Attached Link: http://www.PoserFreebies.com

Visited poserfreebies.com and found links to those sites offering more freebies. woohoo!

Thank you!

gad..what's this place coming to?

*"This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes...again

Can you picture what will be
So limitless and free
Desperately in need...of some...stranger's hand
In a...desperate land

Lost in a Roman...wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah

There's danger on the edge of town
Ride the King's highway, baby
Weird scenes inside the gold mine
Ride the highway west, baby"* ;-)

"gad..what's this place coming to? "

No clue on that one, but it's pretty easy to see why we went the direction we did with poserproducts.com, poserforums.com and poserfreebies.com.

"There once was a dream that was Rome..."

hmmm...

There once was a dream that became Rendo. Boy, do I sure miss Willow these days. :(

-Les

Message edited on: 11/29/2004 16:59

Yeah...this is the end...

well, I guess the freebie counts' going back under 10k..:| good thing I never did set up a web site..the Stargate, Star Trek, and Star Wars stuff alone would be 3 strikes..;) sigh..

I missed it. What is happening? Why are people pulling their freestuff from Renderosity?

Ahhh...I see that you didn't see the announcement that they made either ? Oh, wait....there wasn't one. Spike (representing Renderosity) apparently decided to start pulling/deleting 'illegal' freebie links from the freebies. This was done by deleting the link and sending the freebie provider an email that said that the item had been deleted and a mark was going on thier redord. Real nice way to deal with people. So, some of us are deleting our stuff anyway... It doesn't mean that the freebies are gone, only that you won't find them in the database list here. BTW--I also am under the impression that they are going to start clearing the galleries of images that contain 'illegal' content. So, if you have fan art, you might want to go ahead and delete before they do it for you and put a 'mark on your member record'. I pity the fools that are going to have to deal with all of this too. --Rebekah--

...."mark was going on their record."

Now this is disturbing. Who was it that accepted the freebies in the first place and placed them here for download??? Isnt there a process that freebies need to go through first before the download is made available??? Giving bad marks at this point is ..... reprehensible. The proper way to have done it was to advise the freebie provider that the item is being deleted for such and such a reason.

sheesh

Message edited on: 11/29/2004 21:38

Wow, this is a little frightening.... Does this mean that we are not supposed to have anything in freebies or in our galleries that are "fan" stuff, like pictures of T.V., movie or videogame characters, or clothing items that copy or closely resemble anything from T.V., movies or videogames?

????? Who knows ????? There has yet been an 'offical' statement, annoucement or addressing of the community concerning any of this. --Rebekah--

I think everyone understands the issue with potential copyright violations and the headaches they might bring for the site. Even though other sites are willing to host these items, this one has decided to (belatedly) take a conservative approach--conservative certainly seems to be the watchword here these days. Thats fine. Two things I find disturbing, one, that there was apparently no announcement prior to these actions being taken and two the issuing of "warnings" in an act of sanctioning people for previously accepted behavior. If this were an isolated incident it would be one thing but it isn't. It seems that every time something like this come up, the administration chooses to take the more heavy-handed, punitive approach when it wasn't necessary.. The policy is changing, fine, announce it and give people time to delete the offending items. Set a deadline and state that after than, anyone violating the policy will be sanctioned. Don't put official "warnings" in people's jackets for things they did in the past that were accepted, regardless of what the official policy was if you didn't enforce it. That's wrong, it's unnecessary. If there's some external pressure, some threatened lawsuit or other issue that's behind this, then at least let people know, they'll be more than willing to cooperate. Power used without common sense and compassion is abuse. Too much of that will destroy something that we all value very much, this site. I really don't know what's going on here but I wish the people who are really in charge, not the face-men, would take a moment to consider whether this heavy-handed approach is in their best long term interests.

.

Maybe black and white paint should be made illegal? After all, you could use it to paint a Mickey Mouse figure? Where the heck is this world going, do we all have to move to China in order to get some freedom....

.

Well, there are other poser sites and market places. I don't do any fan art (I mostly don't even recognise your American stars and toys) but I've emptied my gallery all the same as I don't want my artworks linked to this "..." anymore. I'm even sorry I agreed to that article in the Magazine some time ago. People who sell exclusively here at R. won't sell to me anymore. This site is dying, and life goes on. Elsewhere.

.

