in actuality I doubt it would stand up in a court of law, the whole thing is very flimsy indeed. A Judge would look at it and laught it right out of the courtroom. But then this is just my opinion, even though I have spent many years working in the legal community. I see nothing in the TOS that could be construed as these contests being a violation thereof.

I have been with the folks here for a long time (although an infrequent poster) I have bought frequently and browsed daily. This is just crazy. Regardless of their "NEW" interpetation of the rules - the way it was handled was flat out WRONG. On the good side there are plenty more places to spend my money these days. All the rants are important to let them know our feelings. Now the important part is to ensure they see it in the bottom line. When the customers and contributors start leaving they will get the message - of course by then it will be too late. I've not seen a site like this recover once it starts a major downhill slide. I hope someone in charge wakes up since I think this is/was the best Poser site available but I will not spend another dime here if this is way they plan to continue to conduct business. Boycotting is a perfectly aceptable means to get a message across.

Boycotting is a perfectly aceptable means to get a message across. << The problem with that is, you have to have a rather large amount of people to boycott. I doubt you could get enough people to care. And as I pointed out earlier, this happens every year about this time. Object all you wish, it won't change things. The definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different outcome.

I suggest everyone ADD the word Contest to their images, all their images, since that seems to be the key indicator of what is being removed.

Hisminky...there are those who are watching this play out very closely...maybe not commenting, at this time, but disgustipated with this whole travesty none-the-less...maybe more people care than you think!

True ....but sometimes a few people witholding their money loudly enough can make a change. If I was boycotting quietly, you'd be right. But I plan on being a big noisey, stinky pain in the rump!

I'm too appalled to respond.

Edit on my last post....it is to the contest runner (our) discretion as to whether comments must be disabled...so really no differences except that it is posted else-where....guess that is painless enough.... Still not getting all this other stuff that had happened though AT ALL...... ann :O)

I will not go to the contest gallery to do a contest. I entered for fun not to win anything, had a lifetime of competition, have retired from that. Will not spend a dime here ever. Heck will be easy for me, I paint most of my stuff anyway. Only reason I will continue to come here is the friends I have made. I will be posting at other sites and making friends there, eventually I may leave here completely. Have had enough lies from administrators to last me a life time. I do hope this site sinks to the bottom, with the type of decisions being made here, it will. Double talk, lies, what is best for you. Been told to the masses through history as a prelude to collapse.

OK, either it's being suggested that we're all insane, or somebody just watched last nights re-run of Angel. What I don't understand is why you feel compelled to add your two cents about an issue that doesn't directly concern you, since you didn't have anything to do with the contests, and you obviously don't care. oh, and just for s*its & giggles, always remember~ "If nothing we do matters, then the only thing that matters is what we do"

Hey I found a loop hole!!!!!! In the challenge area!!!! "This forum is dedicated to learning, creating and pushing yourself to meet the challenges that have been posted either by the Moderator or fellow members of Renderosity." Maybe you can hold your "contests" here but just call them "challenges"

OK, either it's being suggested that we're all insane, or somebody just watched last nights re-run of Angel. What I don't understand is why you feel compelled to add your two cents about an issue that doesn't directly concern you, since you didn't have anything to do with the contests, and you obviously don't care<< I'm not sure the personal attack is warrented here. I never said I don't care, I just pointed out that the effort is futile. Those of us who have been here for 6+ years have seen this happen time and again and it never gets resolved. I think your hostility is misdirected. I'm not responsible for the managements decisions, I'm just pointing out that it is unlikely for management to be concerned that you are annoyed or upset.

well JenyK seems to be a good place to start she seems to be in the know I think she owes the community an explanation. I challenge her to make an appearance and explain why the actions were taken Who all were involved in this action? Who authorized the action taken? Why was a deadline was given with obviously no intention of using? Why ultimatums were posted to people not even sponsoring the contests? Who made these ultimatums without even knowing who sponsored the contests (its not like its a secret)? How do they justify listing contest organizers as having infractions with no advanced warnings and using a mumbojumbo blanket statement in the TOS as justification? When was it decided that private contests affected the normal operation on Renderosity? (and why were we NOT informed?) Why were old contest entries deleted? Why are these types of decisions implemented in this way with the mods going silent?

