Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/book

Deadline?

Hi ArtyMotion, From the link: "Deadline: Closing date: May 31, 2005 All entries must be date and time stamped by May 31, 2005, at 11:59p.m. (CST - Renderosity Server Time)."

k - if I read this right, it's a competition you have to pay to take part in.

Nein, danke.

Message edited on: 02/01/2005 17:15

Nein, danke. I couldn't say it better myself.

Hey, why doesn't Rendo actually PAY the artists and give a promo copy of the book also ?? I mean, Rendo has created and sold books, playing cards, DVDs and magazines from totally free content. I am sure that they make enough profit to actually PAY up front. It is the stand up right thing to do. And other books that get published get many if not all of the the same 'benefits' listed above. --Rebekah--

hmmm a it's like a comp that you have to pay for to enter? hmmm...and the prize, you get the book?.... er... well, i think i would be better off keeping my money and looking at everyones work here, and everyone looking at mine without having to pay,This seams like someones making some money out of others work? or am i missing something?

Attached Link: http://www.ballisticpublishing.com/books/expose3/

oh man, I am not nearly as good to enter. :)

"oh man, I am not nearly as good to enter. :)" Yes, you are. Just don't fork over any cash to get your work seen. IMO, it works the other way round - that is, people fork it over to see your work. Never, EVER pay to exhibit your stuff. There's enough of that shite in music.

"I mean, Rendo has created and sold books, playing cards, DVDs and magazines from totally free content." Hmm, yes......somehow I think I'll be passing on this "opportunity". If the reason for the entry fee is to prevent people from just submitting any old rubbish, someone may just have shot themselves in the foot with this one, as it will discourage a lot of people, I would have thought.

Attached Link: http://www.spectrumfantasticart.com/faqs.html

20$ per image just to enter?!..with no guarantee of being accepted..like maxxxmodelz says 'Expose'(or anything from Ballistic publishing) has no such submission fees..& the artists who get published in that book also get discounts on the book. Rosity should really be paying US for the right to publish our work. thanks for the oppurtunity..but I'll pass..just got an email that Expose is calling for entries too,and it wont cost me a cent to submit :) Stefan

Spectrum charging must be a recent occurence as I'm sure in the past they didn't charge either

Thanks for the explanation, LillianH. I still be passing this one - not that the digital art world would ever miss ol' Sam. :)

"Yes, you are. Just don't fork over any cash to get your work seen. IMO, it works the other way round - that is, people fork it over to see your work."

Ty Sam, I don't pay to enter contests anymore, been there, done that, got burned. I did that a few times as a writer and lost money, didn't win, money I could have used. I learned my lesson. You really shouldn't have to pay to enter a contest. It seems this is all they do now to make their money for contests. 20 dollars is way to expensive of a fee just for a digital image. If I had that kind of money to burn, I'd used it on Poser items instead. I work a low wage job, too steep for me even if I thought I was good enough to win.

Message edited on: 02/01/2005 18:55

Maybe if there was a Rendo gift certificate to cover the costs of the entry, I'd give it a whirl, but I'm with the others that it isn't worth the price to be considered. There may be valid reasons to charge the fee, but it's still not an enticing offer. I'm not quite the kind of caliber that would have a winning entry, so it would be money lost.

To the best of my knowledge Spectrum has always charged. The submission fee is $20 for the first image. Then $10 for each additional image (up to 5 total).The total fees could not exceed $60. Our fees are honestly quite reasonable when compared to many of the juried shows, expositions, and other publications that are currently holding "Open Calls" at www.theartlist.com As always, I respect and understand everyone's different perspectives and individual decision whether to participate or not. I just wanted everyone to have a full, comparative picture. Thanks for understanding, Lillian

"The fees off-set the administrative, printing, and distribution fees. (The cost of printing a high-quality book is substantial.) Plus, artists that are selected get a level of professional exposure that they otherwise would not have direct access to." Well, that's a good reason, but here's the thing... The people who would be making this book possible by submitting their art are most likely the same people who keep this site alive by purchasing merchandise from the store and submitting their artwork to the galleries for public view. To say that publishing a book like this is expensive, well, that's understood. It's also a risk that most publishers take. If they feel they wouldn't be able to cover the expenses and then eventually make a profit from the sales of the book, then most simply don't take the risk. There must be a better way to raise money for this. Making a movie costs money too. Even Independant film makers find ways to raise money for a film without essentially forcing the actors to pay their way in. Some Indie actors work for free (for exposure), some get paid a little bit, but rarely are they required to pay the production company to star in the film. The producers almost always have to dig into their own pockets, even if they have investors.

