I really hate it when anybody accuses me of being a thief. I asked for a freebie to be emailed to me, from a deceased artist, who made wonderful models. Instead, the moderators act as if I'm the antichrist, and say that I'm a terrible person. Here's something for you to chew on...I wasn't going to use it for profit. It's not available from the Taruru mirror site, and I'm pretty new to the Poser community, having only been here a handful of months. There is no reason to burn me at the stake for what I requested... I now realize that I should never ask for people to do things for me. I can't model worth jack in any case. Do you think it's easy to make a 3D model when you have cerebral palsy and poor spatial awareness?

I am sorry if you feel I offended you I was giving you the benifit of the doubt being you might have been new and clearly stated this is a friendly reminder. I in no way said you were a theif just wasn't sure what you wanted. But when you ask for someone to email you a file after you had been told it is wrong then you have to expect people will get upset. If it had been your product how would you feel. There are strict rules governing copyrights to protect the original makers these are governed by the US copyright laws if we break them then we are no better then a theif. This community strives to protect the artist here and our polocy is zero tolerance for such actions. If you feel you have been unduly accused by me or someone else here please feel free to contact one of the Administrators or Spike who is my boss. SndCastie Renderosity Moderator

Hauksdottir-We respect the copyrights of other people just as we demand that they respect our copyrights. It isn't flattering to be ripped off. Sometimes it is expensive, sometimes it is heart-breaking, sometimes it is a time-consuming nuisance. Hauksdottir-This is a community which, for the most part, tries to protect each other. If you regret that, then perhaps you should pick another group where theft is tolerated. Not here. Hauksdottir-Even though he edited his message to add the grumble that he didn't like us anymore, he still left his request for the file up... by which I deduce that he is probably a bit obstinate (4 of us had already said "no way") or simply doesn't care about the rights of other artists. Hauksdottir-If more people respected the artistic rights of others, instead of calling those rights stupid, we'd all have a lot more protection. SndCastle- I personally noted to him in post #2 that to ask for someone to send you a model in its original state is illegal and against our TOS. Now if that isn't plain enough then what is. We have a zero tolerance for such things here and I was trying to give him the benifit of the doubt since he might have been new and not know our policy about these sort of things.

From these posts, it shows that Rendo obviously doesn't care about how customers feel when they're threatened and insulted, because all that's important is keeping the peace. I can understand this behavior if someone asks for a free Vicky3, or rips off an artist's work and markets it under a different name, but in no way shape or form is this a polite way of saying no.

Oh, and I have to give praise to Wolf359 for his post. From the way I understood it, the movie clip he posted was a way of saying: "You can't have this model, so I'm going to have fun with it myself. Let me show you what I can do with it, and you'll never be able to do this."

SndCastie Yes I did say that and I was giving you the benifit of the doubt. Hauksdottir is not a Mod here anymore. As I said above if you have a problem with me as a Mod or anyother member please feel free to contact Spike or anyother Administator here. SndCastie

Attached Link: http://dulakaba.tripod.com/b_e_e/index.html

I will say that so far they have been helpful to me when I have requested help and one moderator even contacted me to let me know that one of my products was being discussed in a thread.

On the other hand, I (like a number of other modelers) will often make a prop for someone by request (like the free long bow found under poser ready props made for Elfwine). When I make a model I only require that I be able to put it in the freestuff section so that everyone can access it and that I may put 'Made by request for so and so' in the info. Please feel free to contact me through my renderosity email at any time that you need a prop that you cannot find.

I am writing not only to let you know that I do some free custom props but also to show you there are some friendly faces here.

Your fellow Poser friend
diviner

Yeah, then said Moderator or Administrator is going to ban me, because apparently I'm a terrible, terrible person for expecting people to be understanding and should burn in hell.

While I appreciate the offer, diviner, I don't think I should bother...

Having read what I could in the previous thread (I hate that people can delete their messages and cause a thread to lose continuity) and in this thread I think this situation was handled better than most I've seen over my many years at Renderosity and what came before. It is always hard to read tone in a message. Perhaps it is better not to try. I have seen hostile messages here from both members and moderators. Believe me, your responses were not hostile and if members wanted to virtually "burn you at the stake", "fuck you", or "shot in the streets" they would have. Perhaps the rude way to handle it would have been an outright and immediate lock and ban. It seems to have happened before. Perhaps the rude way would have been for members to jump in with either choice or nonsensical words. That has definitely happened before (I'm guilty). Instead it appears that people responded directly, but respectfully. With as much yelling as their is about the inconsistencies and problems with this site one thing that seems to remain clear is the goal to protect someone's work. "I now realize that I should never ask for people to do things for me. I can't model worth jack in any case. Do you think it's easy to make a 3D model when you have cerebral palsy and poor spatial awareness?" Please don't over reach or over analyze. We all have challenges. Do you want pity? This has been and is a generous community. Look for available freebee substitutes or perhaps politely request that one of the very talented modeling members help you out.

