I have p5 but have never used it because I get the impression that with all the bugs there could be a steep learning curve, and I have not had time to deal with it. But I wanted Shade so I decided to take advantage of the $129 combo on the upgrade offer. I did not complete the order because they asked for a serial number, and I don't know what that means. Could it be sealed inside the P5 disc, that I have not opened? or do they mean something else. I never registered. I wrote CL but got no answer. The whole P6 business looks so confusing in general that I want to understand what I am doing. Also, if I do get inside the ordering system once I figure out what they mean by password, do they give you the choice of a real paper book and discs in a box? -- which is what I would prefer. You would think that all this would be more clear on their website. And anyway I am wondering if all this trouble is even worth it. Perhaps for just a little more I could get a better modeling program, and perhaps P6 will be as buggy and hard to learn as some of the messages here seem to indicate P5 was. I am a bit slow with this stuff, even though I enjoy it a great deal and have loved to play with P4 and Vue 4. So on top of everything else, I am wondering if P6 and Shade are worth not just the $129 but the trouble of ordering and then learning a new poser program. Also, I recall some comments in the forum about CL getting orders wrong and not responding to customer problems with orders etc. Any red flags here or was all that worked out and is everybody happy now?

If you just want Shade LE, it is cheaper to buy that as an Upgrade to P5. The Serial Number is in the Folder that the disk comes in, might as well open it, it is soon the old program! Most Shade LE users that like it upgrade to Standard. In case you are wondering, it is cheaper to buy LE then Upgrade to Standard, than it is to buy Standard as an Upgrade to P5.

After several bug fixes P5 runs well. You might try it now. As to CL not answering their email I have sent them seven emails in the last three weeks most including the serial number (which is on the P5 disk as you guessed) and asking to purchase P6 as an early responder for P5. No answers yet. Katherine if you see this, read your customer service email. PLEASE

I'm happy. I got the P6 Special Edition Upgrade Download with minimal problems. To top things off, I got Shade LE right away. I haven't learned Shade well enough to say if I like it or not. It is not easy to learn. I learned Wings 3D by "playing around." In Shade's case, I have to read the documentation and follow the tutorial. Using P5 is exactly like using P4, except there are new features like the Material, Face, Cloth, Hair, and Setup Rooms and Ray Tracing. Also, you can organize your folders, which is a big plus. I only use the Material Room. I use the P5 Renderer when I need Ray Tracing and the P4 Renderer when I don't. Your serial number is on the inside of your CD jacket.

Should I try to order one more time? I haven't heard back from Katherine this week, but read that CL was working with DR to fix ordering problems this week. All of my attempts to preorder resulted in an invalid serial number error - using a well-worn valid serial number used to crossgrade to MacOS and get Shade Std. ::shurg:: pjbear, if you never registered P5, I doubt they will honor an upgrade. But, since you have a valid serial number - somewhere ;) - they should at least let you do some sort of register/upgrade process. As if that'll be any better than already registered users being unable to even order... Two words: "drop" and "DigitalRiver"

Katherine had the flu and was out for a while; she should be catching up, though. But it was quite a pile of people trying to order and not getting through DigitalRiver's system... a lot to catch up on. I'd suggest IMs rather than emails. She did say that everyone would be taken care of.

After Katherine got back to me, the order went smoothly.

It is too good a deal to pass up. Lighting makes or breaks a scene (just that alone would persuade me) so the new rendering features are a bonus. For someone else, the new figures or OpenGL might be the tipping point, but if they render in another program the lights would be unimportant. They've revealed more new features than I thought there'd be and they haven't listed all the features (6 more days?) I haven't played with Shade yet (ordered boxed software to answer your question on that), but what I've seen created in it is pretty impressive. One thing which is amusing... so far I've seen 3 or 4 different possible box art.