Not fare at all RR, people are having fun, people are creating, why ruin it?.. remember it's not about you rules, it's all about the customer, it's suppose to be about us.... because with out us there is no renderosity... we pay for this site out of our own pockets... we are the ones who make the new ones feel welcome, we are the ones who make the art work, we make the products, we make renderosity successful. Is it too much to ask for just a little respect...

I second this, as it will affect whether I post an image or not.

Yes, I'm sorry; There was one contest I had said I would give time to notify people and then removed images (I started getting the contests mixed up, as to which I was removing). The decission to remove was based on consistancy for not having anyone see contest in the galleries. Your right! I should have spent the rest of week informing everyone that this is against the terms and gave them a chance to rectify it. I do sincerely apologize for jumping the gun. It is with all honesty that I had no intent for it to a big issue, and I hadn't considered that members don't keep copies of images and didn't think about the comments. I will not remove any of the images still in the gallery for contest (there are still some).

Your contest also promotes copyright and Trademark violations, by the rules statement "Must have at least one character that at least resembles the character in the movie, anime, video game or comic book" and "Must have the name of the movie, anime, video game or book that you chose in the notes section of the post" ROFLMAO! Jeny dear, do you folks even look in the galleries anymore? I didnt exactly see anyone rushing in here to advise people not to do images of, say, Spiderman because it would "violate copyright and trademark".

Ummm... so I guess there is no way to get the images back that were deleted or to get them up on the same day as we upload something else? I'm pretty anal bout uploading daily and of course have already uploaded today.

Jenifer,

Having read your post, I think there is a lot more of a problem than even what has already been created.

How could you - or anyone in charge of this "community" - have been unaware of 'unsanctioned' contests running in the galleries? This is an art community; its galleries are a prime motivator for people to join it. As such, any administrator should be on a constant vigil to ensure that standards are adhered to, including the Terms of Service. During such expected vigilance, it would be nearly impossible to have been unaware of the contests being staged amongst the membership; it is completely implausible that this ignorance could occur. Even a random sampling of images would reveal multiple contests that have been underway for months. I can't help thinking that something else is at play here, and it is a poor sign of respect for the membership to have acted in this fashion and then to so poorly back it up by citing such terribly ambiguous wording in the TOS.

There is no reason why any reasonable person would interpret these gallery contests as "affecting the normal operations of the community." They did not illegally use bandwidth, and even if the entrants themselves infringed upon copyrights with their entries, that is a differently-defined infraction within the TOS; it is NOT what they are being cited for.

The simple fact is that the TOS does not specifically rule out gallery contests, nor do any of the regulations on the galleries themselves. This is an arbitrary interpretation on the part of the administrator(s), without any precedent and with even less rationale. In addition to this, it was handled badly in the extreme. People who had no idea they were breaking non-existent rules - or arbitrary interpretations of existing rules - have been told they are receiving permanent warnings. Members of the community have been given no opportunity either to defend their actions or to voluntarily respond or take corrective actions; they have simply had their artwork removed without any communication whatsoever. I realize that not everyone can be contacted in an urgent case, but this is not that case; unless there is an unstated reason behind this action that necessitated the haste with which it has been committed, I see no reason why an announcement couldn't have been made to the community, and the participants given an opportunity to comply with new rules that would have been put in place with their full knowledge.

At the very least, any warnings given as a result of this should be rescinded; they are far more inflammatory than any of the behavior of the participants, and they prejudice any future possible warnings; why should someone receive a suspension for what should be their first infraction, simply because they were given a previous warning for an action which they could not reasonably have expected would be considered a violation?

The easiest way to avoid damage control is to avoid creating the damage in the first place. In this case, there are numerous better ways things could have been handled.

The Challenge Arena is still not meant for contests with prizes, but used to address specific images for postwork or request for images that use or have certain elements.

168 posts in less than 5 hours. hmmmm... I think this issue struck a nerve. Perhaps the 'sity should address this issue in detail. But I bet the thread gets locked instead.

I think most ppl who get their pictures pulled for b.s. reasons and no one telling us beforehand does tend to strike a nerve.

I'm not buying the "we didn't know about contests" excuse since if you read above, in a message to Folded, Shoshanna says... " The question of whether or not to permit contests to be run in the galleries is one which the admins have been considering for a while. " I doubt that by "a while" she meant in the last hour or so.

