This post is not intended for anyone in particular just something general I wish to post as a pouring from my heart.

Critical evaluation of anyones post is not a crime. If you are honest, you always say what you feel is right. But critisism has a style to it, a subtle note with a word of encouragement.... you know... kinda the sweet pill maybe?? sugar coated ;).

Critic and Insults can not be equated and also at times when we make a critic someone IMs you and says something rude for having corrected or criticed them.... that means, they don't want to be criticed.... move on. There is no point in raking up the issue if they don't want to. I have in my personal experience here in the last 1 year received several IMS whenever I have made a critic remark... explaining to me what they were actually trying to do... most time it was just my bad observation or it turned out that my critic was good enough.

Honestly speaking, a work of art can never be critisiced. You can show one thing in 1000 diff ways and what the artist chooses to show you or how they show u is their choice of presentation. Critic like.... it would have been better if........ no, nothing could have been better if it had not come from the artists mind but yes, if there is an error in the presentation for lack of some technical information one must go ahead and correct it. no harm.

I had once posted an image probably titled... Remains of war..... A grenade, a spade in the sand...... it was during the time when several kids had lost their limbs etc. Anyway, I got a wonderful critic to it. A friend here mentioned to me that I had conceived it well but the scales were imperfect. Truth is, I was a bit pissed off and I imed this friend asking him/her to clarify. I had no clue what scale he/she was referring about.... I was new to 3d and bryce then. He ezplained to me in not so many words how if two objects if placed togather must have a scale comparison. I looked at my post again and it stank.....he/she was right. I don't think I corrected it, I let it be. It was a lesson well learnt and from that point onwards I was always conscious about scale. Other time was when I made a Poser and bryce combine work and had used additional lights in bryce. The overall composition turned out with shadows on the wrong side of the sun due to the extra lights used.... again someone corrected and i was like....geeeezzzzz..

So, the bottom line is.... Critics are a tool to learn, We all are on some level in the same ladder. some a bit high, some low some hanging in between. There is no harm in a point of view by someone even though critical but to be outrightly rude to leavel insults to a post in Gallary or to challenge someone rudely for a honest obervation of advise is undesirable.

RR is a very decent enough place, I presume we all are mature, so, please use your best communication skills to critic and not insult and be graceful enough to accept a honest critic.

Just a flowing thought.....:O))

Peace to all!!!

SNAKEY

How wonderfully said SNAKEY! Honest and helpful crits are learning tools for us all. They have been very helpful to me. People can be easily hurt if diplomacy and tact are not used because then the crit can sound an awful lot like an attack.

Message edited on: 08/12/2004 00:52

Yes! For sure! This is my cup of coffee! Polite and clever!

Polite and clever indeed...well put. I must add though, it is acceptable to give an artist a few things to do that you think might improve the composition. This isn't a command, it's merely a suggestion, and I myself always appreciate a suggestion from other artists, and almost always take them at least into serious consideration, if not implementation. My only complaint is that when i put up a WIP and ask for critiques, I get very few replies. I really would like more advice on my works, that's why i post them to the forum and ASK for critiques before i make them gallery pieces.

I agree with you Slakker... There are many here who are wizzards of this ware. Sometimes, we lack the right vision and if we can make clear our intentions and ask for an opinon for betterment, everyone should come out in large numbers and post what they think would make it work better. Like I have several compositions in my mind but I do not attempt it cause it is honestly beyond my calibre to do it. Not that technically I am so weak. My PC in its current configuration can not take it so I avoid it. There are others that I have tried but have failed. It would take well calculated dedicated time to finish them, if at all I start it and I for one lack the patience for it. The idea is..... we all do what we choose is right for us. :O))

A few thoughts... 1. Always start with a positive. 2. Never critisise the person, only the work (avoid you) 3. Be specific, don't just say that's wrong. Someone gave me this list a while ago, and it seems to be good advice, if you want to take it :)

Snakey's said it all! And I absolutely agree. I have actually been thanked recently by an artist who had had enough back-patting and really wanted some honesty. I gave it to him and he thought more of that than all the other 'wow-wonderful' comments put together. Be polite Be honest Be constructive Be prepared for flaming.