Why the heavy handed approach? Surely people could have been PM'd to remove their 'offensive material' if the administrators didn't want to make a site-wide announcement. Why they haven't is another puzzling question. Are TPTB trying to show someone that they can play hardball? Is someone having a bad hair month? I'd be interested in some answers.

Just don't hold your breath for them....

Something to note about all of this stuff, as well, is that we are looking at interpretations based on individual knowledge. The freestuff, galleries, and Marketplace are overseen by different individuals, who, it is my understanding, have pretty strong leeway. These different people will, generally, act on their own authority to determine what is and what is not considered risky for renderosity. They might consult with the legal department, but that is not always the case -- they have to have personal reason to do so, as they legal department is unimaginably busy, since she's also a lot of other departments ;) (and before anyone wonders, no, I don't work for rosity, nor have I ever. I don't even know these people except through the site. But there is a LOT of info available on this site.) Fan Art is not a grey area in IP law. There are a great many strong precendents and rulings which clearly show that most of what is considered fan art is simple infringement. But Copyright and trademark rely on reactive enforcement on the part of the rights owner. In many cases, the rights owner will not pursue cases of infringement until the value of those rights becomes too diluted. At which time the larger, wealthier owners of said rights (ie, corporations) will tend to swoop down in the most broad fashion imaginable. Shoot first, ask questions later sorta stuff. Based on that, it makes a hell of a lot of sense for Renderosity, which has grown very large and could be considered a fairly decent target monetarily, to avoid being caught in that initial barrage when they do the next round of stuff. So they are now enforcing that. As noted before, that they have not done so in the past does not excuse the persons who already violated the TOS from having uploaded it, nor does it excuse them for the manner in which they are doing so. It simply is. A rule doesn't necessarily need to be enforced all the time when personal responsibility is involved. If you ignore a stop light or stop sign and get hit and then get a ticket, do you complain about how only then do you get in trouble for it? oh, um, wait -- sorry, Forgot the answer is yes. or is it? Looking through the reactions of the last few days, I have to wonder...

Fair enough ynsaen, but why so heavy handed? The police, when enforcing speed restrictions will often warn people who are a few mph over the limit. Why no warning to the people who were admittedly violating TOS that it was going to be enforced vigourously from now on? It does seem somewhat churlish to say the least to hit on people who have done much more for the site than I ever have. I've just bought stuff here. Surely some politeness at least is owed to those who have helped the site over the years by providing freebies and posted to the gallery? Or maybe not? It is after all a business and if someone gets in the way of the bottom line then the hell with them. The way this site is run is entirely a matter for the owners and administrators, but it's not a terribly good selling point is it?

I agree -- and infer such in my previous post and state such elsewhere. However, as you well know, this is renderosity. And, indeed, with the exception of several of the current forum moderators and coordinators (all of whom work for no pay and part time), notably those within this forum, courtesy, delicacy of action, and sensitivity towards their patrons is rather lacking. I did say very publically some time ago that the owners and admins of the site needed to seriously get some sensitivity training. And, as I recall, I was called politically correct and somewhat, err, what was the word? oh yeah -- bitchy. lol The current administration for this site does not "sell" the site on the manner in which it is run. They have a strong tendency to use the number of vistors, the number of merchants, the volume of sales, number of posts and pictures, and such as sales points. I mean, come on -- would you sell something on it's weak points? hee hee

No ynsaen, I wouldn't. I also wouldn't do actions liable to reduce the number of merchants and artists posting here. That does sound very counter productive. Treating suppliers, which is what merchants are, and free advertisers, which is what posting artists are, in a 'f*** you and the horse you rode in on' way is not a particularly bright idea. (Even if the horse, or pony, is pink!) Having to say "Yeah, we had some really good merchants and artists here, but now they're not." is not a good way to impress people in the business world. Interesting that the admins running the different departments all seem to be acting in the same way.

Sometimes a black mark on your record is a badge of honor. I've only got one piece of fan art here. I'm not removing anything. They can do their own dirty work. If they wanna boot me so be it. I've about had it with this dump anyway. -_-

Damn shame too. This forum is great.