Carolly

Message edited on: 03/05/2005 06:03

It is too good a deal to pass up. Lighting makes or breaks a scene (just that alone would persuade me) so the new rendering features are a bonus. For someone else, the new figures or OpenGL might be the tipping point, but if they render in another program the lights would be unimportant. They've revealed more new features than I thought there'd be and they haven't listed all the features (6 more days?) I haven't played with Shade yet (ordered boxed software to answer your question on that), but what I've seen created in it is pretty impressive. We've seen hardly any sample renders, so it's impossible to say how good the new lighting will be. Even it it works as advertised, it may take absurdly long or cause frequent crashes. What are the specs on the new figures? What do they look like? What little we've seen so far points to more "real" rendering, any improvements to animation? I wish the best to those who've pre-ordered, but at this point I haven't seen anything that makes P6 "too good a deal to pass up." Perhaps with six more days they'll change my mind, but they don't seem to be trying very hard. I also find it a bit insulting that they're asking us to buy it without out telling us more information. The P5 release didn't exactly inspire confidence. Isn't it also odd they haven't given us a single sample render for a complex scene? If they'd take a couple of their "new characters," a few props, use image-based lighting and a few other new features, and give us a sample render with times and the specs of the machine it was done on they might be able to convince a few more folks.

too good a deal to pass up.... The PRICE :) Think about it...they had the early adopter deal..$89 which includes the queen thing, whatever that was...plus Shade LE. or because of the DR mess...they had the regular pre-order upgrade at $109 .. and if you were one of the people that had the $50 off for a purchase over $100 deal, which I was, the price is $59 ... and that is a deal to good to pass up. Even if the program is a mess out of the box, you're still into it cheap ... put it away until the patches come out. When I ordered mine, which, by the way, was one of the hardest things I've had to do mentally in a long time because after P5, the way it was when released, I swore on a stack of Poser 1, 2, 3, and 4 boxes that I would NEVER buy another thing from CL in my life, and would NEVER buy a product new out of the chute ... but I did...and just for the pricing... I already had Shade LE, so I tacked on Shade Standard to the P6 early adopter deal, and got both for $124 after my $50 coupon deal...now that's a decent price.

I think there will always be some that will complain at any price. 8-) Here's the thing ... there are a whole lot of programs I can think of that weren't perfect on initial release. In fact, I can't think of ANY software program that I've purchased that didn't have at least one "service pack" or "update" or "patch." So why does everyone come down so hard on Curious Labs? To me, it is worth the gamble to save some money. Even if there are bugs, they will be worked out in time. And as Dave-So said, set the box aside until you hear that it works OK. I've spent a lot more than $89 or even $129 on programs that I hardly ever use. But I have them in case I need them once in a while.

I was an early adopter for P5. Temptation this time is to give them a year to work all the bugs out and then buy it off Amazon if the feedback I see for it is good. Nothing I've seen so far makes me think the "early adopter" savings are worth the hassle.

I wonder if Katherine is out again? I've been waiting for a reply from her for over a week now.

What hassle? What would the hassle be to buy it at the low price and set it aside until the feedback is good? It costs you less that way. Even if you wait to buy it at a higher price, you'll still have to download the same updates as the early purchasers. There are some people who will upgrade regardless. Call them "early adopters", "beta testers", or just call them what they are ... faithful customers. Those are the people that will order the Poser upgrade simply because they like the program and are willing to ride out the storm in the early release. In that case, the added bonus of getting a special price shows that CL appreciates those faithful customers. What is wrong with that? For those who choose to wait, or who are speculative about what P6 has to offer, it is their perogative to do so. And their reasons for waiting may very well be valid. But it isn't fair to say "I want to wait to see what it has, but then I won't get that special price." Dollar for dollar, Poser gives a heck of a lot of bang for the buck. Not only does it give access to reasonably-priced content that works, for the most part, "right out of the box", but it also has a lot of features that you'll find in higher end programs where you have to create the content yourself. I have never gotten as much enjoyment out of ANY other program ... and if it weren't for Poser I wouldn't be improving my skills in other areas of 3D graphics. Poser inspired me to improve my modeling, texturing, and UV mapping techniques. My next goal is to FINALLY learn all I can about animation (which I've been neglecting so far.) To me, it's worth $89 or $129 just to continue that enjoyment. Given the situations that Poser has been through since Poser 4, I am just glad that it is still here for us. And I will show that support by being an "early adopter."

