Sorry about the deleted thread. I wanted to repost it without certain quotes, didn't realise that I couldn't do a 'reply' once the lead post was deleted. So here's the post without the quotes: It's 5.30 in the morning here, and I finally got up because I haven't been able to sleep, so upset with what's been happening on this forum. I've deleted my gallery, and was about to end my membership...but decided that instead I'd post an opinion. Any regulars here know the history of what's been happening, so I won't bother going over it again. I'd like to point out that none of us know anything about the circumstances of other forum members. I used to belong to a forum where a member had a major breakdown, because of longterm bullying by two other forum members. That's one of the reasons why I react when individual members are named and criticised if their work appears in the Hot 20. I feel that on an international site like this, admins and mods should be required to read up on the dynamics of bullying, how it works, how it spreads, what an unpleasant climate it produces for everyone else. I couldn't care less whether prorender is a hoax or not. Half the people on this forum could be living in lala land, for all I know. But there's a limit to the amount of abuse that members should be allowed get away with. This should have been nipped in the bud a long time ago. Now that Daz has bought Bryce, new users will be looking for forums to join. If I joined a new forum and saw kids getting away with that kind of posting, I'd move on elsewhere. This is impacting on everyone's enjoyment of the forum. This site isn't a playground for a special few. It isn't their decision who has the right to post here, and who doesn't.

Amen... I am just as bad as the rest... I apologise to the community at Large...

I think I missed something here... H20? Is there a thread about it???

I think it's more of a general statement, in light of past threads and comments. Edit: Not to sound insensitive, but how does someone get so affected by comments in a forum that they have serious mental breakdowns? If you don't like something in a forum, you just stop going...simple as that. No one forces you to read it, and no one tells you you should take the opinion of people harassing you over digital media seriously.

Message edited on: 02/06/2005 00:14

Think it has more to do with the Drac/pumeco "As the World Turns" threads.

"Not to sound insensitive, but how does someone get so affected by comments in a forum that they have serious mental breakdowns?" I don't know the individual in question, but I would surmise that kind of thing happens because there are a lot of lonely people in the world who depend on virtual relationships more than others do, for whatever reason. An internet forum full of faceless nicknames may mean little to some folks, but it can easily mean a lot to someone else.

Hey, Pog, I really do not see it that way, when I see thread like that, I just yawn and go to next one, ignoring threads like that is the best way of killing them, people who desperatly need attention through threads like that will starve if we ignore it (simple as that)! :D

Nevertheless, I have to say, also, that I do not appreciate people who make promisses they cannot keep, so, regardless what their "fight" is all about, i tend to have much, much greater respect for Drac then Len, cuz this forum is, and it always will be about sharing things, models, tips, opinions, art or whatever, and that is how I will evaluate people here, period :D

And, one thing I never understood here, why is so hard NOT to press submit button, if you think that something you gonna post is going to make people mad, why ???

my 2 cents...Kemal

Words do affect people. Thats what words are meant to do, communicate. Otherwise, all this, this we have here, is meaningless. Theres no reason for being here, on the Internet if words meant nothing to us. Why would we be plucking away at our keyboards if for no other reason? It would be like talking to your imaginary friend, Charlie, who only tells you what you want to hear. Some people ARE more sensitive than others for whatever reason. Indigosplash, you are so right! In this day and age, people from all over the world and all walks of life are available to interact with people who would not even travel pass their doors to socialize. The Internet, becomes their world. Sad, yes, but thats okay, at least they have something. I think what Slakker is trying to say is, that we mustnt take things too seriously. That we must know when to draw the line. But that is often easier said than done. In any case, I agree with Pog, we have this situation and we must deal with it. My perspective is: that we must try not to be judgmental towards each other. I find that a lot of arguments are started unwittingly by people being judgmental towards each other; Judgmental: tending to judge or criticize the conduct of other people. Key word here=conduct!

A good trick I've learned is to read my post from the other person's point of view before posting, to see if my jokes could be understood (often times I find they sould like insults due to bad wording, when the often is often meant), or if they just sound too harsh or critical of a work or person. And I can easily see how somone could have a mental breakdown, especially if it's on a topic about something they feel very strongly about, such as feminism, politics, or religion. I have no idea why feminism is in there. I think I was trying to think of controversial topics. Is feminism controversial? Nvm.

