I guess the only thing I have a problem with C****** A*** is that they get their mags here 6 weeks after issuing them in the UK..still waiting fro V** 3..;)
I guess if we follow their logic, then all of the 'primitivist' art out there is equally invalid..and the artistic complaint against 'mastery'..hmm..deep thoughts..;) maybe they're worried that if everyone can do it, everyone will..;)

"From an artistic viewpoint, I would advise you get some books on art composition. The shadows in this image are way too dark, making the walls looks blindingly bright, also the stairs are leading the eye out of the picture. Nice attempt tho." :-|

I'm really biting my tongue, so I'll write my reply here since I'm not writing to Computer Arts again. The shadows are supposed to be dark and the walls blindingly bright. I was emphasizing the contrast to create a stylised reality, it's called artistic licence. And of course the stairs are leading the eye out of the picture, that's what stairs do. Ok, the stairs thing is a weak argument. But I'm on the defence.

in defense of drawbridgep: I got it. y didnt they. lack of ability to comprehend the artist intent? (really not trying to be mean just understand why.) personaly I felt the image was very well done. and an excellent depiction of contrast.
however even though the stairs r not the subject an they would like to pick at them. I must ask this individual if they have ever looked out a window and seen stairs leading away from them, and wonder where they went. Or did they contact the arcitect and complain???? (no arguement is week when properly worded lol)

Message edited on: 08/14/2004 17:51

You've had too much coffee and I've started on the vodka early. (My wife makes a mean martini) SO Not thinking or typing straight anymore today.

HEY HEY he said the magic word VODKA!!!!! well have her send one this way if you would. TY. Its always more fun to watch the turn events when in good company and slightly.... en.. inib... enibri... ah ta heck with spellin, drunk lol Cheers

Vodka is really helping. This latest batch is more vodka than martini, but it's goooood. I really should get away from the computer before I respond to something and regret it in the morning.

yep nothin like wonderin what happend last night online after a couple o pangalacticgargleblasters (wait a minute is that a refrence to somethin from the U.K. hmmmm... oh well)while dealing with keepin yer head from splintin in 2. heres to stayin outa trouble, long live Bryce.

Message edited on: 08/14/2004 18:49

Can I just say that the blinding white is what makes this picture- for me? It is just so typical of so many spanish alleys that I have walked down and the colour is just perfect

@Redfeather - Never drink 2 pangalacticgargleblasters, I hear it's like having your brain smashed in by a piece of lemon.... wrapped around a large gold brick. @Bea - Thanks very much.

Just to live up to my reputation as "the one who pisses on everyone's chips" (entirely unwarranted, of course ;-)), I must point out that stubborn defence of Bryce can be as misplaced as snobbish attacks on it. It's just a useful tool, and intense arguments (both ways) about Bryce's merit are as sensible as those concerning flat-head vs posidrive screwdrivers. Yeah, Bryce is not an ideal tool for general, high-intensity commercial 3D work, though it remains quite suitable for certain professional applications. Big deal. 'High-end' 3D programs are not necessarily the ideal tools for artists to make art with, though their capacity can make them powerful applications for the technically minded artist. Big deal. Any program in the right hands can produce stunning results. We all know this. We all know arguing otherwise is the desperate redoubt of the feeble-minded. The reason I state the above is that some of the comments causing umbrage are not program specific, and I think those comments should be examined outside of the 'Bryce' issue - whereupon they might, or might not, be seen as fair criticism. I'm always reluctant to get involved in 'art' discussions, which is why I don't get involved with the 'gallery scene' here (or anywhere). But since I've dipped my toe in this water, what the hell... I feel a couple of the technical critiques of drawbridgep's image miss the point, and/or are just bollocks. The discussion of the 'over-exposed' sunlit areas is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, and doesn't require any justification on 'artistic licence' grounds. Lack of dynamic range in photography is a well-known issue, and there are plenty of excellent photographs that 'suffer' from it. Not every photograph needs the Ansel Adams 'Zone System' approach to contrast to be successful, and likewise any 3D scene attempting photo-realism doesn't need to be 'perfect' in this regard. To my mind's eye, drawbridgep's lighting approach is entirely appropriate to simulating the illumination of a deep alleyway. One of the ways in which to 'judge' the success of an image is what I call the 'thumbnail' test (which, usefully, is the default for Renderosity, and some other galleries). Viewing an image in a way in which all the fine detail is made irrelevant is usually a good way of seeing whether the compositional, lighting and photorealism basics are right. Conversely, clicking on a good-looking thumbnail often reveals the failure of a 3D artist to capitalise on their mastery of the basics. For me, drawbridgep's image falls somewhere between the two. Reducing the image to a 30% size thumb reveals both its strengths and weaknesses. The lighting is very good, whereas the composition falls down - but not fundamentally. It's not that the stairs 'lead the eye out of the picture'; it's that there's nothing obvious in the picture to pin it down. To that effect, I would replace the bicycle with a better model (search 'Zippo' in the freestuff here), give it a bold colour to contrast with the pastels of the scene, and bring it forward slightly to make it less symmetrical around the window and more toward the 'two-thirds' ideal location. Imagine the image 'thumb' with such a strong key focus, and I believe it would make sense. Once that basis is there, improving the larger image becomes merely an exercise in attention to detail. More randomness in the textures and the models and the layout, and it would 'arrive'. Having a human figure just peeking out of a doorway in the background (or some such) would reward the eye for its 'outward' inclination, and be the icing on the cake.

