Now all the pieces are falling in the right places. The Maximus project was stopped because there would be no way he could sell it properly if M3 was scheduled to be free in 2005. That's among other things he couldn't "talk about the why". This move of DAZ it's very bold and it certainly could broad the customer base but with a single stroke has killed all the other attempts of alternative figures. What would become of Seraphira project?

The Seraphia project is a new mesh with its own innovations that, if it works, put it past Vicky in any current incarnation. Besides, Anton should be thankful... if by some odd miracle he knew this was about to happen, at least he knew far enough ahead of time to not waste too awful much effort on it (though nearly a year of sales would still make his project worth the development effort, so I sincerely doubt that's why he stopped the thing.) We now return you to your regularly scheduled program - "Concert on Grassy Knoll", with Joe Triffid and His Band. (what? I simply HAD to...) /P

Michael 3 and victoria 3 are not so great that they are the only figures anyone wants so other figures can still be made even if they are similar.

I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone chose to revive dead and potentially controversial issues as the result of DAZ' generous strategy, but I'm surprised at how little time it took. Less than three hours. I can't speak for Anton, but as someone how has spoken to him privately at length, believe it's fair to say that he probably wouldn't appreciate learning that strangers are speculating about his attitudes or biz matters that have long since been put to rest, especially while he's away from home and doesn't have regular access to Renderosity. Just a thought in the spirit of fairness. :-) If one thinks one has a new clue as to his "attitudes," one might have tried contacting him privately about it, if it really matters. Or, one could simply say "thanks, DAZ!" and let sleeping dogs lie. I just hope Anton hasn't given up entirely on the Poser community and content creation, I miss his ace talent.

For some of use, the full unimesh resolution is awkwardly heavy on memory use, and adding RAM isn't as cheap as it might be. Not for a hobby, anyway. So there's scope for less resource-heavy figures.

They are free for now, but what certainly the next generation of figures aren't going to be. Plus, there is still a need for male figures and M3 still has the shoulder problem...

Thanks, DAZ! Carefully steps over the sleeping dogs.........

Please don't mislead my intentions. I know very well the history of Anton, his contributions to the poser community and all. He has his motifs and the decisions are solely his own but I was looking forward for his figure and certainly didn't like that he was almost forced to put aside and the reasons and the why leave me a bad feeling around the issue. I'm sure not to be the only one. So when I see that M3 was turned in a free figure the why was certainly clear. He and Maximus project get between the gears of the DAZ machine. I'm worried about the future of third party figures. Maybe many of us certainly think that V3 and M3 could be better than they are now and less resource hungry, but they are very well crafted and are the "standard" in the poser community so if you get them for free you could wait for a long time before thinking of buying another figure. I like the Seraphira figure also but even many of us would buy it as soon she hits the MP how much sales could that really mean. You get my point?

I tried to email Anton a couple times to tell him about this thread, but I think he doesn't have an internet account right now and isn't in a big hurry to get back online. As far as Kaimira is concerned, I think if plenty of people pledge not only to buy her but also support her in terms of freestuff and marketing content, she will hold her own against V3 because of the unique quality of the mesh.

What's so unique about it? I've seen the threads about it, but it wasn't clear to me what's different about it.

I wish Maximus were available. I'd buy him in a hearbeat. Then put him on the Mil Horse; at least one of them would bend correctly :) {and it ain't the horse}. Never let it be said I overlooked the opportunity for a dig.

I'm worried about the future of third party figures.

Technically, all of the DAZ Mil figures are "third party figures".

It's just that DAZ has managed to set such a standard that the true "first party figures" (Don, Judy, et al) -- are virtually ignored.

I've seen the threads about it, but it wasn't clear to me what's different about it.

((Errr....anatomically correct?))

I think that Kaimira holds some promise. She might be -- I say "might be", we won't know until we've actually seen it -- she might offer some variety over the standard "V3 look".

Different morphs. Different overall body shape.

I am interested in the figure. I don't believe that she will replace V3, but Kaimira might be an excellent addition to the library.