What I want is the model itself, as I only have one Taruru item (and it was fabulous) which is the Scopedog Red Shoulder Turbo Custom. From what I've seen in the galleries, all of Taruru's models were fabulous.

Message edited on: 12/06/2004 15:31

You can also ask in the Wings3D forum if you need a prop, as most people posting there can or is learning to model there is allways a chance someone is looking for something to model.

I want the Jin-Roh soldier by Taruru itself.

What I want is the model itself And we have already explained to you that without express permission from the person that owns the copyright (Taruru), and with Renderosity's policy of trying to uphold copyrights (see all the threads in the copyright forum), there is no way anyone here can send it to you without violating the copyright.

I don't have the Jin-Roh soldier, but MY posted freebies and pictures are FREE and REALLY FREE!

kawecki, the problem here is not whether or not it is "really free." It's a model that was made by an artist who is now deceased. As a result, the file can no longer be downloaded.

If the ORIGINAL read me file that was included with the model states that anyone can redistribute the file at any time, there is no problem. HOWEVER, if there IS no readme file, or if the readme says that you cannot distribute it unless you get permission from the creator, or even if the matter is NOT addressed in the readme, then the law is the law ... it would be illegal to redistribute it.

That IS copyright law, and no amount of temper tantrums can change it. The law applies evenly across the board, whether the artist is alive or dead, and whether the item is free or not.

Message edited on: 12/06/2004 16:00

" The law applies evenly across the board, whether the artist is alive or dead" copyright laws vary from country to country. this is being dealt with under US law atm since this site is a US site. (advisory since descrapencies in country copyright and the berne convention are now coming to light. welcome to the can of worms thats copyright and whats coming down the pipe....)

" I want the Jin-Roh soldier by Taruru itself."

Some legal basics from Brad Templeton's essay, "A Brief Intro to Copyright":

"Under the Berne copyright convention, which almost all major nations have signed, every creative work is copyrighted the moment it is fixed in tangible form. No notice is necessary, though it helps legal cases. No registration is necessary, though it's needed later to sue. The copyright lasts until 50 years after the author dies. Facts and ideas can't be copyrighted, only expressions of creative effort." So, unless he expressed otherwise, you can't redistribute the model in any form for 50 years. That's the law.

Agreed, it IS a can of worms ... but right now it's all we got.

in the UK thats 70 years. not sure, bt I think the US is 75 years. (if Disney don't get an extenstion).... local laws override the berne convention.

Perhaps the artist's family would be honored that their loved ones work was so appreciated. It would probably take some work but you may be able to contact them and ask permission to have the work released to you. You might try this or other Poser communities, or the internet at large to see if contact information can be obtained. Wouldn't it be great if you could be responsible for obtaining permission to release the model to all of the Poser community in perpetuity?

Thanks, maxxx ... that about sums it up. 8-)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12395&Form.ShowMessage=2033136

I've seen this sort of thing at both sci-fi and comic sites. Some 'creator' yelling about how some bozo violated his copyright by sharing his or her Superman model, while never mentioning that Superman isn't his, it's DC's. And I most especially love seeing an Enterprise model whose terms of use include 'credit the model creator in your image'. Yeah credit him but forget that whole owned by Paramount thing.

So while drawing the line in the sand about whats right and whats wrong please explain this rational to me...

Message edited on: 12/06/2004 16:23

"If the ORIGINAL read me file that was included with the model states that anyone can redistribute the file at any time, there is no problem. HOWEVER, if there IS no readme file, or if the readme says that you cannot distribute it unless you get permission from the creator, or even if the matter is NOT addressed in the readme, then the law is the law ... it would be illegal to redistribute it." 1) If the readme states that can be redistributed then is OK to redistribute. 2) If the readme states that cannot be redistributed then it cannot be redistrubuted. 3) If there is not readme, how anyone can state that the will of the author was to forbide the distribution. If I don't include any readme is because there are no restrictions, how dare some "law" to say that my will is different to my real will, maybe the "law" knows more about me than myself.....