Maturity doesn't always come with age as has been pointed out by the sulking & tantrums that honest critical comments tend to cause. Quite a few of the people posting pictures to the galleries here don't do it for critical comments all they really want is the "billing & cooing" they get from their friends which sort of invalidates the whole point of posting the pictures in the first place.

@ Lucifer_The_Dark

Well, whether that "invalidates the whole point of posting" largely depends on what the reason is for that person to be posting in the first place. I'm sure that many different people here at renderosity post for many different reasons (to improve via critique, to share with the rosity world what they made, just to show their friends, to feel good that they finished something that they are happy enough with, to sneak in their next market place product, to get into the hot20, to tell a story, .....), and every one of those reasons is just as valid for the individual doing the posting as your or my reasons for posting are valid to you or me. Flak checks to make sure that wasn't all one sentence

Thus, the "billing and cooing they get from their friends" you mention may not invalidate their reason for posting, after all, that might be the reason they post. The "billing and cooing" on one of your (or my) images, however, may invalidate your (or my) reason for posting however. Hope that sort of makes some sense.

And, back onto the thread topic, I also agree with Snakey.

Message edited on: 08/12/2004 09:48

@ Mahray My list also had this tagged onto it... 4. Finish with a positive.

@ Flak, yep makes a whole lot more sense than what I typed now I've read it again :)

I think Flak made a good point. I agree, we all may not have the same objective in our mind when we post. I am aged 40, an accountant by proffession (which is very unlikely to change till I retire at the age of 60, if I live upto that). It's a very dry life...... figures, figures and more figures. I am not a naturally bent for this job but I am doing it cause I got nothing better to do which paid better when I started in my carrier. I was always a creative person who never got teh chance to explore or expand or even display my creativity to anyone, except to my wife to whom I wrote very loving love letters with sweet graphics in it. ;) I wanted to be something very diff but it was my destiny I guess, I ended up being the accountant. My graphic ventures are a relase for me. I started with Photoimpact, then went to PSP6 , PSP7 and now PSP8 and yeah, I am trying the beta version of Psp9 Too, I worked with unlead cool D, enjoyed my time doing animations a lot. My fav till date has been Text animation. Me and a fellow mate...nirvy (who is a great poser artist cum product seller at RR) started a group in MSN which taught the novice the basics of PSP and animation and so on. Then I moved on to bryce, poser, spent sometime exploring the vast advantage of a 3d plane. Used it primarily for my abstract work though, not much into details or stuff. Then a back surgery...... I couldnt si for long, so I moved on to photography now. I love it. I have no regretted anything I have done in the past 5 years...... I have always enjoyed every bit of it. My photographs are not bad, if you check my gallary but you can also tell, it's not proffessional and honestly, I dont want to be a proffessional photographer like going to a photo school , learning the technical details and stuff. I am happy with what I have learnt at the user level plus some of the awesome photographers at RR have helped me miles in improving my limited skill.... I shall always owe them. So, posting any work at RR is just my attempt to express myself in a manner I love. and to be amongst teh crowd of creatively talented artists and freinds. This is where I feel myself at home. Peace to all. SNAKEY

I do this to relax, I have a very busy and hectic life, and this is my outlet. I am new to this whole CG but love learning. I just wanted to be creative and to share that with like minded people. I love looking through all the galleries and seeing the wonderful and beautiful ways that people express themselves through thier art. The technical part isn't all that important to me but self expression is!

You forget though that there are different types of critics just like there are different types of artists. Some of the biggest art critics are also the most harsh.
I dont believe critics should be nice just to get there point across. Thats not thier job. Their job is tell you what you can do to improve your picture. Anyone whos trying to make art more than a hobby knows this. Be prepared for that. Renderosity is a nice community and the majority of the artists here give nice comments and critiques, but beyond this website, is the real world. If someone gives you a strong critique, no matter how hard it seems, try to find the message in it. Ive done some commishened work and Ive stepped out into the real art world, and Ive had some of the worst things said to me. I dont pack up my bags and say "well these people dont know what their talking about", I listen and try to improve. Every artist, be it the regular r'osity member or Van Gogh always has room to improve, and its the critics job to tell them that.

