Attached Link: http://www.vanishingpoint.biz

Due to Renderosity's Copyright Policies (even on Free Stuff), all of my non-original items have been deleted- either by the admins or by me.

If you are looking for any of my Star Wars (or other science fiction) models, they can be found in the Vanishing Point Free Stuff section.

The affected items are:

• Cygnus (from The Black Hole)
• Optimus Prime (conversion kit for TruckR product)
• Veritech Textures (for Dragonfly texture)
• Star Destroyer (from Star Wars)
• TIE Interceptor (from Return of the Jedi)
• Imperial Walker/ AT-AT (from The Empire Strikes Back)
• Communicator Pin (from Star Trek: The Next Generation)
• Holographic Deck (from Star Trek: The Next Generation)
• Redwolf (conversion kit for Airwolf)
• Lightcycles (from Tron)
• NSEA Protector (from Galaxy Quest)
• Blue Thunder Helicopter
• Recognizer (from Tron)
• Black American Express Card
• Video Warrior Texture (for Mike 2)
• Tron Texture (for Mike 2)
• Airwolf (conversion kit for Executive Helicopter product)
• B-Wing (from Return of the Jedi)
• Colonial Viper (from Battlestar Galactica)
• X-Wing (from Star Wars)
• Imperial Shuttle (from Return of the Jedi)
• Landspeeder (from Star Wars)
• Mark of G-Force (for Mike 2)
• Jason of G-Force (for Mike 2)
• Princess of G-Force (for Vicky 2)
• Keyop of G-Force (for Mike 2)
• Tiny of G-Force (for Mike 2)
• Phoenix (G-Force's ship)
• Thunderbirds 1, 2, 3
• TARDIS/ Police Box (from Doctor Who)

P.S. Due to this policy, I will no longer be producing a General Grievous figure (the lead villian from Star Wars: Episode III- Revenge of the Sith) as originally planned.

--John

Message edited on: 11/28/2004 10:59

Since they don't host the freestuff anyway and it is just a database of links...does that mean that we won't be able to link out to our freebies in the forums either ?? Does this mean they will be pulling all of the IP infringing products in the MP also ???? --Rebekah-- BTW--I have a linkout to your site on the front of www.PoserFreebies.com :)

Yipes! Does this mean they'll be pulling all the fan art from the galleries, too? What next?!

It seems that a new non-commercial figure and prop site is called for, or in the very least a new approach is needed. There are so many sites that feature non-commercial, pop culture related props and figures. If Rosity is weeding these items out of freestuff, then something needs to be done for the fans. Sixux, Animotions, Vanishing Point, The Anime Doll portal and all the others should band together somehow. Rosity is just one site. True it is the nine hundred-pound gorilla of poser sites, but the many can equal it together. What will the solution be?

Message edited on: 11/28/2004 11:53

is that why stuff that was posted 2-3 years ago is suddenly popping up as 'new'?..;)

Good idea! A Poser/3d site just for fan stuff. Where everybody knows straight up whatever they post is only to be used for fun & entertainment, not profit. I'm all for protecting IP when it needs protection -- hey if I were George Lucas & someone stole then sold my work I'd be pretty honked off at 'em, but if the fans said "we really love this movie and we wanna make pictures and tell our own stories about the characters" I'd say go for it as long as you don't sell it (without a license)and keep anything rated higher than PG-13 out of the reach of children. That's just free publicity, imho, unfortunately some of TPTB would rather bite the hand that feeds them when it comes to fandom.