1. If there is not readme, how anyone can state that the will of the author was to forbide the distribution. By the same token, how can one assume that the author would allow it to be distributed by someone else? The fact is, because it is not in writing, we don't know for sure. In that case, the law prevails.

The common practice tells that you put explicitly what you do not want and not what do you want.

Very well, I'll try to contact the original author's family and see if I can get the file up for distribution...however, my Japanese language skills are next to nonexistant. Anyone here who can translate?

If there is no readme, the law can assume nothing, law deals only with facts and not with presumptions, suppositions, preconceptions, etc. Of course that there are laws that are very far away from what a law must be, and many are very badly writen.

Attached Link: http://cyobitlab.hp.infoseek.co.jp/

I'm certainly no lawyer (and I'll not try to give that impression) but if I were forced to stand and speak on Sarte's behalf, in respect to this file, I'd argue the following: (1) The file is listed as free and since there is no EULA/readme file included I'm not sure what kind of law covers distribution rights when the file is listed as free (and no other restrictions). After all, since people proclaim freebies with varying restrictions (and I assume those specific restrictions are ones based in some law) it might be that NOT restricting distribution by specific mention leaves the file open for free distribution since one might argue that the creator called it "free" and left it at that. (2) I would also argue that there is a certain amount of "intent of the law" that one might consider here. And I'd throw in the death (condolences to his family) as an additional fact. In other words, IMO, copyright laws are made to protect the creator and since the creator is no longer around, ownership goes to someone else (family, I presume). Though I have no statistics to go on, I'm assuming the average family member (1) might not be oeverly concerned about the distribution of a free item (it's not making money and never was intended to) and (2) might actually like to see his work spread around like that (now that he has passed away)...sort of his work "continuing". Now, having said this, I realize I open myself up for attack. Give it your best shot. This is a special situation for which, I might guess, the law is very tangled. As for me, there is not one soul out there who can say they ever got any warez from me or received re-distribution of a free file. The, by my estimates, over $5,000 I've spent at various sites should show my commitment to doing things the legal way and supporting the hard work of the creators.

Attached Link: http://www.piercelaw.edu/tfield/copyVis.htm

LOL, Arty...being a lazy slob...I sure wish there were a few poignant (sp?) quotes you could have hi-lited...(lazy grin).

Does anyone know if there's a way to log on to the BBS at the website that I posted a link to?

LOLOLOL

OK, here is the summary ...

"Still, the safest course of action (particularly if you have any doubts) is: Do not copy unless you have permission or are sure it is in the public domain! Clip art is sold to be copied -- use that, taking care to note any limitations that accompany it. (For example, I have a CD of clip art that can be used in printed works, but the license expressedly forbids digital distribution. Thus, I cannot use it to liven up my web pages!)"

From another site, the definition of Public Domain is as follows:

"(PD) The total absence of copyright protection. If something is "in the public domain" then anyone can copy it or use it in any way they wish. The author has none of the exclusive rights which apply to a copyright work.

The phrase "public domain" is often used incorrectly to refer to freeware or shareware (software which is copyrighted but is distributed without (advance) payment). Public domain means no copyright -- no exclusive rights. In fact the phrase "public domain" has no legal status at all in the UK."

So it seems to me that unless specifically stated otherwise by the original creator (or, probably his family now, in this case), you need permission to redistribute (copy) it, as some of us have already said.

The link also provided an answer that might pertain to the "fan art" question that Moonbiter raised above ...

"Limits to Copyright

Copyright does not give an owner the right to sell or distribute a work. For example, consider one person's drawing of another's painting. Even if copyrightable (and it may not be), the drawing would infringe copyright in the original painting. Also, of course, the right to sell a work might be affected by laws governing matters such as obscenity or the rights of privacy or publicity of any person depicted."
On the other hand ... "Independent creation is permitted. A second work, identical to an earlier copyrighted work, does not infringe, if it is, in fact, independently created. [Of course, the better known the first work, the less likely that an independent creation defense will be believed.]"

Message edited on: 12/06/2004 18:10

The item was a freebie. There's no way to get in touch with Taruru or his family members. The BBS seems impossible to log on to. There's no reason that this should be something to make a court case out of. It hurts no one. Upon recieving the item, I will not attempt to resdistribute, attempt to profit from, or modify the contents in any way, as that would be disrespectful to the creator of said item. I highly doubt that Taruru would've wanted to limit his freebies to the fortunate few.