Randym77, Kaimira will have some features that Vicki doesn't have. First, she will genitalia, which might not be considered unique as a lot of 3rd party figures have it, but probably not to same extent of detail as Kaimira's. Second, she will have layering which will allow for greater facial detailing as well as body hair. Third, she will not have the unimesh look. And finally, she will have more consumer imput into the creation of the mesh and morphs as Seraphina has posted images specifically asking for people to nitpick in order to achieve an ultrarealistic look. Movida, I would definitely buy Maximus in a heartbeat as well...

Plus, some figures -- or I should say the idea of some figures -- are trumpeted by certain individuals merely because DAZ didn't make them.

It's the whole anti-Microsoft thing in a different form.

Hate the king of the hill.....just because he's the king. And nit-pick every possible/potential flaw. One never can tell -- something might stick.

The idea that Anton knew about this strikes me as unbelievable shaky. First, it assumes DAZ had this planned a year in advance, which I sincerely doubt. I'd guess that the first inkling of this idea was at 6 months ago at most. Second, it assumes that DAZ would tell Anton that they intended to release M3 for free at the beginning of 2005. Why would they do that? Anton was unhappy, was moving into a competitive position with them, and was disputing the scope of his NDA. Why in the world would they tell him information that would destroy their M3 market if it leaked out early?

I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but this one stretches my suspension of disbelief a little too thin.

FryeSpirits, good points... Xeno, I wasn't plugging Kaimira simply because she isn't built by DAZ and I am not anti-DAZ. She will certainly be a welcome addition to those who want to diversify their figure library...

Xeno, I wasn't plugging Kaimira simply because she isn't built by DAZ and I am not anti-DAZ. She will certainly be a welcome addition to those who want to diversify their figure library... PapaBlueMarlin - Actually, my comments were intended as a follow-up to my own post directly above yours. I had not even read your post when I hit "Submit". So, my remarks were not directed at you. Cross-posted. Sorry. And, yes.....as I mentioned also......I fully agree with you that Kaimira looks to be an excellent addition to one's Poser arsenal.

One of the limitations of forum communications. "Refresh" sometimes helps.

I dunno. She does look nice, but as you note, there are a lot other nice figures that languish without support. (Including your favorite, Elle.)

I bought Dacort's Dina because she was anatomically correct. Hey, you never know when you might need a model with accurate genitals. There are some lovely characters for her by Handspan Studios, which I also bought. And she can borrow Vicky's hair. But she's got almost no clothing to speak of, so I very rarely use her. Though I suppose dynamic clothing - unavailable when Dina was introduced - might be the answer.

She does look nice, but as you note, there are a lot other nice figures that languish without support.

A lot of people don't want to acknowledge this point -- but the "look nice" aspect has a LOT to do with a given model's sales figures.

That's a major part of the reason why Dina didn't do so well sales-wise.

Like it or not, a model's looks are key. People tend to go for the thing that pleases the eye. Some individuals don't want to accept this.....but it's true nonetheless.

And this is one reason why I believe that Kaimira has a better chance than some other less-than-spectacular "3rd-party" figures.

"You get my point?" Yes. :-) I didn't mean to misrepresent your intentions, nor did I mean to speak for him, just expressing respect based on some past incidents. No biggie, your intention was clear. "People tend to go for the thing that pleases the eye." Sixus1's Cthulhu is my secret lover.

Regarding Anton: I have no idea why he left DAZ, other than the remarks he posted here. I hope he does return to the Poser "scene" because he's a damn fine artist and a very generous guy, too. Regarding DAZ: I think what they have done is an incredibly brave and generous thing. I have no doubt V3 and M3 would continue to sell well enough that they've probably taken a huge hit in their profits, which (of course) they hope to make up with loyalty sales, feelgood sales, catching new customers and so forth. Regarding non-DAZ models: Maybe I'm in a minority but I make a point of buying almost every human figure I can get my hands on. True, I don't use 'em much (I have yet to render an image with Elle, for example) but I can forsee a time when I will need the diversity of other meshes. The more, the merrier. Another thing which just occurred to me: This here DAZ free idea could well stimulate the market for other content creators. With D|S and the free models it gives a no-risk start to a lot of undecideds. Once they get an idea of what a hell of a lot of fun this 3D lark is, they may well descend on other creators, ready to spend their bucks. This could just be the kickstart we need.