You guys understand that, even if you're not selling anything, the copyright holders or trademark owners can still prosecute you or request that your ISP shut down your group or site, if it contains anything that the copyright holders or trademark owners consider to be infringement or dilution. I know it doesn't seem fair, but that's the risk you take. Whether it's this site or some other, you have to understand that these activities are still subject to TOS enforcement by ISPs, whether or not you intend to make money off them, whether or not you're just loyal fans who love Star Wars or some other genre. I agree about the effect on creativity. It can really shut a fan down, it can really alienate a fan, when companies start enforcing their rights. But what is more creative - doing versions of characters and props from old movies that everyone has seen dozens of times, or doing something new and original that nobody has ever seen before?

actually.. Lucas has given permission for Fanart and Animations and infact gives an award each year for the best. he just asks no profit and no inappropriate behaviour for his characters. look it up ;) I suggest starting by searching for "Pink Five"

Yeah, there's a section for it on TheForce.Net. Some really good fan films there, too -- has anyone seen "Essence of the Force"? As to the argument about "what's more creative?" I think it's pretty much all been said before; both sides have valid points and I don't see either one winning any time soon. After all, there are only so many plots out there and after awhile everybody runs out and has to work with whatever's in the idea pool to begin with. All culture is built on what came before; as the Good Book so aptly puts it, "There is nothing new under the sun."

Message edited on: 11/28/2004 13:31

"...After all, there are only so many plots out there..." ah, but infinite variations.

It's the variations I try for. Howsomever, Coincidence has very long arms. Or so I've heard ... I've also heard that some of those variations will still get one's ass in a sling, no matter how original one honestly believes one is being. ::sigh:: If only we had more clarity. But then the lawyers'd all start whinging we'd taken away their livelihood. Some days ya just can't win. :-P

Message edited on: 11/28/2004 15:13

Attached Link: http://www.vanishingpoint.biz/freestuff.asp

Message edited on: 11/28/2004 16:17

? Why did this suddenly become a problem ? Making amends for prior laxity or part of the PayPal purge?

Well, there is a part of the TOS that prohibits use of things that are not one hundred percent yours. However Rosity has never enforced this policy in terms of fan based art as far as I know. What would make them enforce this rule suddenly? Someone told me its the PayPal thing again, but I dont see how they would enter into this.

Thanks Mr. Appleyard....I must have mucked that up the last time I updated the page. oops If anyone has or knows of any totally free Freebies....let me know and I will get a hook-up going. --Rebekah--

Attached Link: http://www.animotions.com

yeah.. there was even a special on it on TV a while back, of all the fan films, etc...some were quite good (Jay and Silent Bob's, the Imperial recruitment films were 2 faves..;) Natually, the cheeziest, sappiest, little girl rattling off all the products she could buy one was his favorite.

His as in a guy name of G***ge, I take it? I must've missed that one. 8-P

Message edited on: 11/28/2004 20:54

I had always just assumed that it was okay to make Star Wars ships as long as they were made available for free. However, Renderosity feels differently. Even though they don't host the files, they have every right to remove that at their discretion. They may also delete the item without warning the member or tell they member after the item has been deleted. (To be honest, I don't know Renderosity is "liable" when they only provide a link to an item. But, you don't argue with a site that's already deleted your items.) Additionally, it is within Renderosity's rights to place a "warning in the member's file" that he has been making these kinds of items... just in case he ever tries to make Star Wars ships available for free again. And, yes, I strongly believe that the galleries will be next. If you used one of my Star Wars ships, be aware that your image may violate LucasFilm copyright/ trademarks and may cause Renderosity to be "liable". I hope it doesn't happen, but prepare yourself for the eventual "Your image has been removed from the gallery for violating the Copyright Policy." e-mail. P.S. And this is why we're seeing so many repostings of older stuff- people are editting the items to comply with the Copyright Policy and then re-uploading them. P.P.S. This enforcement is not coming from Lucas or Paramount, but from Renderosity wanting to make sure it's "protecting its own interests". So, please don't be upset with Lucas or Paramount. --John

JHoagland, I'm not a fan of Star Trek or Star Wars, but even with my jaded eyes I can see that your talent is amazing. I hope you reconsider your thoughts of quitting plans for any future models you wish to create.