What would the hassle be to buy it at the low price and set it aside until the feedback is good? If you have that much self-discipline, you're a better person than I am. Leaving unopened software on my shelf would be about as hard as walking past a tray of freshly baked cookies without taking one. I'm just not that strong. :) At this point, P5 is a functional reasonably stable product, and it is fun to use. I can keep having fun without spending any money at all. And they might convince me to buy the beta version, they just haven't yet.

If you have that much self-discipline, you're a better person than I am. Leaving unopened software on my shelf would be about as hard as walking past a tray of freshly baked cookies without taking one. I'm just not that strong. :) I wouldn't be strong at either, either! ;-)

With the P6 release, I will not allow myself to get too hyped up. Prior to P5 launch, everyone was all worked up with all the great new features and stuff...just a lot of changes going into P5. This time around, I'm not going to be expecting anything. If it works, great...if it doesn't, I'll shelve it and go on using P5, which now works fairly well overall.

For me the irritation involves a lot of mixed feelings. There are my personal problems with the uncertainty and not being able to plan my time, which is limited. Like, will my order go through easily or will there be days of trying to straighten things out if I don't do something EXACTLY right? etc. But also I have a lot of "compassionate" frustration FOR Curious Labs. I think Poser is a great product, but it does not get great support. For Poser 4 at least (which is what I use, because I have not opened 5) I think that the manual is not very good, and I don't know where I would be without the Renderosity Forum. Also, I think they could make things more clear over at their home webpage. Not all of us are as at ease with computers and the internet as others, and maybe that is my problem. But this special offer is an example. I had to do a lot of running around to figure out what I would be buying and I still am largely in the dark!! Then there is the unclarity about the serial number and whether I would get the special deal if I were to go ahead and order but have not registered. Or can I still register my P5 after such a long time holding it, and then get the special deal a few hours later? All this could have been made clear on their webpage. I would also like to see Curious Labs do well. So I am frustrated FOR people with a good product in terms of engineering who do not also do as well in dealing with customers. I don't want to seem to be overly critical, I don't know what their budget is etc. I can't stand in their shoes. They have their problems, I have mine. I guess where I stand, after reading the comments, is that the serial number they want is inside the disc package. Now the question is can I just go ahead and register it and still get the special deal? What do I have to lose by trying? Only getting misbilled or something like that and having to spend time trying to straighten it out. Plus, I get the impression that orders are not going through right now anyway. Right? So is this the right time to try to register my P5 or what? If my registration on P5 does not go through would P6 upgrade even work for me? I.e. is registration of P5 necessary to use the upgrade? Since it is mostly Shade that I am after right now in the near future, I would go ahead and order and put aside P6 until the bugs have been worked out if I thought the order would go right through. Then hope that P6 is worth the trouble to learn.

pjbear,

Go ahead and take the plunge! I hate buying stuff on line, don't ask me why, just one of those things that is simply not logical. I was able to place my order with NO problems (there have probably been thousands of pre orders that went smoothly, you just hear about the bad experiences). You might not even need to register P5, it depends on how their data base and Serial validation process is structured. It may only compare your serial# to a list a valid serials, regardless of registration status. You should be eligable for the upgrade even if you register now. You can try the purchase without registering first. If it requires a "registered" serial # you simply won't be able to complete the purchase, you won't get charged anything for trying, you need the valid serial # prior the completeing the transaction. If you need to register first, go register at CL's web site, wait a while (a couple of hours), then try your purchase again. Since it is the weekend, you may have to wait until Monday for registration to complete (but I doubt it, it should be automated).

You might as well go all out and install P5 and play with it too (not trying to be sarcastic, just urging you to be adventerous). If you can use P4, you can use P5. There are some new things that you can either ingnore, or "enjoy" learning to use (Ahhh, nothing like a good, intense, frustration headache). Unfortunately, no matter what program your talking about, you typically hear more complaints than compliments when a new upgrade comes out. P5 is no different. I use P5 most of the time now, and seldom go back to P4PP.