LOL...don't know Mrdodobird, you tell us! But seriously, it's hard to be able to put yourself squarely in someone else's shoes. Wed like to know what everyone else thinks and we often entertain the idea that people must think the way we do! After all, how silly are they if they didnt? LOLthe fact is, we truly dont know, or even can conceive how other people think. People come from different backgrounds, cultures and up-bringings. How dare we assume that everyone else thinks the way I do! Just food for thought.

slakker, what i am going to say may not have anything to do with forums but it is a good example of how words can upset someone. For 3 years i hosted(Monitored) chatrooms at chat.msn.com before Participate.com took over the running of them. I would spend 2-3 hours hosting 4-7 rooms at a time. At one stage a chatter started to abuse me, insult my wife and family, this went on for close on 8 months. We kept banning the chatter but he came back with different nicks and he was using netcafes to join these chatrooms. At one time he actually said something so hurtful i broke down and cried. It ended up i had to be banned myself so that i had time to get over the problem. So whether it be a forum, email, IM or a chatroom words from one person can hurt one or many people :)

Pogmahone please don't leave just because of this recent thread. It really would be so sad if you did. Your voice is so often the voice of reason in controversial debates. Having said that I have to admit I was seriously considering curtailing my active participation in this forum, because of this and other recent threads. It seems to me that at the moment the bryce forum could easily go the same way the poser forum did a while back, when so many of the old members left rather than cope with the day to day flame wars. An element has crept into this forum that was never there before and I don't understand why. I have to admit that I am one of the so called "sad" individuals to whom the internet tends to be a major part of my life, although the circumstances that led to this are not what may be considered the normal ones. I Gave up work and was a carer for my mother-in-law, who lived with us. She was almost 94 when we lost her, and for the last two years of her life caring for her became a 24/7 way of life. As we live in an isolated spot it was a fact that during this period the only "real" people I saw were those who visited here, I was unable even to go shopping unless my other half was home from work. It takes a while to rebuild a real life after that sort of happening. You certainly find out which of your friends are the true friends!

Thanks for all the very reasonable replies, folks

and foleypro, that was very graciously said :^)

Kemal - I think that people often post, then later regret how rude they've been. Good job there's a delete button, or there'd be non-stop range wars lol.

When I started this thread I hadn't realised that Zhann had already posted in another thread, asking us all to drop the subject. So I'm going to comply with her wishes now, and hope it all dies a natural death, and we can get back to our usual fun-loving selves ;^) Edit to add - I couldn't leave anyway, because I'm halfway through making a freebie Joshua tree and matching cactii :-P

Message edited on: 02/06/2005 03:31

Well...you better not! ;P

Do they have names?...I mean, Joshua and Cactii? ;)

I am not sure what is happening, and that is alright, what I do know is I have always been impressed with the Bryce forum, due to the fact that all people were sival with each other, caring and helpful. I must have missed something big, but that does not mean it can't get better again. I am sure if there is a problem, we all can fix it and make it good again. Sharen

I'm not too sure if I had a part in that thread as I can't find it now, but it's so easy to forget that there are real people on the other side of the screen with real feelings. If in the past I've said/typed anything that's upset someone I sincerely apologise for it.

1st of all; sorry to hear you've deleted your gallery, I do not believe that was really neccesary... I mean, what difference would it make to people's behaviour? It's sad to have one gallery less now :( I honestly regret you feeling you needed to delete your gallery 2ndly, as for the whole debate topic and such; I see a hoax, I WILL tell it is a hoax and I will support anyone who shares that opinion. If peeps don't piss me off I'm perfectly nice, as I've been for just about forever on here. Many people in here will know that. But if a hoax comes along and the hoaxer keeps comming back and the whole thing keeps dragging along and we give the hoaxer multiple oppertunities to proove himself, and he doesn't, then that's highly suspicious. And after more then half a year that is also highly irritating. Now if after already causing all this irritation this hoaxer then comes up with the bloody guts to threaten the peeps trying to get everyone to see it is nothing but a hoax, my patience is so defenitely gone. I'm sorry, but I have a zero tolerance policy for hoaxes, so deal with it. -- Ray (that's my final verdict, and that's what you're gunna have to live with 'cause I'd like to close this chapter now)