Thanks for the support, but for the time being, I'll be concentrating on original models that can be sold as products. So, I'll still be making stuff... it just won't be free Star Wars ships. --John

Looks like the [huge, long string of remarks deleted] suits here are getting so scared of something even having the barest hint of being faintly associated with a movie of tv show being posted here will bring the entire wrath of the 'greviously offended' copyright holder that they are now declaring EVERYTHING related to ANY form of tv or movie is herby "A VIOLATION OF COPYRIGHT and must be altered or removed" [more comments deleted] This is getting absurd!

Hmm... I didn't know this. And I have a few (like 3) Star Trek based things in my Free Stuff.. I guess I should go see if they're still there. And a warning in your file here? Sounds ominous :o( I guess I should consider pulling my Harry Potter pictures too then?

"Additionally, it is within Renderosity's rights to place a "warning in the member's file" that he has been making these kinds of items... just in case he ever tries to make Star Wars ships available for free again."

Well that's typical. Make something "wrong" that wasn't wrong for years and then penalize someone for not being able to read a mind?

This I say to whoever started this purge: Official purges won't stop fan art and fan fiction, any more than stopping the wind from blowing. There is too much of it. Even around 2000 years ago in India, as soon as the Ramayana story came out, people started writing fan fiction set in its scenario. Ditto with the Mahabharata.

They dropped all my Gerry Anderson models also because of "copyright". Gerry Anderson is still alive and available for people to ask if he objects to fan art and fan mesh models set in his stories' scenarios.

Message edited on: 11/29/2004 02:59

there's been so much fan art for Star Wars done online in the last decade, they give bloody awards for best fan film made... TROOPS, anyone??? Ahh well, what's next??? First the wiping of adult stuff from the marketplace (thanks, BTW, more and more goes to other sites, where I can buy things easier), now this, what's next? removal of any images with a smidge of areole or pubic hair? I'd say this sounds like the Mouse bought them out or something, but I doubt they'd bother, plus it'd prolly be copyright infringement of some kind... ;) Long live the rest of the web... ;) Peace! DMKDB

Behold..... The flat, banal, ecru colored infinite plain of Lowest Common Denominator.... Soon to be followed by either dissolution due to entropy, or integration into some other Borg-ian (tm Paramount)monstrosity.... And people wonder where all the good books and moving artwork has vanished to.....

Gerry Anderson is still alive and available for people to ask if he objects to fan art and fan mesh models set in his stories' scenarios. If you get pemission from him to make models out of his stuff, make sure you get a notarized copy from his attorneys. That way, you'll have sufficient proof that the legal copyright-holder has given you a license and that they will not come after Renderosity for linking to the model on your site. You will probably also need to extend your "license" to anyone who makes images with your model in case gallery images start to removed due to "copyright violations". --John

Aside from the obvious laxity of the site in previous enforcement and the ill will caused by that chnaging, the other element involved is an understanding of a difference between tolerance and legality. Becuase intellectual property protections are reactive in inforcement, the owners have the ability to be tolerant of the use for various reasons. That doesn't make the use legal, it just makes it tolerated. Fan art, to a great degree, is neither protected free speech nor legally permitted. This is not applicable to all fan art, universally, just a great deal of it, and is adjuged best on a case by case basis. It is, however, often tolerated so long as it does note dilute the property to a great enough degree that there is risk of loss of the license involved (trademarks can be challenged and lost). The basic reasons are simple: it perpetuates goodwill (and is even somewhat sanctioned by court rulings because of the intangible benefit of goodwill). However, at any time, the rights holder can, indeed, exercise their rights. Paramount is widely considered evil becuase of the fragility of their license (a great deal of star trek is so ingrained in the popular psyche that it's considered very diluted, so every few years they go out and crush everyone to prove they are enforcing it -- and always because someone challenged the trademark in court). Lucas has been awesome. Since he's essentially a fanboy himself, and he's keyed into making money, he's developed ways of encouraging the fan art system to expand his license value without deteriorating it, starwars is doing something that everyone else wants to emulate. What sucks is that in order to eliminate all risk, rosity is doing this. It's fairly obviously part of a greater overall plan, and there's likely more to come. But that's what the price will be of the growth. As for the license to render, um, sorry -- can't happen. Believe it or not, every individual would also need permission derived seperately. exciting, isn't it?