Because there are so many images uploaded everyday, there is no way to view them and know of everything that is posted there. People on the team do try to go through, but we often are busy in forums and responding to IMs and emails. Many of us here have a lot of other responsibilities too. We rely a fair amount of the time on the members to notify us if they have any concerns. Copyright issues come up a lot. It's a little differ to post fan art verses the legal issues that can arise when now that same fan art image can win a prize. That changes the view of fair use because the creator is definitely gaining something. Yes, I admit I should have handled this better and I do apologize for that. I'm not real pleased at the way many others have handled it either.

pdxjims... I would definitely say it will be locked...

Thank you for your explanation, JenyK. I was planning on entering the contest and would not have meant to disrupt anyone or violate TOS by posting it in the wrong place :)

" The question of whether or not to permit contests to be run in the galleries is one which the admins have been considering for a while. " None of the admins in the office today knew there were contest being held in the galleries, so I have no clue how the "for a while" was meant (or defined).

Hisminky, I apologize if you feel I was being hostile towards you. I felt my response to be proportionate with your comments. The very fact that our effort is futile, as you pointed out, is one of the reasons we are upset. Sometimes friends need to get together and blow off some steam, which can be helpful,even if no real change comes from it.

Perhaps it would be best to lock this thread or move it to the Contest Forum...

Nah, it won't be locked. That's like adding fuel to the fire. It will just die out slowly, just like any other threads.

No one wants to lock threads. That will only happen if the TOS is violated :) LOL!! Okay, lets not go there...please. I think the only TOS concerns here would be attacks on me, so I'll take what I deserve and leave the thread going to beat me up some more...but just know that I'm really needing some sleep so I won't be reading anymore of JenyK bashing tonight. I'll read tomorrow after I've rested. Could we please call a truce? I am truely sorry for trying to wrap up the gallery contest removal too quickly. head hung low, waving white flag

Shibbit, I had just posted my entry for the Warrior Contest a cppl days ago - didnt figure I'd stand a chance but thought what the heck? Now I get home from school and find it gone. No explanation, no image, no anything. Sure I was PO'ed at first, and then I read this thread and others like it. Surprisingly, I calmed down and made a decision. After SVDL's contest is over, that's the last Render contest I'm entering....EVER. And that's that. I am curious however about paintgirl's contest and how its a copyright violation since she's not getting any kind of financial compensation for it. scratches head Anyhoo, I'm outtie.

Jeny K....you need to go back and review my conversations and threads on this matter regarding Fergusen and Cimerone...I mostly spoke with LillianH but it was common knowledge these were going on and being encouraged by the admin...so don't go adding an element of ignorence into this that only makes all the admin here look like they have no idea whats going on this site. There have been countless posts in the forums for this and the gallerys are filled with entrys...you mean to say you guys were totally oblivious???Really???Well then where are the admin that run this site and watch the forums cause there's no way anyone could miss this...and I'll just bet you've even commented in some of the threads speaking of new contests and what not. The one by Fergusen and Cimerone raised a lot of hell...and it was the admin who found out that her requiring the use of Cimerones products to be against the law if it required anyone to buy them to participate!!I said this repeatedly and got hammered by other members for it...but it was you guys who confirmed that it was illegal and it was from the conversations I had with Lillian on this that I know for a fact the admin had full knowledge of this.So,you need to get your facts straight before you say something that will come back on you like that...to say you guys had no idea this was going on is like saying you had no idea your pants were on fire until your legs burned out from under you.

If you're so sorry, then find a way to make it up to all of us who had our pictures yanked, without any knowledge that we were doing something wrong. Can you do that? Probably not. I'm fairly new to this community and was just starting to make some contacts and actually get recognized for my dedication and hard work in learning how to use Poser and coming up with some creative and hopefully original artwork. Which I'm sure is everyone's desire when they post work in the gallery. This was just absurd. Besides those who post here, who really cares what we put up? This WAS my favorite Poser site above all others, now, it's just another cog in this mad, mad world we live in, it's truly saddening.