Message edited on: 08/12/2004 12:57

no kidding...... you have a piont. For those that plan to jump into the real world of art......they have to undergo the drill of the grill.;)

Don't look at me...I just live here....! ;-)

well say to all

Slakker: The reason you get few replies on a WIP just may be because few can find any fault with it. What else would it mean? People don't like you? :^)

1. Re: WHAT A CRITIC SHOULD BE...... by tjohn on 8/12/04 21:35 Slakker: The reason you get few replies on a WIP just may be because few can find any fault with it. What else would it mean? People don't like you? now you can not delete this one

Personal attacks. This includes but is not limited to, destructive, abusive, defamatory communications in any form, and retaliatory attacks from personal attacks. If you need assistance, please communicate with someone from our Renderosity Team.

@ d_hood

You're right - all the critics will be different...

Hmm, maybe we should get the artists to critique the critiques they receive, to help the critics to improve their critiqueing style, ability, and technique (making sure that the critics don't feel left out ;) ).

Artist A - "hey everyone, here is my picture fpr you to look at."

Critic B - "I can't see anything. too dark"

Artist A - "your critique is quite poor as you don't give enough detail to enable me to learn anything. Perhaps you could consider calibrating your monitor to enhance your critical observances"

@jocko500

I don't think tjohn was making a personal attack on slakker (if I understand what you wrote correctly). I think you may have misinterpreted what he said.

Message edited on: 08/12/2004 22:41

yes I looking at it too I think I am in the wrong Sorry I overracted here. I just tried of bad theads I noted some got deleted. Which is good this one is a good one Sorry tjohn

@ Flak I tottaly agree, I'm member of the PhotoSIG community, and that's one of the gratest features ovethere, they have ratings for critics, and if your critics were good, you are on the top and your name appears on a front page as an excellent critic, people with greater critics rating can upload more images if you have free membership(limited) like me, if they suck, and you do not meet quota, you cannot upload (unles U have premium, payed membership)... They just recently opened ArtSIG community based on exactly same system, lot of good art there, but since they are very young, bryce galleries are still kind of empty, which is not case with other software, go figure...:)

I dont believe critics should be nice just to get there point across. Thats not thier job. Their job is tell you what you can do to improve your picture. Anyone whos trying to make art more than a hobby knows this. Be prepared for that. But an awful lot of artists here are hobbyists. When you're singing with the radio would you like Simon from American Idol to come in a bash all over you for your technique? Just something to think about. Snakey: Cheers to you for starting this thread! :-) -Heidi

I was just wondering , maybe a point system for rating any image would be a better idea. Like....... this maybe a bit too far fetched considering that people hardly find time to leave a comment at times. Rating could be like.......... lighting.... 1 to 10. Composition 1 to 10. mood etc etc. and from there a consolidated rating could be arrived at. This leads to objective rating I guess even if by an amature. In case someone is not sure about a certain rating they can leave em blank....... and so on. What you say??? ...........and ty -Heidi ;)

You're welcome. :-)

Rating the critics? I don't know if you ever lurk around Amazon's website...but there's a message board for those who review books (and other stuff). I happened upon it and started reading the posts out of curiosity. Holy crap...you think people get bent out of shape over the voting here? There, they have this whole culture developed around critiquing and getting votes on the critiques and critiquing each other's critiques and attaining this level or that, etc. And of course, there are ways to rig the system. Personally, I think if we started judging and rewarding the critiques, we'd only be adding to some of the unsolvable problems we already have. Unless there's a system of that nature that works (at a site as large as this), then I might change my opinion.

Snakey: Maybe you've been around here long enough to know this, but the galleries used to use a point (1-10) system for ratings. People apparently didn't like that, felt perhaps it was hurtful, and changed it to the Good, Great, Excellent type system we now have. Personally, I decided I was more interested in people giving me comments about what they did or didn't like about my image than having them rate my artwork like a side of beef, LOL, so now I only enable comments, not ratings. So far I have liked the choice I made. John

now I only enable comments, not ratings Me too! Everybody just puts excellent anyway. -Heidi

Right, I wouldnt mind a critic , even if a bit harsh.... go on shoot me down , no problem but be it Bryce or Photo , I don't plan to go proffessional about it. So I guess, keeping the rating box closed would be a good enough signal to say... not wanting to be rated really.;)

Criticism to me serves a purpose and hurtful comments never serve a purpose. I see nothing wrong with "billing and cooing" from friends, personally. I do however, expect CONSTRUCTIVE criticisms and certainly not judgements from people if my work isn't up to their standards.