[Quote from JHoagland] If you get pemission from him to make models out of his stuff, make sure you get a notarized copy from his attorneys. That way, you'll have sufficient proof that the legal copyright-holder has given you a license and that they will not come after Renderosity for linking to the model on your site. You will probably also need to extend your "license" to anyone who makes images with your model in case gallery images start to removed due to "copyright violations". --John [END quote] Yeah...and in the meantime, 'rosity will pull all of your stuff! and then after showing them the proof, they'll pull it again, anyway. Yo, John...no emails to me yet about the raider...I should pull it myself. The spineless don't deserve any support, imo. Well, I'm all for decentralizing a lot of this site's content among the Fan Community. Maybe Just a central LINK site to Poser sites of (insert genre here) interest that offer free downloads. Basically, breaking it up a good bit, into smaller chunks. All these suits ever seem to worry about is a CONCENTRATION of things. They never see the small stuff coming. (no imagination.) -karl

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewLink=328

The e-mail has all the finesse of a sledgehammer. It tells you that your freestuff has been removed and a warning has been recorded on your memebership record. It would have been nice if the e-mail said: Could you please remove this item. Or if they had asked if you possibly have permission, legal, to make that freebie, instead of deciding your are guilty before you are even accused.

so, What happened to "Renderositys Policy Concerning Claims of Copyright Infringement Copyright Notification - Official Notification of Claim of Infringement Response to Claim - Official Communication of Response to Claim of Infringement 1. Both parties must attempt in good faith to resolve the problem themselves."

Attached Link: http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~bat/GA/ga-craft.html

Message edited on: 11/30/2004 02:05

1. Both parties must attempt in good faith to resolve the problem themselves."
Well, their resolution of the issue is to remove the item then tell you it's been removed. I guess it's up to us to decide whether this is in "good faith" or not.

Spike- I'm surprised that this is the first you're hearing about marks being put on member's records. Is Karen the only one who's doing it?
Here is the exact e-mail I received from Karen. (Bold added for emphasis)

*I have a couple of problems which have come to my attention regarding yourfreestuff items.

These items are named in such a way that could constitute an infringement of the mark holder's trademark.
Thunderbirds - ITC Entertainment Group
Battlestar Galactica - Universal City Studios
Star Wars - Lucasfilm, Ltd
Battle of the Planets - Sandy Frank Film Syndication, Inc
The Tardis - BBC
Hooters - Hooters, Inc

I realise that these items could come under the heading of fan art, however Renderosity could be held liable for infringing this trademark and therefore I cannot leave these items up. Also I realise they have been in freestuff
for some time but they have only just come to my attention.

Please let me know if you require further information or you may with to visit the copyright forum here at Renderosity for further advice.

Renderosity takes copyright seriously and we hope that you do to. This warning has been noted on your member record.