Message edited on: 12/06/2004 18:16

Ahhh, thanks much, Arty. Your post makes some good points (thanks for the time-saver). However, I will point to this portion: "Still, the safest course of action". That phrase alone indicates, well, to me, redistribution isn't 100% guarded against and that there are circumstances when it will be allowed (but it cautions to safety). So, my question would be, is THIS situation, as it refers to redistribution, protected or not? LOL...just where IS that law that was made to address a file made to be free, where the creator died, and where there are no additional restrictions made inside it (in the form of a readme or EULA)?

Upon recieving the item, I will not attempt to resdistribute ... as that would be disrespectful to the creator of said item. But you are expecting someone else to do exactly that for YOU, don't you see that?

Mass redistribution without consent would understandably be wrong, but I fail to see how a single copy of an unavailable item would cause legal havoc, especially if said item is free, said item is non-commercial, and said item is a fan-based work of a commercial product.

I rarely get into these furballs, but I feel a need to comment. Take it for what you will. 1- There are still SOME freebies up at the link you posted. That site has been modified since Taruru-san's death. That implies that someone has taken the time to think about what was to be offered, and make that offering a reality. Taruru-san's site is not simply derelict, it was updated. 2- You might try locating some of the Japanese members, many speak excellent English, and are quite helpful IF you approach them in a respectful manner. Good luck.

So, my question would be, is THIS situation, as it refers to redistribution, protected or not? Being that copyright is automatically given upon creation, unless stated otherwise (for example, "I give this to public domain for free use in any way, shape or form, and for redistribution") I would say it's not cool.

There is nothing legally wrong about limited restribution of a non-commercial, non-profit digital item. As I said before, the BBS of the site is impossible to get into. There's no "new user" function for the site. Arty, who is this hurting, and how is it hurting them?

Message edited on: 12/06/2004 18:27

Shogakusha...your post makes good sense. And, it should replace my comments in a way to show that I agree with you. SOMEONE has taken the time to update and maintain that site and if that particular item is no longer offered as free, then we should expect/respect the obvious inferrence that those "in charge" of the discussed item didn't want it offered any longer. I can respect that.

OK ... let me give you an example of another similar circumstance.

A while back, Preset Central (a site that no longer exists) had a female model that was developed under the GNU license. I thought it would be really cool to offer it as a Poserized freebie to the Poser community, so I contacted the original artist.

He said "Sure! That's exactly why I released it! Do what you want with it! You can even sell your modifications and additions along with the model if you want. The ONLY "rule" I have is that you allow anyone else who buys or downloads YOUR mods to do the same.

In other words, I could have provided a free figure to the community. If I added morphs and a texture, I could sell it, but then so could ANYONE else who subsequently bought it and wanted to create their own character from that model.

Now I don't think the model is available any longer (this was over 2 years ago that I was working on it). I still have it on my hard drive, and I was close to getting it grouped and textured. But now that it's no longer available I'm not quite sure what to do with it, so it sits on my hard drive.

Message edited on: 12/06/2004 18:39

Here is the dialogue of the BBS. Click the bottom shadowed figure to access it. It brings up the following dialouge menu: "Please type your password." パスワードを入力してください The right option, "Log" doesn't seem to do anything. I tried typing in Sarte, but got an error message. 集計 ログ

This model isn't one that was for sale, so your example doesn't work. Here are some things to consider: Nobody's making a profit from this. The BBS on the item page does not work, nor is there a way to get into contact with the BBS's users or administrator. The artist of said model is not around to grant me permission to use the model, which was identified as being free. The item won't be redistributed further by me.

Message edited on: 12/06/2004 18:38

The original item was free ... he said I could sell my mods if I wanted (but I would have also made it available for free)

Yes, but this item isn't being redistributed further by me. I'm not selling anything based on the model, as it's non-commercial. I fail to see how that anecdote relates to what we're discussing now, unless you are attempting to intimidate me into quitting by throwing legal terms around.

Message edited on: 12/06/2004 18:49

I give up. I'm outta this one. Education can only work when someone listens.

Resorting to insults is not a constructive way of continuing this argument. I've been civil throughout this argument, and you insinuate that I'm somehow ignorant and obstinant.

Message edited on: 12/06/2004 18:55

Sarte, it's wrong. You are asking someone else to break the law for your benefit. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant.

Who stands to benefit in a monetary sense from this item? No one. What's the harm?