Theres a fine line between what people think are critiques and hurtful comments. If I were to critique a picture by saying "You didnt do a very good job modeling that" or "the lightings off", they would be looked at as hurtful comments, because I didnt add a compliment. Not all critiques should have a compliments. Sometimes people make bad art, (not any of you of course) and they need to be told it. Doing so at Renderosity would probably get you warned or banned. When you get a critique and you feel like flying off the handle and bombarding the critic with instant messages, re-read it first and see if theres truth in it. Im not a big fan of the "hey all my friends, vote me into the Hot 20, and I'll do the same for you". Thats just not my style. Renderosity has seen that kind of commenting for so long, that its now the norm for people to do that. Anything over the "Excellent job, vote vote vote" comment is hurtful. I dont understand why.

people look at the critiques wrong many times maybe they misunderstand; sometime they haveing a bad day and they sit down and come here to unwind and look at some art the good and the bad. you see things crazy for some reason some times. your mind is not on critique then you see something and you go off and hurt people for no reason. most the time the critques is tring to help you but your mind is thinking crazy.[some just do not know what you tring to do] as for me if I do this I need to get off the site and rest a little and think things out[did not do it but will]; reread what is say. Some times it take a day or two to see what going on I know I not the best thinker not the worse one so I in between. some times it just best to say nothing and you know in 6 months from now that artist had improved on his own and he looks at his own work and say "man that a bad art I did why did I not see that' Now If you told him 6 months earlier that person would be mad at you. as is he your friend now and both is happy

I think to give a good critique, you not only need to know what you are talking about, but you must also be able to deliver that message (the critique) in a form that the individual artist can easily understand and work from. If it isn't delivered in a way that is right for the artist, then the artist may get hurt by it, or just dismiss it as drivel - either way, the message would be lost. To be able to most effectively communicate with an artist probably requires the critic to know what the artist wants to get out of posting and what sort of feedback they want... on some websites (i.e. a pro-graphics site which might be largely inhabited by pro's or wannabe pros) it might be easy to know what people are after in the way and style of feedback. But on a place like here, where there's a huge range of artists, some pro/semi-pro, some hobbiest, some of whom are willing to have a new oriface ripped into their work, while others would prefer a gentler friendlier learning curve, there's no real way to know what the artist is after.... unless they tell you. These different expectations (both of the artist and the critic) are where (I believe) most of the problems regarding critiques and postings and.... that upset people so much seem to come from. I guess the only thing you can do is be aware that people post for all sorts of reasons, and want all sorts of different things in the way of feedback. Then with this awareness, you can try and approach the effort of critique-ing an image, and tailoring your critique in a way that will best get your message across to that individual artist so that they will read it for what you want it to say (and not get upset about it or dismiss it as drivel). If you don't know the artist, the best policy may be to just be gentle and friendly at first. Once you know what they are after, it'll be much easier to communicate and critique each others images. Oh, and this forum - its a great place to get to know people and what they're after :) And welcome to the forum WiserAngel and butterfly_fish (haven't seen your names around here before). Anyways, thanks for the discussion everyone - interesting things have been said (and will no doubt continue to be said). essay over