actually, 'pangalacticgarglebaster' is one of the stock mats under 'waters', ain't it?..;)

@PJF - Just had to thank you for your eloquent comment. Well, presented and rational and probably all very valid.

The bike was the first I found and I do have a reluctance to make a model that I didn't create the star of the show. Hence the muted colours of it. When (if) I get more proficient with modelling, I hope that I will be able to create my own models. It was the last thing I put in and really an afterthought.

I like your point about thumbnails. Very true and a good reason for us to post slightly smaller images. (as mentioned in another thread)

You also kind of mention a lack of a focal point. Again that's true to a degree. but I wanted the alley itself to be the focus rather than one thing in it. If anything, then the nearest doorway should have been the focus and I maybe should have concentrated more on that part. Maybe that's why I put the bike in, since I knew something was amiss.

As for a human figure. Another great idea, but that means resorting to Poser and again I lack the skill at the moment to produce a figure that doesn't look like a shop dummy and I think that would have detracted from the picture. The other option would have been 2d insertion. But then we're getting into the realm of mixed media/collage art rather than Bryce, which was my intention. So yes, all very good points and let down only by my lack of experience and skill.

In the end it really comes down to the fact that I took this as a lighting exercise. Trying to create a harsh brilliant sunlight contrasting against deep dark shadows. And I'm really happy with that at least. Of course, it's impossible for any outsider to see what my intention was. So as with all art, the question is posed by the artist, but the answer lies with the viewer.

Forgive me if this contradicts itself or makes no sense at all. I'm currently the wrong (or right) side of a bucket of vodka.

p.s. Pangalacticgargleblaster is infact a rather potent drink and was invented by part time president of the Universe, Zaphod Bebblebrox.

Tjohn, thanks for the heads up. Apparently, some people can see the image, others cannot and I havent the foggiest what I did wrong. But I'm getting some comments there, mostly on the atmosphere.

"Drawbridge wanted to create a piece of artwork. But he had to resort to models that someone else built to create it. Textures that someone else produced. And if he only ever uses Bryce, that's how he'll always have to operate."

Grrrr!!!!!

Don't know about Drawbridge, but personally I make every model I use myself, mostly from booleans in Bryce. I will post this over there as soon as I can register (for some reason I'm missing the confirmation email...)

Edit - Rant over, feeling much relieved. Very nice pic, btw :)

Message edited on: 08/15/2004 02:03

I remember reading somewhere, that the art directors are much more concerned with the quality of the vision than with what tool was used to make that vision. This was based on the logic that you can train an artist to use any tool, but you can't train someone to have vision. My bryce skills have stood me well in moving to C4D in my opinion. The only real difference is in the addition of more controls/tools to speed things along that we have to work around in bryce. The scene composition and lighting principles are universal and photography has helped there as well. As a further thought, zandar's crit is the type of crit I would love to receive on my works and should be a model for us all to follow. Richard

Quote - "I'm thoroughly sick of dealing with Bryce people who insist they are maligned and unappreciated geniuses at even the slightest criticism." He's "dealing" with Bryce people? 2nd quote - "And if it rankles you. Ignore me. If it rankles DrawBridge, then don't ask for people's thoughts unless you're prepared to recieve it." Did I say in that forum that it rankles me? @Drac - Here boy ... KILL!