"The fees off-set the administrative, printing, and distribution fees. (The cost of printing a high-quality book is substantial.) Plus, artists that are selected get a level of professional exposure that they otherwise would not have direct access to." maxxxmodelz beat me to it. I agree fully. I always wanted to produce my own 3D animation films, the expense would comeout of my own pocket, not someone elses. To put it in a nutshell: Why should those that enter have to front the cost of the publication & the printing? Isn't that what subscribers are for? Isn't that what reader's are for? I'm not ragging on the contest or the way anyone manages their business but this is onething I never understood about charging for reading fees and or contest fees.

Doesn't renderosity get 50% of everything sold in the marketplace?

"maxxxmodelz beat me to it. I agree fully." No. I beat you all to it. :) Polishes nails :D "Nein, danke", is what I said. That's all yer need, nae more, nae less. All the breakdowns of costs are irrelevent. Like explaining why the bereved's grandmother exploded, it don't matter. Nobody cares, they just know ol' Granny shook a seven.

LMAO. Sam, now if I only knew what you just said.

Lillian; Whiel the above is true, it doesn't mean that people here won't take it as a slap in the face. There is absolutely no incentive I can see in entering search a contest. Possible exposure does not cut it.

.

Sorry, but I think I'll pass. Paying to enter a competition is pretty lame. I couldn't care less in regards to the publisher's breakdown of costs, etc. I see enough of that in the music industry where middle-men make money of the gullible/desperate. Personally given the other publications out there that don't charge you for submitting your work (some with MUCH greater exposure), I think this is kinda ridiculous and somewhat offensive. Like LillianH, I can respect that other people's opinions may differ - however I do not have to respect the offer itself shrug

I'd want to be published for 60 bucks, period. If I was going to pay that kind of money, then I'd want a slot in the publication. Not to be pissed away on a contest that you surely couldn't win. :) There's a showcase forum??? (MHO)

The fees off-set the administrative, printing, and distribution fees. (The cost of printing a high-quality book is substantial.) Plus, artists that are selected get a level of professional exposure that they otherwise would not have direct access to.

If the artist is going to get that much exposure, then one would think advance orders would offset the publication costs. It also appears that this is a "submission fee." What if the artist gets rejected? Is it fair for that person to pay for the administration, publication costs, and distribution of a book that he/she will not appear in? Or are you basically accepting anything that anyone submits, as long as they pay the submission fee? In that case, it raises questions about the quality of the publication. I could render a metallic sphere floating over an ocean, pay you my $20, and get in the book?

Message edited on: 02/01/2005 21:21

"Plus, artists that are selected get a level of professional exposure that they otherwise would not have direct access to. " Computer Arts, 3DWorld, etc etc etc etc etc all free to submit to, all magazines used by the trade, all with the same chances of being published. infact more so. they run all year not just once.

My main issue, aside from having to pay to have my art possibly showcased, is that if I pay $60 to submit 5 pieces, and none of them are accepted, I still have to pay out another XX amount of dollars to buy the book. If think that if the entry was free, and the authors could pick and choose from all entries to publish several, that's much more fair to the artists and the community that supports this site,rather than extorting a fee for the priviledge of maybe, possibly being published. I'll save my money, thank you.

laugh You know something, there has only been one person stating that this competition is "fair" (on this thread at least). Says something doesn't it, when most other subjects have arguments punted back and forth over the most trivial of subjects.

There's a lot of competitions that do charge the contestants entry fees. Poker tournaments come to mind immediately. However, in this case, I think the problem is that the "contestants" are most likely already contributing to the success of this institution in some way, and it feels a bit more like a "nickel and dime" scenerio than it does an opportunity. After all, you're asking all the participants to take a risk by investing their own money for the "chance" to be chosen and seen, meanwhile reducing the risk of losing some money on your end.

There are possible alternative solutions:

1. Find investors who aren't also the talent.
2. Invent a "revshare" system that allows the paying participants a small cut of the profits made from the sales.
3. Take the risk.

:-)

Message edited on: 02/01/2005 21:32

">> The fees off-set the administrative, printing, and distribution fees. (The cost of printing a high-quality book is substantial.) Plus, artists that are selected get a level of professional exposure that they otherwise would not have direct access to. If the artist is going to get that much exposure, then one would think advance orders would offset the publication costs. It also appears that this is a "submission fee." What if the artist gets rejected? Is it fair for that person to pay for the administration, publication costs, and distribution of a book that he/she will not appear in? Or are you basically accepting anything that anyone submits, as long as they pay the submission fee? In that case, it raises questions about the quality of the publication. I could render a metallic sphere floating over an ocean, pay you my $20, and get in the book?" I think all of us would like to here an answer to that. I choose, 2) Invent a "revshare" system that allows the paying participants a small cut of the profits made from the sales.

