Well I supose I'm about to get in trouble. Bip woop.

I have been here through several forum deletions/illimitations. If things get out of hand you can say good by to that forum. Unless it is a forum for some big name cg program. And yet the biggest cause of contravercy is still up and still causing problems. The hot 20.
Moderators tend to lock threads that have oppinions they don't like or agree with, hot and cold running TOS, artist based cencership, and so on and so on.
Everything you need to know about this site is on the first page. Merchent of the month comes before artits of the month. What is imortent around here is not how good you are, but how much you sell.

Lol! That's funny.
There's lots of malls on the net if you put it this way.
Even real malls need to finance themselves so they can exist so you can be there and shop there and browse there and just be comfortable being there with all the other happy folks from all over that go there in droves.
The real malls I go to quite often because I love shopping have lots of artistic values by way of window dressing and many times even artists and artwork are available, and they would have to pay to be there in some fashion, or I assure you they would not be there.
Museums and art galleries even have shops and stores to sell you thngs at. The zoo, any recreational and even most educational facilities sells stuff or have retail benefits.
I guess your suggesting this place is a mall first, art and community second, but then again, even artists need to be able to know what is available to make art with, and suppose the question you should ask is whether it's beneficial to artits that hang out here? Most of the time it appears to be.
I tend to agree with the hot 20 and won't touch that one, because it is a farce, but it always has been and there's really nothing that can be done about it except get rid of it. I have a feeling even then artist wannabees that want to be better than the best will still find a way to be richly noticed, because that's all that is about, being noticed and noticed and noticed.

Look at me, I'm great because everyone is saying wow at me and my work is the best here! Let them have their fun if it gives them some purpose to enjoying their toil, what's the harm when everyone that comes here knows it's a farce anyways, and even visitors can see it for themselves if they have half of any talent for art. Sometimes it almost seems like the hot 20 is there just so people posting have a purpose and to make some innocent contraversy stay alive.

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 09:15

I always figured the Hot 20 was a useful tool for the mods to notice when a problem image crops up in the gallery. It'd be silly for them to cripple their ability to monitor for hate images by taking down the 20.

Some artists are now at the point of being embarassed to end up in the hot 20 because their art won't be taken seriously. That's sad.

Dear manleystanley, You are correct, the Hot 20 is still an outstanding issue that needs to be addressed. There has been a lot of debate both for and against it and a lot of suggestions on how it might be improved. This is something that we are aware of and will be working on to find the best possible solution. Given the divisiveness of the opinions, it is not going to be an easy fix. Regardless of the decision it is bound to meet with opposition. But, it will be addressed as soon as we can. Best regards, LillianH Renderosity Admin.

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 12:23

How much longer will the PTB be 'working on it'?....This has been going on since Mathusla was born..

here! Here! Lets get this thing dealt with (h20). R has been jerkin around with this for at least a year now.

Don't know who Mathulsa was, whether some great time artist or some nethermonk of the Tibetan mountains, but I've been told out and hereabout that this hot 20 isssue has been going on since the stone ages of this forum, right after wannabees figured out how to get noticed without much creative effort and just loads of derrier smooching. Sounds pretty icky. Feel bad for the folks running this place since it is difficult to fix other than getting rid of the hot 20 or making members wear pants while online here.

Actually I only go to the mall for one reason; and it's even more fun this time of year, to be amused and entertained by the goings on there in. I haven't been very active here of late becuase I find the whole overbairing $$$$ thing a bit much. I read the forums reguler and eventhough the names change, the arguments and topics stay the same. I'm sure this place wont change, but it is nice for the new cg artists to get aquainted and get introduced to the communety. But like myself they eventualy dift off to other cg art sites that put art above freinds and sales figures.

There is another solution to the H20 issue. Allow artist to choose not to participate in it by giving us a DISABLE VOTE BUTTON checkbox when we upload our art. This way a person can choose NOT to be part of the sham and wouldn't have to even think about it anymore. I dont see R getting rid of the h20. At least this would allow me and others the right to stay out of the whole sham voting thing.

manleystanley, what you have to ask yourself is whether you learn anything when you come here, no matter how small or big?
Do you see stuff that rewards your eyes and mind in a nice way and also in a bad way because both can have they're input upon your own imagination?
Do you get to know people here for good reasons or bad?
Do you get inspired or get turned off realizing what you should or most certainly should not do in regards to art and cg.
Believe it or not, even the hot 20 should teach you something.
One thing you have to remember is that at least this forum is still free, and isn't laden with pop ups and spyware and adware and trojans and even hidden viruses.
There may be much controversy here but that's kind of nice in a way because it takes away from the drollness of consistency many places do have.
This forum is like the enquirer of cg art, great to read and complain about while your lined up at the express check out counter with your artistic hopefullness in your basket and those hot 20 folks are just like those nuances that like to bud in your line with more than eight items and get away with it.
At least it's fun at times, and your alive and online and have a computer and can freely say that this is just a lame mall without having a security guard frisk you and escort you out after taking away your basket.