Quote from my previous post
When I started this thread I hadn't realised that Zhann had already posted in another thread, asking us all to drop the subject. So I'm going to comply with her wishes now, and hope it all dies a natural death, and we can get back to our usual fun-loving selves ;^)

Message edited on: 02/06/2005 06:46

Well said Pogmahone. I concur.

Quest: Charlie says to leave him out of it. Imaginary friends have feelings, too.

If you go on vacations and it's sunny for thirteen days and rains for the last day, you will only remember the rainy day. I can understand that you're upset about the rain, but it can't rain all the time. I have a feeling the clouds are fading and the sun is about to shine again.

@Rayraz You clearly need to "cool it" dude. As much as it pains me to do so at this moment in time, I'll keep this response to you in the civil manner of which I started out here. When someone is developing a product, thay are under NO obligation to give out that product in order to prove it's validity. If that were the case, then we'd all be able to demand an advanced copy of Bryce 5.5 from DAZ, or tell them that their product is a hoax. Now I may be wrong here, but that doesn't strike me as being correct. What you're doing is calling my product a hoax, simply because you don't have the product, so do have you ANY idea how crazy that sounds? What you need to remember 'raz, is that I don't need to get an approval from you, draculaz, or anyone else in order to validate my product. PRO-RENDER is a RENDERING based product, and I've done my bit by posting "renders" created using it, as THAT was the obvious thing to do in regards to this product. No offence, but by calling PRO-RENDER a hoax, it's my guess that you're making yourself look a fool in front of some of the Bryce experts in this forum who understand what the product is. @Kemal I find it strange that you can judge people, on whether they decide to produce free or commercial products. That's your call, and you're entitled to judge people however you wish. @pogmahone I'm sorry to hear you'd deleted your gallery. I know deep down, you'll upload it again. I only hope you've got broadband to make it a little less tiring ;-) @drawbridgep If you mean that through PRO-RENDER been dropped, the clouds will fade, and the sun is about to shine again, then yes, your absolutely right. @EveryoneReadingThis I get the impression from this thread, that maybe I've upset people who consider their only friends to be the ones they have online. I have to admit, I've joked about that in an "friendship" IM once. I'm sorry, but as I've said before, this forum is nothing more than a commercial venture to me, and any friends I've made are a bonus (meant in a genuine manner). I apologise if I've offended anyone in that sort of capacity. I guess business can make you blind to peoples feelings sometimes. This post is on my last day around here, and genuinely the last post that pumeco will make on R'osity. So, please do as pog requests and keep the thread civil. There's no point in initiating a response from me, because I won't reply. Before I stop posting, there's just one thing I'd like to ask of the whole forum; Tommorows a new day, so don't put the flags up until I've gone will you ;-) Len.

Out of my respect for Pog I don't want to say too much, but the part directed to me... No, I didn't mean that. I meant that Pog (and others) were upset about the way the situation was handled by all those involved and got out of hand and THAT will fade. I'm sure (not to put words in her mouth) she cares more about that than whether or not PR is released.

@Pumeco, "STFU"

People, Pog posted this thread to show how upset she was about the way things happened over the past few days, can we PLEASE not get into a repeat of that.