(looks at thread, goes "WTF!?", meanders on...) /P

Every professional article I've read on submitting your work either art or written have pretty much flat out said to never pay for the privledge of being included in an book, anthology or magazine. No way would I pay to enter a contest where I might not even get picked to be in the book I'm paying fees to help it get published.

That is how the term "vanity press" got its name. 8-)

In the writing world: the pros warn you: NEVER PAY A FEE to get published or enter or pay any fees to have your material read, not even by an agent, should hold true to the 3D artworld as well. So, now, the big scam in today's publishing world is to run contests and charge whatever amounts they want for a fee that is non returned. Geez, if I wanted to piss my money away like that, I'd be a published writer instead of a struggling animator. What about copyright? Who owns the copyright after it's published? Beware of publications that steal copyrights from artists. Not saying this one does, with any contest you enter, read the fine print. For 60 bucks I could enter 2 writing contests compared to 1 3D Art contest. For 60 bucks I could publish my own work in my own publication, minus, the middleman. Can you imagine the amount of money that will go into their pockets at 60 bucks a wack? I suggest if people enter they read everything about how this contest is run including discaimers, if any. You can publish anywhere online, mags and get the same amount of exposure, a fee charging contest promises you.(MHO)

Message edited on: 02/01/2005 23:45

Geez, if I wanted to piss my money away like that, I'd be a published writer instead of a struggling animator LOL I'm a published writer and I've never had to pay anything for getting published.

Artymotion, hear hear. This is, indeed, kind of a slap in the face to those artists who do support RMP with their funds and, in essence, give RMP free advertising by using their exclusive products. You have Firebirdz, 3Dream, Hongyu, BVH, face_off, Wusamah, BATLAB, Vali, Danae, and Gwendolyn - all from your best sellers list - selling incredibly high-quality products EXCLUSIVELY through your MP. I don't submit poetry to any contest where I have to pay to enter so I can get a poem in a shiny book. But even in that instance I have higher odds of actually being included, and if I'm not selected, I still get a volume. From the reactions here from the artists, do you still honestly think that this is a good idea? counts irked responses 21 out of 38 posts are negative. I wouldn't bet on it. RC

Geez, if I wanted to piss my money away like that, I'd be a published writer instead of a struggling animator

LOL I'm a published writer and I've never had to pay anything for getting published. >>>

I just meant that if I had to keep paying to enter contests, I'd be a pro author by now by self-publishing. If I wanted to pay to be published, that'd be the way to go. Self-publishing a novel is much easier than going from contest to contest etc. It got too costly for me to keep submitting to publishers, had one short published years ago, switched back to animation when my luck ranout with the publishing world. :)

Message edited on: 02/02/2005 00:22

I hear ya, zippy ... I started out as a struggling artist, got into writing (which kept me busy and the bills paid for seven years) and now I'm back to being a struggling artist. Once I hear that writing is lucrative again (there was a big lull) I may just go back to it. I have to agree with the sentiment here, though. Renderosity supposedly takes pride in their community, but this doesn't strike me as being very complimentary to them. 8-(

I love animation, took classes in it. More so than writing. I was only good at writing mysteries and some horror. If I had the money, I'd be self-publishing my work. I can understand wanting to make a buck, but Jesus 60 bucks? All they seem to want is the free content you give them and your money without being published. It should be an open contest to all 3D artists. I can see paying for SASE's and maybe even a very small fee but not that amount of money. (MHO):)

Message edited on: 02/02/2005 00:27

Never ever pay to get your work exposed or published. You get the "honour" they the cash. Happens also in real world. If you have to pay for a show (rent the gallery, lighting, opening, printwork,...) don't exhibit. Tougher when you start, but good for your self-respect. And sorry: R. does not have the "right" reputation to impress people and find buyers or collectioners. For that, go to cgtalk.com and see their contests and their publications (ballistic). You don't pay and you get in touch with real patrons and commissions.

Wow, just when you think you had heard it all...

Makes those folks that sell "Get rich quick" schemes on ebay look pretty honest in comparision. RLOFLMAO !

Whats next...Making Renderosity a PAYSITE to cover the costs of browsing the marketplace ?
(Getting FIFTY PERCENT of all sales must hardly cover the costs, hmmm?)
I mean, it is PRIVILEDGE to be able to BUY all this wonderfull stuff, so Im sure all those nice members here would be more than happy to pay for it.