Thank you for the welcome, Flak! :-) I'm an occasional lurker. I try to stop by when I get a chance. If I were to critique a picture by saying "You didnt do a very good job modeling that" or "the lightings off", they would be looked at as hurtful comments, because I didnt add a compliment. Not all critiques should have a compliments. Sometimes people make bad art, (not any of you of course) and they need to be told it. d_hood: You honestly don't see anything wrong with that statement? (I'm not attacking. This is a serious question.) What is helpful or constructive in those comments? If I leave my statement here, I'll be doing the same thing you just did. But I'm not going to. Here's what you could have done better. You could have given the artist helpful suggestions (rather like I'm doing with you). Instead of saying, "You didnt do a very good job modeling that," say, "have you tried modeling this way?" and explaining how s/he might improve his/her technique. Instead of saying, "the lighting's off," say, "I don't think The mountains should be so brightly lit on the side facing the camera, since the sun is setting behind them." That would be constructive criticism. And why do people "need to be told" that they make bad art? Are you the art police? Are you going to single-handedly track down and slaughter every bad artist in the world? You know what? Here is my favorite example of the subjective nature of art. When I was in high school (1985), I went to the Kennedy Museum in Washington D.C. Hanging on the wall was a huge piece of sheet metal that an artist had blown bumps into using dynamite. Now if you ask me, that is pretty damned bad art. But somebody must have liked it enough to hang it on the wall of a museum, right? So who is to say what is bad art, and why do you feel it is your job to notify the artist that his/her art has failed your approval system? -Heidi

Key word for criticism: Encouragement. Constructive criticism should build up, not tear down. Telling someone their art is bad? How should they respond to that? "No it isn't"? "Sorry, I'll go away and not do it again"? Your little daughter or son comes to you. "Look what I made!" Do you say, "That looks so amateurish! You stink at art."? Or, "You get better all the time! But I think a pony has more than three legs. Would you like to draw another leg on your pony?" Encouragement. :^)

I don't like going personal or name an individual but then I must definitely pay credit where due. In the initial period of my Bryce work... I stank, very bad. For me, to get the whole render to look like a picture itself was a task well achieved. I was like.... I had created the rocket to the moon sorta euphoria. During this period.... I got several critics and suggestions from the well known couple in the Bryce Gallary, Hyperbhorea ( hope I got the spelling right). They gave me some wonderful tips on how to do things which included not just wordly comments or critis but they sent me links too o site wehre I could get stuff like free objects and textures and stuff and yes, they were the ones that told me about wings 3d and the art of modelling an object which till then was for me a mystery. I never excelled in that area (that is object making) but it was a tip worth while. I pay my respect to those honest critics who really wanted to help and improve me and polish my work. So in a way I agree with all of you that believe in Critics followed by suggestive correction, modification and improvement. There are sometimes very subtle things which sometimes are not visible to the common eye but which a good critic always catches and points out and could be of immense help not only in that particular render but in the many more to follow. For example, I remember doing high rise building near a beach sorta scene once. Everything about it seemed prefect and dreamy when I got a critic from an esteemed artist saying........ just look at your reflection on the water mate. you think the building is right on the banks of the sea shore and true enough...... viewed from the POV the reflection din't seem right and looked as if like a reflection of someone standing just on the edge of the beach........... he sent me a longgggggggg IM teaching me how to correct it etc since I had IMed him to tell me how to get over the issue. So, I am all for critic and suggestions without which it would be hard to learn this tool. But like someone just pointed out, a lot depends on the mood in which you read it and the language barrier is always there. Like English is not my mother language, its jsut an language I have learnt to communicate and I am sure I make plenty mistakes but I try to be polite and firm where need be to the best of my ability. Others maynot be able to do it......and others may not be able to read it the way it has been put. So I started this thread not to attack critics or put an end to it but to help discuss the ways and means of putting the critic across in the most subtle and suitable way possible so that everyone is happy. Like the amatures and the novice have to learn the art of Byrce and the critics expect much more from them the same way its time for the Critics to re read their Critics before hitting the send button. It is never harmful to be polite. :O)) Peace to all!! SNAKEY

Three cheers for Snakey!! And tjohn put it in a nutshell.......

OK! So the lesson for today is...if someone posts a really crappy space/war/landscape/something or other, you say...."Wouldn't you like to draw another leg on your pony?" Works for me! ;-)

TheBryster............. not a bad idea at all. How about you start rating as......... would you like to draw another leg on your pony?? I think your pony needs 2 more legs..... or oh god, your pony is standing on one leg?? hahhaha...... the Ponyian rating??;)

Oh, behave, or no pony for you two, and straight to bed. :^)

ROTFLMAO@Snakey!!!

It could also go like......hey, your pony has got a leg for an ear. hhahahaha;)

Or maybe, "Oh, that was supposed to be a pony??"