our software enough to make more with it. The software will run on windows-pcs as well as on Macs, maybe also Linux.

Now to several questions and remarks from this thread here:

1. Fileformats, export, fbx and so on: this is currently not so important for us. Our base-software is thought for people, who want to have a good raytracer without paying some thousand dollars for a software like maya, lightwave or similar. People who have such a software don't need another raytracer, so our base module is not so interesting for those people. Maybe later, when our advanced modules are selling good, we think more about various export-formats.
   Same with editing the Horus-files: we hope, that this will not be necessary at all, and so we concentrate more on load/save-speed at the moment. But when people like our stuff, we are open always for suggestions and wishlists.

2.from Catlin:

This sounds very much like how DAZ describe DS, only in DS
you can already move, manipulate, etc without having to
pay extra.

The basic manipulations will be part of the free software as i have written above. It is currently not sure how far we will go here, so i don't want to make many promises at this point, but basic transformations, morphs, texturing, light and camera-manipulation will be certainly part of the free basic-software.

1. From Fredy concerning the hair- and cloth-module:

Here was a misunderstanding: those additional modules will not be published together with base module. Of course this is not an easy matter, but we are no beginners; we have done a lot of work in those topics already not only as part of our own software-development, but also as users from various 3d-software. So we are knowing both sides: the software engineering as well as the pain of a user dealing with some dozen more or less easily understandable parameters :-). We want to find here a good compromise between power, speed and usability; and you can be sure, that we will not publish anything, before we are content with it by ourselves. There is no big company with a hourglass in our back, that can force us to publish something that we don't like.

1. From svdl:

Actually, all that I really want is an app that can read a
Poser 5 PZ3, including shaders, cloth dynamics and hair
dynamics, and render it. I can do everything I want in P5,
except rendering, if the scene gets too complicated, the >render engine crashes. So if the basic Horus can do that,
I'll be happy.

Exactly this is our goal for the base-module. Not a competitor to maya - we are not such crazy :-) - but a tool that you can use additionally to Poser for things, that Poser cannot do.

So, i hope with this long message i could answer some of your questions. Those are our plans, the given time schedules are from us, and if we need longer, we will take this additional time. Better a longer development than to publish a software that is full of nasty bugs, which make it a torture to use the software.

Thanks for the additional information. This is very much appreciated as it makes the whole Horus-project much more understandable. As already stated: sorry if I sounded too pessimistic (too many times disappointed from software companies and their promises in the last 20 years) but I wish you all the best and waiting for your first public release. Please keep us informed! :)

You've convinced me to wait and see. 8) My main irritation with P5 is that the firefly renderer is forever crashing when I make complicated scenes and although I can now export the entire scene to render in Bryce that is still an irritation with the time it will take Bryce to render it. So I eagerly await the release of your software and hopefully it will not only fullfill what you want from it but all of us too. 8) Catlin

@Fredy: no problem, i'm very pessimistic to software-promises as well. @Catlin: ye, the firefly-renderer is one of biggest problems on P5. maybe not the renderer itself, but at lest its integration in the Poser-framework is very bad und buggy. It is our advantage over Poser (and as far as i know over DAZ-studio as well), that we don't try to integrate a 'general purpose'-renderer from a third party, but develop an own renderer,that is optimized especially for the job to render Poser- or poserlike-scenes. You will be informed as soon something important is happening; at latest, when we need some alpha- or betatesters :-)