@pumeco, you stated and i'll quote you here "I don't need to get an approval from you, draculaz, or anyone else in order to validate my product. PRO-RENDER is a RENDERING based product, and I've done my bit by posting "renders" created using it, as THAT was the obvious thing to do in regards to this product" Now i'm not saying in any terms that your product is a "Hoax" but what i'm about to say may seem i am implying that. Couldn't you or anyone do renders in Bryce, Poser, Maya or anyother program that can be used for rendering then state they did it in their own product, say like Pro-Render. Just because someone posts renders in a gallery doesn't show or prove they were done by that persons product. I'll say it again, i'm not stating your product is a hoax because i think you yourself will admit if it was then you would be the one that looks like the fool and no one else :)

When someone is developing a product, thay are under NO obligation to give out that product in order to prove it's validity etc, etc, etc. I don't say you do. I just say that what you showed us is not new, therefore it should not be labeled as new. If you do label it as new while it is not new, then you're telling shomething that is not true, which is exactly what a hoax is. What is bugging me is not your project or even your wish to sell it. My problem is not that it is a render product. And yes your renders are "proof" (to some reasonable degree) of some of the things your product does. What is bugging me though is that you claim this product is doing new things, which is just not true. Me and others tell you that it is not doing new things, we even point you at several people who do the same things. And you do not even care to look at them. You're just so sure of your own superiority that you don't even listen to what people tell you. It's this obnoxious arrogant attitude that I have a problem with. Now I would like to close this topic because it is poinless to continue the debate 'cause neither of us is going to agree with the other anyways.

Oh my dog...here we go again. One thread gets withdrawn by admin. Pogmahone starts a new thread, stating that she almost cancelled her membership because of said thread and other previous threads like it, and then what happens. This thread gets hijacked. Please guys.....Pogmahone stated quite succinctly that she was going to abide by the words of our new coordinator Zhann, and drop the subject and go back to our normal fun-loving selves. So why do some people want to turn this thread into a repeat of the thread that got removed by the PTB? So come on now...grow up and leave it out!

like I said chohole :) I would like to close the topic too ;)

I would like to say sorry to pogmehone for hijacking her thread. I can see why she got/gets upset at things that are said in threads like this one. Some things are said in the heat of the moment and before long it gets turned into a full scale debate on who or what is right or wrong.

pogmahone i hope you don't mind this but i do need to ask one question that has been on my mind for sometime and this might be the right time to ask it.
pogmahone this isn't directed at you but you can answer it or anyone can.

Why can't we have debates on this forum that are to do with 3d art work, Bryce or anyother programs that are used in making 3d images. Why does it always have to be fun loving conversations all the time. I don't mind the fun loving that goes on in this forum but it does get stale at times and IMO i think a decent debate that is within the TOS can't/won't hurt the forum at all.

If any of the MODs don't agree with me then lock me up with 50 naked Vickies...i'm sure that will shut me up for sometime...well at least 2 hours until i need some advice on what to do with them :p

Message edited on: 02/06/2005 10:50

you mean you run out of inspiraton of what you can do with 50 naked vicky's in just 2 hours? LOL

CrazyDawg - I'm sure if you started a thread like that you'd have plenty of takers :^) Now pumeco is gone, let's take pity on Zhann who's had a rough ride for the last few days. Thanks for your patience, Zhann END OF THREAD END OF THREAD END OF THREAD END OF THREAD END OF THREAD!!

Pumeco, this is why software development teams select beta testers, then put them under a non-disclosure agreement until it's time to crank up the CD-burners. Granted, you're very excited about your product, and you should be. Being able to write software isn't that easy (of course, I petered out about the time C++ came out...showing my age again..;). Having a passion for what you do is important; it's the impetus to create the best program you can.
However, any software organization will tell you (anyone, in fact) that whatever you do, there's going to be someone, somewhere, who doesn't like or understand it. This is called life. You listen to the criticism, see if it's valid or not, and if so, you change the product to make it even better. Heck, if I had a nickle for each time Bjorn's updated Wings, I'd be able to afford Silo..;) This is a normal process, and it's just part of the territory. You need to grow a thicker skin if you're going to put your baby out there for the world to see..so don't let it get you down.
Drac, well, he's an excitable boy, they all say. I don't understand for the life of me what's gotten under his skin about this, but hey...just let it drop. There are far more important things in life to worry about than this, in the grand scheme of things. When, or if, Pumeco puts out his program, we'll see what it does. Until then, I think we're just punching at shadows. I'm willing to let it drop, I just thought this needed saying.
And stick around Pog, you're a real artist (especially outside the pixel world, I couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler..;), you're a valued member of our community, and we'd miss you something awful.