And a lot of people complain that V3 doesn't look pretty enough. They morph her until she does. Usually making her waist smaller, her boobs bigger, her lips and eyes larger, her legs longer, etc. If attractiveness was the key, it would be easy to make a killer figure. The prettiest of them all would prevail. (And would probably look something like the Girl, only with smaller feet. Those hobbit feet just don't look good in the spike heels that are de rigueur in the galleries. ;-)

There are a lot of figures that are pretty "out of the box" - prettier than Vicky, even. But they still don't get support. Neftoon Gal and Elle come to mind. And Dina's sister Natalia, who is more of a conventional beauty than Dina is.

Nope, I think it's support that counts. I don't care how cool the iMac looks, if I can't play Doom III on it, forget it. ;-)

I was wondering how long it would be before the conspiracy theories started. :-) bonni (adjusting my tinfoil hat)

It is nonsense to think that daz controls poser, I hardly ever use the millenium figures because most of them are too big for my computer. Microsoft are "king of the hill" by luck, windows is not the best program. Windows slows down all the computers it is installed on, partly because of the bugs and partly because it is not written in machine code.

Dina can look pretty.

If Dina out of the gate had looked like Handspan Studio's versions of her -- then Dina would have gone up against Victoria -- and possibly come out the winner.

There are a lot of figures that are pretty "out of the box" - prettier than Vicky, even. But they still don't get support. Neftoon Gal and Elle come to mind. And Dina's sister Natalia, who is more of a conventional beauty than Dina is.

Sorry, but I just don't agree with you here. Elle, "prettier than Vicky"? Hmmmmm. To quote the man: "I don't think so.........." IMO, Elle's big drawback is her teeth. Too many and too big.

Neftoon gal? Natalia? Once again, sorry. I feel safe in asserting that the great majority of the male population would hold a very different attitude.

Oh, well -- until "3rd party" character creators are willing to acknowledge the obvious, and to get away from some of the PC thinking that's out there..........

........Victoria will continue to beat them Every-Single-Time.

Well, Geez.. You would think that a successful business model such as the one that Sixus1 utilizes with their "Project: Human" line would have caught on by now...

Oh WAIT... It did... (Edited to remove my inflamatory junk.)

Message edited on: 01/05/2005 20:51

"People tend to go for the thing that pleases the eye."
Sixus1's Cthulhu is my secret lover.

When the sales of Sixus1's Cthulhu figure approach the sales level/community use level/third party accessories production level of V3, then I will acknowledge that the underlying thrust of this statement as true.

Until then: no.

Sixus1's creatures are superb -- no question about it. Excellent creature models, possibly without parallel.

But HP Lovecraft's books don't sell nearly as many copies as Playboy magazine does.

There's no conspiracy in here. There's only a business plot that now it comes to the light for all of us and that has affect. I'm comfortable with the decision because a free V3 and M3 certainly give a boost to every item designed for them. But as it's have been said here support to the figures is the difference and my concern is that now there's going to be more difficult to support a figure which will cost 20-30 dlls (very little for a year or so of work) if the "standard" it's free. This is not another anti-DAZ thing, if they have all the market it's because of us in a vicious circle. I have seen many people complaining of them but also see the same people do stuff for Victoria or another DAZ figure. I don't understand them. BTW Fyrespyrit: I'm quite positive that this decision was taken in the early 2004, must have meetings, the account department of DAZ must have make many reports regarding the actual profits of both figures and must have measured the cost-benefit of the impact in that income. This is not a rash decision, give them some credit.

.