Yeah, right. :-(

I think this "offer" is despicable and detestable and shows corporate GREED at its best.
But then again, this is Corporate America, where a render of the nude human body is a sin but exploiting the hopes and dreams of ordinary people to make some bucks is called a virtue.

Hast thou no shame ?

stahlratte

S'funny when I read this thread last night my thoughts were "stuff that" and "there's no fee to enter a submission for the Expose 3 competition" and Expose 3 as someone has already mentioned /is/ a benchmark in the CG art world. If expose can be sold without entrants having to pay why then do entrants have to pay for this one - esp. when there is no certainty that one would have their submission published. Global exposure for free? Someone mentioned 3D Wrold and Computer Arts, both mags I subscribe to and have discovered some amazing artists (recently a poser one too). I go back then to my original reaction. Stuff that!

As someone who has written a number of chapters for edited books in my other life, IMO this isn't a very sensible business model. Normally, the publisher will set a budget for a book which will include the costs of editing, printing, distribution, payment to author(s) etc. and will rely on the sales to recoup the outlay and hopefully make a profit. If the projected sales don't cover the budget, the book doesn't get published.

Naturally the likelihood of sales will depend on the quality of the content, ignoring whatever promotional devices can be used to inflate sales, and therefore the publisher will want to attract the best authors (or in this case artists) with a track record of producing high quality copy to timetable.

The effect of the method used here is to offset the initial outlay and reduce the risk of loss by charging the contributors, but against that is the possibility - actually pretty near certainty having read the comments in this thread - that the best artists will not bother to contribute, because they don't need to. So you run the risk of the contributors to the book comprising the B team, as it were, with reduced quality and therefore reduced sales (and incidentally, reduced credibility if the exercise is repeated in the future). Doesn't make sense to me. (Speaking from the viewpoint of someone who no matter how many $$$ he forked out wouldn't get chosen!)

Lillian;

I would honestly check into the legality of such a contest.

This does have all the earmarks of a scam and could land Renderosity in serious legal trouble.

The fact remains that when Professionals advise you not to pay to submit items, then you can be sure that there is a scam.

I would seriously have Jenyk look into it on a legal level.

Ethically speaking, this is reprehensible. Making Prospective artist who are not even guaranteed a place in the book cover the expense for it's publication?

To quote the Penguin...

WTF?

Message edited on: 02/02/2005 08:12

in the UK (and I think the US) this kind of deal is known as the "model scam" you answer an advert in the paper looking for models. you go along and you are charged for the photos and an admin fee. then you never hear from the agency again. repeatedly in the UK the police and watchdog groups tell you : no money up front. I repeat that advice here. sorry if that offends renderosity. tough. I listen to the police and groups that look out for consumer interests.

Normally, the publisher will set a budget for a book which will include the costs of editing, printing, distribution, payment to author(s) etc. and will rely on the sales to recoup the outlay and hopefully make a profit. If the projected sales don't cover the budget, the book doesn't get published. Very true. Or they take the loss. That is one of the reasons that you don't see books published on every software program .. only the ones with the largest user base. So, the way to offset the costs of administrating, publishing, and distributing the book is to go to those people you said the book would be exposed to, and ask for advance orders. But it is not only unfair, but very disrespectful to ask those who are providing the content to pay for the costs of printing the book. If anything, Renderosity should be paying those who are selected, even if it is with a free copy of the book.

"From the reactions here from the artists, do you still honestly think that this is a good idea? ... I wouldn't bet on it." I obviously don't think it's a good idea either, but judging from the comments I browsed in the Bryce forum, there's going to be some folks who think it's perfectly fair. shrugs Opinions vary I guess.

What about copyright? I clicked the entry link to see what rights the contest owners are assuming and they're reasonable, essentially the right to publish the work in the book and use it and the author's name with regard to promoting the book. There are a lot of very unreasonable agreements out there using a standard licensing arrangement that irrevocably gives the licensee nonexclusive rights to the content that allows them to go so far as to even sell such content along with the rights to whomever they choose. That license was in a contest that DAZ cosponsered (not typical of their regular license for their wholly sponsored contests and gallery) and the Internet Movie Database, IMDB, uses it, as well as others. Rendo's only asking for rights in association with publishing and promoting the book and that seems appropriate. I'm always surprised how emotional these kinds of conversations get and how quickly people forget that Renderosity is providing a free gallery and free forums. It's not nice to bite the hand that's helping us. This isn't a scam or anything being put out by a fly-by-night outfit. If there were a high probability that I could get into the book, I'd consider entering a piece, particularly since I'd get a copy of the book in return. Without much expectation of winning, it's not worth throwing away the money.