Honestly, P5 gives you a lot of features for the price. P5 was the first 3D app to include dynamic cloth with the base package (under $300), with other apps dynamic cloth would cost a minimum of an additional $200 more (if it was even avalable). I too have read numerous posts about problems with P5, but I look at what CL has done with P5 as a very good value for the price. You really are getting a lot for your money with the P6 upgrade, the render engine alone is worth it, plus Shade 7LE, it's a "can't pass it up" price. True, we haven't seen anything other than one simple promo image as an example of what the new render engine can do. But look at the render engine in Shade, which is the product of CL's new parent company. I'm confident that the new render engine will be an excellent product, as eFrontier has a reputation to uphold (a bad Poser6 upgrade could result in a very negative image in Japan, and the world, which would translate into large losses in potential revenue).

I can understand people being upset when software doesn't work the way it should, I get upset myself (my family knows when to stay clear). But the target customer (and price range) for Poser isn't the same as Maya or 3DS Max, so we as users can't expect an equivalent product. Yes, bug free software(or as I like to call it, "undocumented feature" free) would be nice to have. But no matter how much the software costs, in my experience bug free just does't happen, and I've been working with computers for over 20 years.

I work with software that costs over $20,000 dollars on a daily basis, and it has bugs. I've worked with software that cost over $200,000, and it had bugs too. Of course with the higher priced software, you get premium tech support which will jump on the problems and typically have a fix within 24 hours (at a premium cost - in addition to the purchase price). But like everything else in life, you get what you pay for. I also work with software that cost almost $10,000 dollars (per user license), and $3,500 dollars for yearly software support (for primary license). But if you aren't a company with several hundred thousand dollars invested in this particular companies products, you may get the software bugs fixed with the next patch (one every 3-6 months) or you may not (depends on how many "seats" the bug has been reported as effecting).

Will P6 have bugs? Yes! It's is impossible to beta test a product like P6 under the wide variety of hardware combinations it will be installed on, and test every possible senario of what a user might try to do with the software. Will it be usable? I got the upgrade, so obviously I'm betting it will be (again, any upgrade with any software there is always a question of reliability, and apprehension wondering if they broke something that was on the older version). Will it crash alot? I hope not, but only time will tell. Will it be fast, or sloooowwww? Again, only time will tell.

Why did I get the upgrade with so many unknowns? #1 reason was a price that I couldn't pass on for what CL was offering (I got the $109.00 limited offer). #2 reason was the enhancements - the new render engine. Open GL, and SSS. #3 reason was curiosity about the SE content, could be awsome or junk, but I wanted to find out for myself. #4 reason was eFrontiers reputation in Japan, the appearant quality of the flagship product - Shade, and the positive steps that CL has made since they were acquired by eFrontier. #5 reason was the inclusion of Shade LE.

Sorry for the long message. It's just my 2 cents worth (sometimes I just say way too much). I hope something I said helps you to make a decision one way or another. It's not unusual to be apprehensive about upgrading, and having to deal with changes in software. I do it all the time, and still HATE it (but I typically like the improvements too). Just keep in mind, that you can always fire up P4 and make a nice render if your frustration level gets too high, then go back to P6 (or P5) when your mood improves. Don't expect to learn everything at once, but do set time aside on a very regular basis to learn the new software, and before you know it you will want to use the new software all the time.

Good luck with your decision.

DustRider, that was a wonderful example of the voice of reason. (bow) Thank you for such a well-thought-out response!

I'll only comment on the first paragraph of DustRider's message. Yes, there have been thousands of preorders that went smoothly. But you cannot justify the hundreds that didn't by dismissal. If there were only a 'couple', I would have been taken care of weeks ago. By the length of time it has taken (still waiting), I submit that there are hundreds of people unable to preorder. If they were comparing to a list of valid serials (registered or not), then nobody would have difficulties in using theirs to order. That would mean that CL has a corrupted serial number database - not a good thing ever - or DR is a clueless bunch of idiots who don't know how to access a database (that's starting to sound like a possibility). I think that they have a registered user database which is screwed up.

I for one am still waiting for my promised fix so I can Pre order. "Will get your fix next week." I've been waiting for over a month. Emails not answered, same with the IM's. I missed all the sales because of the BS promise. I hope the software is better than their word is, for your sake, not mine because CL won't let me buy.