You know my little thread over there is 2nd highest in the comments and in the top 5 for views. Not bad exposure I'd say. :-) And just noticed some other guy has submitted a picture that's amazingly similar to one I did a while back. He hasn't said what he used to create it though. Interesting to see what comments he gets. Not a lot of info in his profile. SO I'd guess he's probably a clone or something. ;-)

I think that any kind of critique should be properly communicated, and anyone who spells defense, "defenCe", should probably not be taken too seriously. Aside from that line of spew, I really do enjoy having some of the great philosophical minds available for me interact with. PJF, you often communicate with near-perfect precision, and are very rarely offensive at all. I love reading your posts. Incarnadine and Drawbridgep and everyone, I'm glad I can come to 'Rosity and share ideas with all of you... Elitism exists in nearly all walks of life. Even pointing a finger at an elitist makes you become that which you despise. Degrading others only degrades oneself, as we all share the basic root humanity. Call me a shroomhead, but lately I've felt very close to that, "WE", that we call humanity. You are all part of me, and I part of you. It's ingrained in our very cell-structure. Imagine if a few of our blood cells sat around berating each other instead of delivering precious nutrients and oxygen...? "There's no secret to balance, you just have to feel the waves." - Darwi Odrade

Well, it's a UK site and us Brits do spell it defence. Although we say defensive, so you're probably right anyway. As for the rest.. couldn't agree more.

Aye, it's not that you British people spell it defence, but to defence is to remove a gatelike structure, isn't it?!?!? Or perhaps to un-duel? (grins)

Well I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I go to the above mentioned place and I can't find any kind of gallery or place where people post works to be commented on. Was really hoping to see what Drawbridge and Zhann posted and what was said. Anyone got a direct link? Thanks

Ahhh Bea Ive heard this an only made it through 1 1/2 before I found myself licking a wall in a back ally somewhere...PJF, interesting test one I think Ill start useing soon (just as soon as I figure out how to make thumbnails I know I need a post render software like photoshop just havent broke down an bought one yet). Shadowdragonlord if your a shroomhead then so am I cause you have a great point. Its funny sometimes how balance and ones perspective changes that which we r looking at or involved with.
When I first started trying to create anything with this program I had thought that it was a limited, useless, unimaginitive, weak, program that really had no potential what so ever. I had wanted to use something (to quote someones earlier thought) more expensive cause expense ment better right....WRONG!!!!! then I ran into 'Rosity thanxs to a good friend. my perspective changed. Now even though I have C4D, and Maya (the ple version) to experiment with, I still come back to Bryce just because its a great program an (I hate to admit it) the others r just more complicated. For what I intend to do I dont feel that the more expiensive programs make me a better artist. I can do with Bryce the same things with less headache (minus the garggleblasters) that I can do with the others. Guess personal preference comes into play here as well. Thought becomes words becomes action. becarefull your thoughts because they can lead to thoughtless actions (or perspectives)

Message edited on: 08/15/2004 15:01

Attached Link: http://forum.computerarts.co.uk/

I've been using the CA forums since before I joined here (in fact it was pmoores posting links to here that got me to come visit rendo) Much as some debates eternally re-occurr here, the 'low end' versus high end apps is one of the CA regular talks. Most of the long term regulars such as Inkworm, Morphim, Epoxy, BreinMeister, Poppy, KitKat, Blaufeld, are a good bunch of people, usually with good advice.

thank you for including me in the "good bunch of people"... but I've started to post just the other day... Perhaps there is another Blaufeld there? :)

There was certainly a blaufeld there when I started 5 years ago, a bit of a max expert gave me lots of great advice, I guess he must have left and been replaced, by yourself :). Many regulars left when they switched off the autologin function, just too lazy to type in their name and password...

Oh. Understood. :)