I find it amusing that "anyone" is surprised by anything the admins of this site pull. NEWS FLASH: "YOU" are nothing but a number to these people. They don't give a flying f*** about you or anyone else in this (supposed to be) community. You are here as raw material to feed their bottom line. PERIOD. Believe me I know...I tried over a year ago to leave here...but I am still listed as a member. Maybe they'll dump me after this. Any practices that affect the normal operations of the community (Admins will take whatever steps are necessary to restore service). ---Perhaps a more honest statement would be--- Any practices that affect the "BOTTOM LINE" (Admins will take whatever steps are necessary to restore service). OK...one more time... "YOU" are nothing but a number to these people. ...now let that sink in. That number assigned to your name in the members list. That's "YOU". Nothing more. Numbers have no rights...numbers have no opinions...and the "only" value your number has is to increase the stats of this site. ...so I say to you..."GET OUT". (not that they will actually let you go) Try another site...there are numerous to choose from. RenderVisions has a great sense of community...they love contests. They have 3 or 4 running now...1 has a $250.00 CASH purse. They have an ever-growing marketplace that is looking for new merchants. Many galleries of outstanding artwork (even an erotic adult section). Forums, tuts...hell it's like a Renderosity that cares about it's members. PlanIt3D...here's another great community choice. Fitzy and Slinger will really make you feel at home. And if you're trying to find something...WOW these folks seem to be able to find anything...they will supply you with a list of locations in nothing flat...even if it means sending you to another site to get it. They have a huge freebie section. An outstanding marketplace. Galleries galore. AND "if" you want to run a contest..."YOU" run it. I've only mentioned these 2 because these are 2 of my favorite...but there are many, many, many to choose from. You owe it to yourself to find a place that treats you like a member of a community instead of a ###. ...one last comment... If you go looking for a new site "DO NOT" use the webring links provided by Rosity...it will only add to their stats. Use Google or go to RenderVisions or PlanIt3D and use their webrings...find a place you like and "Enjoy Art Again". ...well I think I've said enough. I guess the big question is have I said enough to get myself banned? Probably not...the message will be deleted or edited by the gutless admins and my number will remain in the database to increase their bottom line. Cheers...Good Hunting.

I can call truce with Admin "Jenyk". She is waving a white Flag. Anyone else for a hug? Wave your white flag...c'mon. Start all over. As long as the TOS is not being violated.

Message edited on: 09/16/2004 22:24

And if anyone is wondering why I haven't spoken out since my initial posting, it's because I work a part-time job as well as my full time job and I just got home. And I'll tell you this, when I got home last night around 11:00pm, the first thing I did was create my render for Paintgirls contest. That's how much this community and the chance to actually be creative again meant to me. And then this afternoon, SLAP, right in the face. Thanks guys. I feel bad for those who started up the contests. Don't worry, we don't blame you. I think people just need to lighten up a bit and learn how to have FUN again. Sheesh.

here i'm with the same problem! i think that all was said here but i honestly think that this was unfair play! very unfair, just an email askinf for a name change was enough, but no! they don't care about your comments or rankings...no way! Unfair play here!

Ok, I am pissed. What really strikes me as stupid is the fact that it took some time to search for all of those contest entries and it took some time to delete them all. How much quicker would it have been to make a general announcement about? How much better would have been for the members to be given the option of either changing the name of their image or removing the image themselves. What really irritates me it that this whole thing seem to have come about on a whim...The admins were discussing this???Why not come to a conclusion and then MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT!!! And to say the mods didn't know??? And make us members suffer for their lack of communication!?? One of the worst customer service moves on their part....So she says she's sorry, but how does that make it right??? Did she lose any images and comments??? Probably not...I am so bummed that I don't know if I want to enter any contests anymore.

Message edited on: 09/16/2004 22:36

Should also warn you they're deleting posts so watch your tongues...there's no freedom here to express your points and prove your case without it being considered an attack.You don't delete posts...shows you may have something to hide so yet another mistake made.

The case I presented about Cimerone and Fergusen is well documented and I even brought the matter to an attourneys attention to find answers...there are threads I and others started on other sites and I did warn you guys that there could be problems.For all the apologies,the last comment I read before posting was Jeny saying the admin knew nothing about these things and I got angry because I know different as do the members.I got hammered because Fergusen and Cimerone are popular,so yes I was angry about this whole thing...I apologise only for the attitude but not for the anger because we should all be angry when a site sanctions contests in the gallerys and then punishes the members when they change their minds...but to say none of the admin knew is inexcusably ignorant.

My comment is not aimed at Jeny nor at anyone in specific...its not mean't to flame but I will be contacting LillianH about this since she was the one I addressed this matter with most frequently.