Message edited on: 11/30/2004 11:02

Attached Link: http://www.vanishingpoint.biz

I have a link to you already John :) --Rebekah--

After the "family friendly" thing... Say g'bye the my gallery. This is the end. RC

As far as sci-fi related material is concerned... A friend of mine, who is also into Poser, has been writing, and net-publishing, a slightly notorious sci-fi bondage-porn series for several years. You especially won't see the fan-art here.

"They have a strong tendency to use the number of vistors, the number of merchants, the volume of sales, number of posts and pictures, and such as sales points." Here's an interesting little equation to think about: Traffic=Money (Advertising dollars, marketplace purchases, etc.) Memberships=Money (the higher the membership number that can be claimed, the more cash one can demand for advertising in all it's many forms) Freestuff=Traffic+Memberships(people come here to find this gargantuan list of freebies and have to become members to download anything) Known Characters in Freestuff = tons of freestuff traffic/memberships If there is even a grain of question in anyone's mind as to why this has been a "relaxed" subject for so long, just consider the equation above. Judging from the swiftness of the actions seen in the last few days, I'd bet there is a lot more to this behind the scenes than anyone is willing to admit. I don't think it's just coincidence that this came about right around the same time as the Paypal debacle. Granted, it would be pulling teeth to get anyone here to give specifics on anything, because specifics would let the users and merchants here actually know what was really going on, and if people know what's really going on it becomes difficult to convince them of what you want them to think is going on. The corporate line being resounded here is that whole "we're enforcing something that's been in place" shpeel, but it doesn't answer the very interesting questions of why so rude about it and why such an abrupt ramp up on the issue? Of course, I don't expect an actual, meaningful answer to these questions. That would require specifics which we've all been shown already we are not going to recieve. -Les

Good thing I downloaded everything I wanted from Freestuff in early October...

Spike (representing Renderosity) apparently decided to start pulling/deleting 'illegal' freebie links from the freebies. This was done by deleting the link and sending the freebie provider an email that said that the item had been deleted and a mark was going on thier redord.

You know, I have to admit ... while I understand the reason that the items are being removed, all of these "marks" going on people's records is so grammar school. Can't you treat the members here like adults? Respect goes both ways, you know.

Sheesh.

Message edited on: 11/30/2004 15:59

Do I detect a corporate takeover bid here? Corporations HATE anything that doesn't follow the approved line. Please God, don't let it be Disney!

First they remove pictures with the word "Contest" in them. Secondly, they remove all objects from the Marketplace they consider "objectionable." Now they ban fanart. This is just peachy...

Dear all, I am posting this in all the threads concerning freestuff which are ongoing because I am concerned that people are missing information which has been given. First of all, the policy here has not changed in any way. We have always had a strict policy on copyright and trademarked items. However, up until very recently there has not been a person dedicated to freestuff. There now is (me) and I have been working through freestuff in order to clean up all the old dead links and apply the policy where necessary. This does mean that some items which have been in freestuff for a long time are now being questioned. Understandably this is a surprise to the creator in some cases. Where possible, I would like to work with the creators in order to re-release the item into freestuff in an acceptable fashion if possible. In order to achieve this I am taking advice from JenyK (Renderosity's Copyright agent) where necessary. In some cases we have been able to advice the creator to re-package or re-name the item and we have been able to rerelease it. However in other cases the item has been an exact replica of something which is trademarked, or had other problems which have made this impossible, or sometimes the creator has just not wanted to do this, and those items have been removed. Secondly, please remember that Renderosity doesnt host these files and so to say "the item was deleted" is not strictly true - we've deleted a link to the item. You might feel that's playing with words, but it's important to note that the item still exists whether we link to it or not. We are not saying that the creator should not offer the item, just that we don't wish to link to it due to our concerns. The decision to keep or remove or amend an item can only be the creator's, not ours. We are not making any moral judgements here, we are simply applying our TOS. Regarding warnings. I will say again that any member who feels that they received a warning which is unfair, is encouraged to contact Spike directly for a review. If Spike feels the warning is unfair, he will remove it. If any member is concerned or unsure if their articles may be "removed" (ie the link deleted) due to trademark/copyright issues, please contact me or any other member of staff by IM and we will review the item. We can't promise an instant response but we will take a look and let you know, and if there is a way of repackaging the item or amending it then we will work with you. And lastly, I would like to let everyone know that we have listened to the feedback you're giving us in these threads. Believe it or not, none of us want to feel like the bad guys or go around upsetting members, and we definitely don't want to discourage members from creating freestuff, as long as it is within the TOS. If any member feels that my communication with them has been rude then I apologise that you feel that way as it was certainly not the intention. If you do IM me regarding these issues then please remember I work full time and have a family so you may not get an instant reply :-) Karen

oki so fan art is illegal too ? i suppose they also mail your host to report you to legal authorities, right ? i really think this copyright paranoid mess is pushing WAAAY TOO far ! why when it collide with freedom of speech ?