Regards

Karen
Renderosity Coordinator*

--John

Dear all, I am posting this in all the threads concerning freestuff which are ongoing because I am concerned that people are missing information which has been given. First of all, the policy here has not changed in any way. We have always had a strict policy on copyright and trademarked items. However, up until very recently there has not been a person dedicated to freestuff. There now is (me) and I have been working through freestuff in order to clean up all the old dead links and apply the policy where necessary. This does mean that some items which have been in freestuff for a long time are now being questioned. Understandably this is a surprise to the creator in some cases. Where possible, I would like to work with the creators in order to re-release the item into freestuff in an acceptable fashion if possible. In order to achieve this I am taking advice from JenyK (Renderosity's Copyright agent) where necessary. In some cases we have been able to advice the creator to re-package or re-name the item and we have been able to rerelease it. However in other cases the item has been an exact replica of something which is trademarked, or had other problems which have made this impossible, or sometimes the creator has just not wanted to do this, and those items have been removed. Secondly, please remember that Renderosity doesnt host these files and so to say "the item was deleted" is not strictly true - we've deleted a link to the item. You might feel that's playing with words, but it's important to note that the item still exists whether we link to it or not. We are not saying that the creator should not offer the item, just that we don't wish to link to it due to our concerns. The decision to keep or remove or amend an item can only be the creator's, not ours. We are not making any moral judgements here, we are simply applying our TOS. Regarding warnings. I will say again that any member who feels that they received a warning which is unfair, is encouraged to contact Spike directly for a review. If Spike feels the warning is unfair, he will remove it. If any member is concerned or unsure if their articles may be "removed" (ie the link deleted) due to trademark/copyright issues, please contact me or any other member of staff by IM and we will review the item. We can't promise an instant response but we will take a look and let you know, and if there is a way of repackaging the item or amending it then we will work with you. And lastly, I would like to let everyone know that we have listened to the feedback you're giving us in these threads. Believe it or not, none of us want to feel like the bad guys or go around upsetting members, and we definitely don't want to discourage members from creating freestuff, as long as it is within the TOS. If any member feels that my communication with them has been rude then I apologise that you feel that way as it was certainly not the intention. If you do IM me regarding these issues then please remember I work full time and have a family so you may not get an instant reply :-) Karen

Enforcement of copyright is sometimes sporadic, and varies from place to place. As mentioned, Lucas encourages it within limits. Paramount (Star Trek, etc.) occasionally goes on spates of enforcing their copyright, perhaps halfheartedly. Marvel Comics is relentlessly ruthless. Keep in mind that there is a cerain amount of necessity in this. Hormel recently lost their copyright on SPAM, because it had been allowed to become so completely part of our common vernacular. Similar fates have befallen Xerox and Kleenex. There are precedents that if a company doesn't enforce and actively protect their own copyright, then the court doesn't feel that the copyright's protection is its responsibility, either. I don't like it either, but the long and short of it is, don't use copyrighted characters, unless you're willing to be forced to remove your work from any kind of public display or access. Lucasfilm stuff may be an exception, but who knows -- someday after Lucas passes on, his heir(s) may have different views on the matter.

JHoagland: BTW, by the above, I don't mean to trivialize the frustrations arising on stuff that you've clearly invested a lot of work into. I know that's got to be heartbreaking.

This whole thing just strikes me as being really bloody sad... Corporations actually mad that someone LIKES their stuff so much as to do fan art, or assist others in making fan art... It's not even like Metallica's big bitch about Napster ripping them off, since those who make fan art are generally not making anything from it. Just a symptom of the universe... Just funny how nothing happened to spark this except someone realizing that there've been fan art style props and stuff in the freebies just now... especially considering that some of them are among the OLDEST props that were available... (A. Appleyard's G.Anderson props coming to mind)... Ya mean NO ONE's been monitoring this stuff here for the past three or more years and FINALLY you've looked, said "OMMFG!!! What is THIS?!?!?" and screamed through the deletion of a buncha links??? wow. I thought my stuff was disorganized (I know, I'm courting getting banned over this huh?)... Ah well, half the reason I came here was for the great props and stuff - and it WAS the only place I'd found to buy the Gennie props for V3... ;) Sorry if I overstep my bounds or offend anyone. I just find the excuse that no one's ever moderated the freestuff kinda lame, although considering the number of broken links I've ran across over the years, I find it easy enough to believe. Thank you, nice-Moderator-person, to some degree at least, for finally fixing things, even if you seem to have skipped one of the site's rules... or maybe I misread or mis-applied the part I quoted earlier... Nonetheless, let's hope things don't continue to tighten noose-like around here, We have to deal with that enough in R/T...