My first post didn't make it here so I will try again:) I seriously fail to see the harm in the contests. Everyone comes together- envouraging one another- the creativity oozes and everyone has fun. It doesn't take away from normal operations- if adds to sales. This is a business right? Money is usually the bottom line, well another bottom line that should be thought of is that the people who post their work here are your money. Your boss signs your paycheck but your customers pay you. You want loyal customers who can trust you, your product and good business sense. Up to today I was that customer and I am sure more here were too. Everyone makes mistakes thats life you learn from it and move on. A heartfelt apology is seriously owed to those who had their pictures and comments removed and they should be replaced as soon as possible. People put their time and creativity into their art - and it's not right to delete it just because rules are not stated as clearly as they should be...why punish the artists when you should be harder on yourselves for not catching this and taking care of it. I won't boycott the marketplace as a couple have suggested- the merchants have nothing to do with this and do not deserve the wrath. Well I am off to take the word contest out of my gallery...they better still be there.

Believe me I know...I tried over a year ago to leave here...but I am still listed as a member. Maybe they'll dump me after this. I'm still waiting too. But now I have to say something ... I thought it was bad when Curious Labs' Shade announcement got moved into the Product Showcase forum, but this one really takes the cake. It's like martial law around here!

Since Henk threw out a site promo...mines Dreamslayerartworks.com lol,we don't treat anyone like this~we don't even know what numbers are since we're non commercial with forums and gallerys.We're comfy and if you don't want to settle in...just to know you thought enough to drop by and say hello is good enough;)

As someone who has no pictures currently in any contests, has never won a prize, has a decent record of Renderosity purchases, and even was making a trial foray into the marketplace as a merchant... ... I'm sorry, merchants, but I can't see any way to get through the depth of my displeasure to the management other than to say I will no longer buy products on Renderosity unless and until there is a major overhaul of policy sufficient to convince me that they have rethought their attitudes with respect to their membership. I'm deeply disappointed at the lack of professionalism and courtesy shown, not only in taking this action, but in attempting to excuse and brush it off rather than amending it. Forbidding contests "from this day forward" would have been a serious annoyance; forbidding them retroactively is beyond ridiculous, and leads to the obvious question of what policy might next be retroactively altered. I understand that the protection of trademarks is an area of great concern to a business, but in extending the ban to all contests they lost whatever sympathy they might have had from me on this point.

So she says she's sorry, but how does that make it right??? Did she lose any images and comments??? Probably not It doesn't change what was done. Would you rather I not apologize for what I did? Please don't talk about me like I'm not here. If you have an issue with me, please IM me and not keep bashing me here. Posts with attacks do get removed. "Jeny saying the admin knew nothing about these things." AB, I said I didn't know about your issues with other members, it doesn't mean that other admins didn't. There are nine admins, and there are times when we don't all know every detail of every situation. There are usually dozens of situations/issues going on at the same time. Each situation is handled individually with the team member(s) available at the time. I hope you can understand that.

Okay...things were done and they can't be undone so for me there is no point in reiterating how callous and unprofessional admins behaved today (lol...I couldn't resist)...but what I want to know now is how does running a contest affect the normal operations of the site...especially since in most contest you can also post your images in the gallery...and please don't say copyright and trademark issues because if that's the case the whole digital comics gallery and contest page should be deleted and also about 1,000 images in the poser gallery should be deleted because logos have been used there all the time...and also how is it possible that admins and mods didn't know that a contest had ever been held in the gallery...I find this very hard to believe...for a while in the summer there was a contest image on every page in the gallery...and there was also some discussion in the forum about specific contest...and last but not least can the admins please state what their procedures are when deleting images and try to stick to it...going power crazy with the delete button hurts more than helps...admins have no problem announcing new forums I can't see why there would be a problem announcing new rules...Rendo has a right to restrict images from the gallery but next time I would suggest the action be done with a little respect for the artist, merchants, and customers. Jenn

silent protest from me....512kb at a time..

Ditto. My images lose a whole hell of a lot in quality if I can't post files bigger than 512k. They look incredibly ugly and/or squashed at any lower resolution.

Just a suggestion... many of the merchants here also have vendor accounts at 3DCommune. For whatever reason Rosity has decided they don't want the contests run here, but we would be more than happy to have them sponored at 3DCommune.

You can set them up the same way you have here and you are more than welcome to offer prizes and do your own thing.

The galleries are pretty much set up the same way and we even have a contest forum where you can announce your contests as well as in the individual forums.

We would love to see you there :-)
http://www.3dcommune.com

Gail

...sorry Gail...I forgot 3D Commune. Great place. I was always impressed with the time and effort your members put into making comments on images. They are real "EgoBoosters". Bless them all.