If any member is concerned or unsure if their articles may be "removed" (ie the link deleted) due to trademark/copyright issues >> If you do IM me regarding these issues then please remember I work full time and have a family There's the dilemma - one person simply will not have the time to investigate ALL of the copyright issues that are being tread here, and that go beyond fan art. What about items that have been downloaded from other sites, changed slightly, and then put in free stuff here?

"oki so fan art is illegal too ?" Yes. Has been for the last 100 years or so at least.

I don't understand this idea of putting the onus on people to appeal the warnings. The process of issuing warnings unannounced after years of lax enforcement is unfair in itself. All the warnings are unfair if fair means treating people with courtesy and some consideration. Once again, given the choice, why go the bad cop route? "Of course, I don't expect an actual, meaningful answer to these questions. That would require specifics which we've all been shown already we are not going to recieve." And the reason is that the people here in the forum are a tiny minority of the entire population. The rest either approve, don't know what's going on or simply don't care. Face it, we're the blue staters in this election and our votes don't count.

I also wouldn't do actions liable to reduce the number of merchants and artists posting here. That does sound very counter productive. The thing is, Renderosity believes that they can piss people off constantly and they will have no repercussion from it. Up until now, that's been more or less true. A few people leave, but more stay, and more join. It has, of course, caused a few top-selling merchants to sell elsewhere, it's caused several splits in the Poser community, and produced more competition for Renderosity as a result. How all of that affects the site in the long run remains to be seen. bonni

I decided that I wasn't going to post any new art up after they became "family friendly", bonni. I got done taking down all my gallery because the idea of people getting black marks for something that previously was FINE is really offensive to me. Congratulations, R'osity - apparently you don't just want to cater to children, but you want to treat us like kids, too. I resented in loco parentis when I was underaged, but I've kids of my own, thanks. I wish their top-twenty merchants would find another place to go. I don't feel like contributing any more of my money (or the money of my friends and family) to a place that treats its members with such cavalier disrespect. RC Gimme black marks. Please.

Fanart is illegal? "Marks" put on artists who does fanart? What that-?! Is this Nazi Germany? The USSR? I know we're under a Bush, but come-on, That's ridiculous!!! You mean to tell if a kid draws R2D2 on his notebook the copyright police will rip up his notebook and smack his little hands with a ruler? Of course not! People love to draw things they love, whether it be a movie, novel, book, comic, religion, popular figure, mythology etc. So what if an artist's chosen art form is Poser isn't of a notebook, canvas, or wall? Modern myths are public domain. Public figures are public domain. Popular culture is public domain. You can't slap someone with a copyright infringement for saying, "Shagadelic!", or using "I'll be back" as the headline in magazine story. Why are images any different? Imagine if there were copyright issues with the Bible. How many artist throughout history would be sued or thrown in jail for daring to show Jesus(tm) without first making a donation to the church for the right to use Jesus' name or likeness? Come on this is silly. And I find hard to believe that any movie studio, publisher, record company etc would smash the hands of artists who give tons of FREE publicity, keep their "product" in the public eye, and breed rigorous brand loyalty. You can't even buy that kind of a cult following even if you wanted to!!! Why would they alienate their most loyal customers? That would be stupid. I think Renderosity should reconsider their position on giving "marks" on artists who "dare" to use anything recognizable in their art. bB