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 16:08

Well if it came to a vote i'd go the way of ditching it all together, it's not needed and as it is it's just a buddy club. Jack

Yep, a Disable Vote button is a good idea. That or simply get rid of the Hot 20s.

I like that idea about the opt-in for the popularity vote. A default of no voting for hot 20 is best. Then it's only those seriously interested in the popularity contest that get screwed around with having to remember to set it for voting, not the majority that don't care to participate. just wish the forums would properly default to no ebots, instead of having to constantly click it off. specially when you forget to click it off, get an ebot message, then go in and turn it off, and still get ebot messages for another week on that thread. seriously concidering making ebot@renderosity.com a spam addy with my webmail provider. then I wouldn't care if it was turned off at all, renderosity's email server get flooding with rejected spam email messages for ebot addy.

LornaW, all of the above.

I vote for opt-in.
What would be hillarious is if less then 20 opt-in.

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 18:04

I mean think about it. We have the option for comments. We have the option to enable rankings. Why not for the H20? Makes no sense. At least then the "friends" can have the h20 all to themselves and those that dont want their work that took 2 weeks to finish below a 10 minute image that friends voted in- Dont have to.

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 18:57

Hi striving, thanks for sharing your idea on the option to participate in the Hot 20 or not. I think this is really good idea and will be happy to share it with the rest of the team.

And to answer jumpstartme2's question:

We will be addressing this situation in 2005. I just don't know how long it will take. I know from the outside it looks like it should be a simple solution. The problem is that trying to devise a "cheat proof" system in not that easy considering the lengths some people will go to try and alter the results.

But, we will do what we can to remedy the situation as soon as possible in a way that best serves the community as a whole.

Much appreciated,
Lillian

Message edited on: 12/18/2004 20:08

We will be addressing this situation in 2005. I just don't know how long it will take That has got to be the most honest and forthright answer I believe I have ever heard from any of the higher ups around here...thank you Lillian :)

Thank you jumpstartme2, anytime :) Now I have to get back to the contest approvals! Hope you all have a great night, Lillian

Attached Link: TOS changes

I think making the H20 opt-in would be a good "quick fix" and would probably take care of most of the issues with it, at least for those who don't hang their life on their H20 placement. Another possible solution, though one likely to be less popular, would just be to get rid of it altogether, as many others have suggested. I'm fine with either approach. I have also posted a more technically sound approach to improving H20 accuracy previously, essentially boiling down to creating an aggregate system that counts and weighs much more than simply votes, similar to how Google ranks pages (a system that seems to provide very good search results, although even it is somewhat susceptible to foul play). This approach might give us the best of all worlds - keeping the H20, but making it more fair - however it would take much more time and effort to implement, and time to work out the best approach through trial and error. So I don't expect such a thing any time soon. Regardless of how it's solved, it's clear it needs some addressing. I also think the TOS may need some changing, in order to address the desire for artistic integrity and development in addition to "being nice". I think artistic integrity is at least as important to foster and even enforce in an "art community" as is keeping foul language, personal attacks, etc. off the forums. See forum thread at attached link for further thoughts. - Oshyan

Hi JavaJones, Thanks for your input. I agree with the opt.in idea. We will be looking at it. I also liked your suggestion about creating an aggregate system that counts and weighs much more than simply votes. That does have merit and is something that will be seriously considered when looking at the best way to update that system. As for artistic integrity, I see where you are coming from and truly understand your desire to inspire people to work at their craft seriously. As a site that fosters education, we do wish to create a positive atmosphere where artists can grow. However, I am not certain that trying to enforce that growth by applying subjective standards to people's art, or censoring people's gratuitous comments would be the best way to go. Thank you very much for taking the time to post and let us know your thoughts. Best wishes, Lillian