OK IM going to make cardial mistake NO#1 and not read through all the previous posts in this thread and reply directly to POG. personally I would hate to see a member leave due to the ongoing drama here. I think it would be a great loss. I agree with you about the continued bullying and have seen something similer but not a total breakdown. I cant say I havent participated in the rigamaro and to any I have insulted offended or other wise upset due to my involvment or direct action I apollogize for my indisgresions. having said that i step down of my soap box and wonder of into the woods.

@pumeco, once again: STFU And a report to the moderators is underway, being called a spineless s*&^% in a PM. is not something i take lightly.

lol pumi pm'd you with that? lol, I must've scared him 'cause he hasn't pm'd me yet and I told him worse :P

I am serious about spineless, being called s@#t is one thing, but a spineless s@#t. 30 years ago i almost ended up in a wheelchair because of a spinal injury. I don't take that kind of insults lightly. BTW: I recieved another PM from him, he could off course reported me to the ruling powers... but he decided to walk the other path.

And of course RobertJ, you didn't use the correct procedure to attack did you; Telling me to "Shut The Fuck Up" in a public forum, is hardly the correct way to go about it dude. I couldn't care less about your "wheelchair" comment, I knew nothing about your past, so the fact that you would even bring up such a subject is about as LOW as I've seen ANYONE in this forum go. Like I said in the PM, get the fuck over it, and get a life. @Rayraz Go and play with Bryce or something, I know it's difficult - but TRY to stay out of other peoples arguments.

Showing his true colors, finally. Bai bai.

PS; Yes RobertJ, you ARE what I called you. Your #25 post, was a spinless move - knowing that I'm leaving the forum, and had no intentions of replying with defense. Any yes "Bai bai", your attempts to get me banned will be in vein, as (just in case you missed it) I'm leaving today anyway.

@pogmahone "I've deleted my gallery, and was about to end my membership..." I really don't blame you, please, tell me where the "END MEMBERSHIP TO RENDEROSITY" button is; I'm sick'n'tired of the SEVERELY INCAPABLE moderation around here.

@ RobertJ, Damn... that does make the spineless comment rather harsh... Sorry if my reaction hit any sore spots. @pumeco, stop starting this whole thing up again please... It's not like anyone's gunna convince anyone of anything anymore anyways. About the staying out of other peeps arguments; If you mess with my friends here, you mess with me. -- Ray (Happy Brycing everyone!)

My my, how dramatic. Come on, don't tell that it was me who forced you to quit this crap? To much honor.

@Rayraz "stop starting this whole thing up again please..." -So you're blind as well as stupid?

Well Pog..... before this is entirely closed I will say this.... Firstly I am not sure about the thread which you are referring to yet..... I will find it and read it.
I am in full agreement with you.
You have stated the very reasons that I have little to say here anymore. I am on a back burner and more of a lurker than anything else now.
I have seriously considered pulling out of Renderosity completely because I do not like to see all the hate and discontent threads that happen here.
Everyone that is here at Renderosity is an artist of one sort or another.... Some more accomplished than others and some are just beginners. So I don't understand all the belittling and hate that flies back and forth around this forum.
And yes... words can hurt severly.... I can surely attest to that. I have had some extremely hurtful things said and done to me involving my handicap and it is disgusting to know that there are people out there in the world that care so little about another human being whether you know them or not.
If you have any feelings at all then you must understand that the person you are bashing has feelings as well.

Message edited on: 02/06/2005 15:41

@RoberJ Well, lets face it dude, where better to bestow the honour of "crap" than on a "shit"?

@Swade Really, you shouldn't waste your time even posting in such a thread. Word's of decent folk stand for NOTHING around here.

@ Len....

Yeah I know but I needed to say it.
Hate to see you leaving but I can sure understand why you feel you need to.
What ever you do... I wish you good success in it. 8)

Message edited on: 02/06/2005 15:39

@Swade Thanks mate, that means a lot ;-)

@Rayraz "stop starting this whole thing up again please..." -So you're blind as well as stupid? well, if you really want to know, I've got no glasses (did get my eyes tested but didn't need any) and an IQ of 147...