"And I find hard to believe that any movie studio, publisher, record company etc would smash the hands of artists who give tons of FREE publicity, keep their "product" in the public eye, and breed rigorous brand loyalty. You can't even buy that kind of a cult following even if you wanted to!!! Why would they alienate their most loyal customers? That would be stupid." Stupid it may seem, but that arises out of a lack of knowledge of the specifics of the law, and the reasons for those laws. I'm going to try to remain calm and reasonable right now, and not post the words I typed first the way I typed them. Unlike a lot of people, excepting situations where I feel its important to share information that affects an entire community, I generally follow the rules I agreed to. And if I did post them as I wanted, I would need to be banned for personal attacks. Right now, after reading that, I am so pissed off I can't see straight. Public figures are not public domain. Not all modern myths are public domain (be careful using that phrase, it has specific meaning) Popular culture is decidedly not public domain. I, personally, have lost thousands of dollars to people who think like that. I have spent months in cold courtrooms that echo like bad music halls listening to people use those same arguments in front of judges in small calims courts, and every single time they did I won the honor and the privilege of being able to say that yes, they did steal from me and by god, one day the collection agents will get ten or fifteen bucks from them. And you may find it hard to believe, but perhaps you didn't hear about the actions just a few short years ago regarding harry potter, by warner brothers. Or maybe you missed the three separate occasions where paramount -- in a bid to keep star trek alive as something they can make money from -- was put in a position by such well meaning fans calling it stupid of having to shut down hundreds of fanzines and such. And dammit, ya know what? No -- no one is gonna walk up to that kid for drawing R2D2 on his notebook. But if that same kid scans that sketch in and colors it nicely and puts it up on the internet -- which is distributing it -- then yeah -- if the rights holder wants to they sure as hell can do something about it. OMG I am pissed. Tell ya what: you go make something original. Spend the real quality freaking hours it takes to do so -- just as many as it takes to make a good piece of fan art -- and then you post it, and ya know what? I'll copy it and put it up on every single site I come across. And when people think that I made it because I never freaking bother to credit you, you tell me how you feel. In case no one got the idea in the first place, this is being done now because they can do it now. It would have been nice if, gee, just maybe, for once in their freaking lives people would have actually paid attention to what the hell they were doing and NOT uploaded it in the first place. Go freaking learn something for a change.

Well, looks like I had one of my 2 images in the gallery yanked. I would happy to delete it, since my blood is boiling right now, but for reason I don't have access to delete my own image. The one I had access to, I did delete, and all my freestuff, and all my articles too. The image that was yanked was not offensive in any way unless a guy without a shirt is offensive and the word "matrix" used in the title was copyright infringement. You know this just sucks. steam coming out of ears I'm seriously entertaining the idea of boycotting the marketplace. I'm sick of the all the politics happening in America these days. bB

I had something to say to that due to the offensive and accusatory tone, but I don't feel like getting into any more. The freebies aren't listed here and are available elsewhere. Simple as that. --Rebekah--

Rebekah, no. Feel free. After reading that earlier statement I flipped a lid. Needed to post that to Notepad before I posted to the board and read it first. It's a touchy area for me, personally, to see the rights of artists -- any artist -- trampled by ignorance. I lost my temper. Comes with all the red hair (when it's not blonde, which, for some fool reason, I went and made it).

Fanart is illegal? Yes. Some copyright holders allow and even encourage it. Some tolerate it but watch closely. Some do not allow it at all and will certainly send their legal department after you. Much as it hurts to imagine it, copyright laws apply to companies, corporations, and individuals equally (although companies have different terms of length; the actual protections are precisely the same however). bonni

See, now I feel as though you are calling me ignorant. And REALLY don't want to go there. So, as I have said...I am done with this. --Rebekah--

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=BastBlack

I don't understand this idea of putting the onus on people to appeal the warnings. The process of issuing warnings unannounced after years of lax enforcement is unfair in itself. All the warnings are unfair if fair means treating people with courtesy and some consideration. Once again, given the choice, why go the bad cop route? As Shoshanna has said in another thread, co-ordinators and moderators cannot rescind warnings, only Spike can do that. Spike will only handle individual cases and is not going to review someone's membership in a public forum. In addition, the number of warnings handed out has been extremely small.

There's the dilemma - one person simply will not have the time to investigate ALL of the copyright issues that are being tread here, and that go beyond fan art. I will do, but it's not going to happen overnight. I've been doing this for two months now and I'm around 10% of the way through the Poser free stuff (working from back to the front.) I'm in for the long haul, though. What about items that have been downloaded from other sites, changed slightly, and then put in free stuff here? That would usually be a direct copyright violation but would depend on the terms of the original mesh and in some cases the person uploading may have received permission to alter it and be able to send that on to us. Just like with marketplace items, we may not catch these violations until the original copyright holder lets us know about it.