I think I have an acedemic version of poser4 what will this do to the upgrade to poser 6 offer or should I just do the p5 now with p6 later download offer?

glennjan,

I'm not sure about CL's policy regarding acedemic versions, but typically acedemic versions don't come with upgrade options (this is not universal, some companies are very progressive in this area and offer upgrades, but they are in the minority). If there is no direct link to acedemic upgrades on the web site, chances are pretty good that they don't have an upgrade policy. You could try contacting CL's customer support, they may be able to enlighten you on the subject.

Buying P5 now with the P6 download offer might be the simplest solution. Even if there is an upgrade option, you probably wouldn't save much over the P5 purchase with P6 upgrade download. If you don't mind doing some "leg work" to try to save a few bucks (probably around $20-30 at the most), then I'd check with CL about their upgrade policy. If you prefer to keep it simple, then getting P5 with the P6 upgrade download is the way to go.

A plus to going with the P5 purchase is you would have a copy of P5 in addition to P6, which would give you a little added flexibility if P6 tuns out to have some real issues (not quite ready for prime time), or if P6 is a big resource/CPU hog.

Yeah I wasnt really sweating the upgrade issue not sure if I have a academic version but heres something should I just go the download route or buy pre made cd frome curious labs I have downloaded and burnt my own in the past for other software

Given the stated size, on a DSL line that is still a half-hour to an hour. If you've gone the download route before, you probably have a fast line. If you don't have a fast line, you probably shouldn't even consider the downloaded version (uppety ISPs and timeouts and dropped packets all contribute to problems the longer the downloading goes on). Even with DSL and a good line, I pre-ordered the boxed version so that I'll have a good clean backup and a manual that I can put sticky notes all over. If you order the downloaded version, you can download Shade7 almost immediately, so you could be playing with it if you are the impatient sort. ;) Carolly

Still can't order. Does this mean a free upgrade? ;0) I like the boxed version for the same reasons - a disk, a hardcopy manual, hardcopy serial, and all of the goodies that may require more downloads if available.

Robert, Why don't you IM Katherine with your screen name and your real name and see if she can track down the order problem. Your serial number ought to be valid, and the FAQ explained how to enter it, so the snag may be elsewhere in the system. Carolly

Carolly, I IM'd Katherine twice almost three weeks ago (one week she spent ill, so that is forgiven) with full information as specified in the CL thread. My serial number was entered correctly each of the several dozen attempts and it still tosses the same error, even yesterday when I tried one more time. It's being read directly off of the Poser 5 CD folder and it matches the information in Poser 5 and in my serial number database, so it is must be a snag in their system. I was hoping for some sort of email/IM/Rendo thread notification last week, but nothing yet. Maybe I'll IM with full information again (including SN) and see if something happens...

I'm usually pretty patient (I HATE to nag), but sometimes things just get buried and if I don't remind especially-busy people nothing happens. I'm going to go off and take my own advice and nag someone. ;)

i usually have about a 3 day max wait fror email response or I'm pretty much going nuts by then... then I write another... the bad thing with CL... WHERE"S THE PHONE NUMBER FOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT ???????

...in the phone book. Really! You can also find it in the manual, under Appendix A, Technical Support: 831-462-8902 business hours, Pacific time.

$$$$$$

I agree Dave-So. That's a long-distance call, even for me in CO, USA. :)

I, for one, am not a 'people person' and despise (I'd use a stronger word, but won't) telephones. Person-person is okay, email/IM/Chat is okay. But telephones are evil, especially when you call a company and need to go through a series of automated menus and then wait for 10, 15, 30 minutes for a "customer representative" to not be busy and get down to business. I'm not saying it's always horrible. Maxon USA has excellent sales and technical support over the phone - Rafi is the greatest! MicroCenter and many others can read my middle finger. ;)

Well, Katherine has responded and is working it out. I don't understand the backlash from others though. I'd say that I've been rather patient and polite considering the situation. I'm not complaining much about CL or Poser 6, just the ordering mess. The honus is on them to get that right, not me. Wakarimasu ka?

Message edited on: 03/08/2005 18:43