I was just teasing about the conspiracy theories. Honest. I'm a well known smartalec and I was just having a bit of fun. ;-) bonni

What is this new character folks are talking about and where can I get more info on her? Thanks, Marque

Daz figures are first generation for the Daz studio. 8^) Marque

In the first line it should say "...has affect Anton for instance." Xenophonz has nailed an excellent point, how many sells does a figure makes. No figure could get decent support if the sales didn't take off. Dina, Elle, whatever, all had to stand their ground against a comparison that all customers made, V3 or this figure. 90% would go for V3 because of the support she has thus the alternative figure is going to have even less support, another vicious circle. I don't hate V3 or anything, I just want viable choices to choose from. If Kaimira finally get to the MP maybe she could be taken as the flag for all those out there that really want something else. Just hope Seraphira doesnt make the same mistakes as all the other figure makers.

elizabyte: I had picture you as one of the characters of the film "Signals" :)

LOL!!!! bonni

I still say it's support that counts. If making a prettier model was all it took, it would have been done long ago.

Just hope Seraphira doesnt make the same mistakes as all the other figure makers.

Posermatic, what mistakes do you think all the others have made?

I think DAZ would be hard to beat, even if your strategy was perfect. Most merchants work by themselves, part-time, maybe with a friend or two. DAZ has a whole paid staff to make stuff. So they can unveil their new figures with wardrobes of clothing, textures, morphs, hair, sets. While individual merchants have to make everything themselves. There's just no competition.

If someone did make a figure that caught on for some reason, DAZ could just bring out their own. Cheaper, if necessary. With more stuff, definitely. And people would gravitate toward the DAZ version, because of the support.

Yes, that would be "the DAZ way".

Maybe not really mistakes but if you put all the figures together all of them has flaws that could be avoided by, what you just said, working in teams instead of by themselves. If only one person it's involved then the vision gets narrower and things that could be done better are missed (Elle teeth's for example). That's why the DAZ figures are more appealing (among other things) because more people are involved, more eyes to look on for mistakes.
That's the mistakes I mean.

Message edited on: 01/05/2005 22:26

If making a prettier model was all it took, it would have been done long ago.

Please: just take a look at the top-selling character packages in the marketplace. You won't find a single "plain" or "ordinary" character among them.

For some reason, this fact seems to really upset some people.

But I would remind them that it was ever thus. What's more: it will ever be thus.

It just ain't fair. But it's reality.

I still say it's support that counts.

To a point, I agree with you here. Victoria has such a hold and depth on the market at this time, that it would be extremely difficult for any other figure to make an inroad.

But support isn't the whole story -- not by a long shot.

Once again: there are clear and obvious reasons for the photographs of smiling, beautiful young women dressed in bikinis on the covers of the vast majority of slick magazines that one can find on the racks at grocery stores.

Marketing types know certain things. There are two matters that will attract attention -- and these matters spring up from the depths of the human psyche:

1. Extreme Beauty.
2. Extreme Ugliness.

People will stop and stare at a beautiful woman on display. Likewise, people will stop and stare at a gory mess on display.

Beautiful girls and monsters -- these are the things that tend to sell. And in that order.

Psychologists say that two subjects have a more profound effect on the human mind than any others: Sex and Death.

Any marketing people that are worth their salt both know and acknowledge this fact. That's why products are advertised the way that they are advertised.

Unfortunately, in the current PC climate -- acknowledging such simple facts goes against the grain of many.

It violates certain sacred tenets of early 21st-century mythology. So, we have to pretend that the obvious isn't real.

Victoria will continue to beat them Every-Single-Time.

But Kaimira might just be the one to give Victoria a run for her money. Maybe.

In any case, she looks to be an excellent choice for anyone. To add to V3 in the library, or as a standalone.

Personally, I don't see such things as an either/or choice -- an issue where people have to choose up sides, and then proceed to yell at each other.

You can enjoy chocolate ice cream and vanilla at the same time. Message edited on: 01/05/2005 22:31

I'm not saying that looks don't count. I am saying that looks are not enough. And I truly think that Victoria, out of the box, is not that pretty. I think DAZ was going for "average" with her. A slightly idealized average, but average. There's a reason why those gorgeous character sets sell so well.

I don't think anyone's choosing up sides and yelling. But an either/or choice - for many of us, yes, it is. Not everyone can afford to buy every figure that comes out. Let alone their clothes, textures, hair, etc. Nobody wants to be on the Betamax side of a market war - owning the superior product, but not able to use it, because there's no support.

I hope Kaimira succeeds. She looks like a great figure. But I won't be buying her until I see how much support she'll get.

But I won't be buying her until I see how much support she'll get.

Here's where the vicious cycle begins: if the figure doesn't sell, then after few intial stabs at it, 3rd-party merchants will forget that the figure exists.

This is what has happened to: Dina, Natalia, Amy, et al.

If lots of people buy a figure, and corresponding 3rd-party merchants then start to see brisk sales on their initial packages for that figure -- then we've got a whole other ball game.

It's possible with figures like Kaimira.

It'll never happen with figures like Dina. Unless if that future "Dina" looks like Handspan's version of her.

Looks count for a lot.

Part of Seraphina's plan was textures and a few clothing packs for her. So Kaimira isn't going to be released unprepared for the market...

Great. Glad to hear it. I'll support her.

I think support counts for more. A lot more. (I look for support first, and adaptability second. I want the character to be able to look different - ugly, pretty, old, young, black, white, Asian, etc.) It's why I'm willing to buy DAZ characters as soon as they're released. Even their "neglected" characters like David and SP get more clothes than most non-DAZ characters.

No matter how pretty the character is, it's going to be awfully hard to fight market forces, which is what you're doing when you try to introduce a new character. Unless you have a group of people who are doing it solely for principle - because they want diversity, or hate DAZ, or whatever. If you can sell 300 copies of a dress for V3, or 100 copies of a dress for SP, why make a dress for a non-DAZ character that will sell five copies? Even "ugly" DAZ characters sell well and get lots of support compared non-DAZ characters.

Message edited on: 01/05/2005 23:05

No matter how pretty the character is, it's going to be awfully hard to fight market forces, which is what you're doing when you try to introduce a new character. Unless you have a group of people who are doing it solely for principle - because they want diversity, or hate DAZ, or whatever. If you can sell 300 copies of a dress for V3, or 100 copies of dress for SP, why make a dress for a non-DAZ character that will sell five copies? Even "ugly" DAZ characters sell well and get lots of support compared non-Poser characters.

I don't have any disagreement with you on this point.

We agree.

It'll be difficult for anyone to overcome Victoria's commanding position in the marketplace. Extremely difficult.

But one starts out with two strikes already, when one creates something "less than" in the looks department -- perhaps based upon PC thinking.

I think support counts for more. A lot more.

Without a doubt, support counts for a lot, too.

But the figure has to sell itself FIRST. Afterwards, the 3rd-party content support can follow.

Lots of owners of a figure = lots of sales all the way around. Including for content providers.

You aren't going to generate that type of user base by creating a Dina.

It's the old saw about creating a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Far better to start out with silk material in the first place. Makes the goal a lot easier to accomplish down the road.

"But I won't be buying her until I see how much support she'll get. "

Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies!

:deep sigh:

And it isn't free if you have to pay more money to make it work... like a razor isn't worth much with no blades. Can you even open the mouth without the morph packs?

Message edited on: 01/05/2005 23:23

I don't think anyone makes unattractive figures out of political correctness. You may not think Dina is pretty, but she was modelled after a woman that a lot of men found very attractive. But not everyone has the same taste, and it's not easy to make a mesh that captures a likeness well. I don't think DAZ's Anna Marie Goddard model was any better. From her photos, she's a stunning woman, but her Poser model has an old, harsh-looking face.

Carolly, yes, you can! DAZ recently re-did both the M3 and V3 bases so that they include the basic expression morphs. Like SP, they can smile, blink, etc., without the morph packs.

I'm sure they aren't planning to lose money on this deal, any more than Microsoft is losing money by giving away Internet Explorer. But the V3 and M3 bases they are giving away are very usable characters. You do need textures, clothes, and hair for them, but there are lots of freebies and non-DAZ sources for those.

I suspect users of high-end software might find these models of interest, too, now that they are free. They can make their own morphs and clothing, and rig them to work in their 3D programs.