As a reference, Bowie's second Tin Machine cover artwork was censored for showing genitalia, even though it was based on a classical sculpture. Prudery is everywhere; I don't blame RO for this, 'tis a sign o' the times.

Post #1 "These changes are a result of a combination of several factors: feedback from the community, consistency between the marketplace and the community and the legal liability surrounding child nudity and pornography." Nope. Sorry. I don't buy that at all. Especially the first two reasons. I think jonbg1 (post #146) got it spot on. Personally, I think there's a marketing opportunity for clothes modellers here. Just make sure the virtual cloth is thick, sturdy and def not figure-hugging.

sigh (ok.. bookmark then)

Xeno has a point, you know that whole freedom of speech/expression thing causes a lot of fights around here also. Lets just shut down the forums all together, then we have no fights be they about how to properly make SSS and translucent ears or about policy changes. If no one can talk then we'll all get along so much more peacefully.

"Xeno has a point, you know that whole freedom of speech/expression thing causes a lot of fights around here also. Lets just shut down the forums all together, then we have no fights be they about how to properly make SSS and translucent ears or about policy changes. If no one can talk then we'll all get along so much more peacefully. " And while we're at it lets shut down the galleries too, so much less to bitch about when there is no art work to cause strife. Where's the Pink Pony when you need it? Oh thats right, he was nekid too.

*Xeno has a point,

you know that whole freedom of speech/expression thing causes a lot of fights around here also. Lets just shut down the forums all together, then we have no fights be they about how to properly make SSS and translucent ears or about policy changes. If no one can talk then we'll all get along so much more peacefully.*

Cause = Effect

If you can't see it, then I can't show it to you.

shrug

Do/say what you like. Within the TOS, of course.

Those horrible, awful rules again........

"Free Speech" should always be distinguished from "Free Abuse".

But some can't tell the difference.

"you know that whole freedom of speech/expression thing causes a lot of fights around here also. Lets just shut down the forums all together, then we have no fights be they about how to properly make SSS and translucent ears or about policy changes. If no one can talk then we'll all get along so much more peacefully." thats true moment forums are gone, i predict 90% minimum of the buyers will leave, then 95% of the merchants, then rest of buyers, then rest of merchants no more ranting, no more fighting, problem solved many of the artists will leave or already are, due to the new TOS, and i predict many many more if it stays

quote plmcelligott: "I'm sorry, but I have a hard time getting too upset over a "perv" getting his jollies from a computer generated image of a person who doesn't really exist, regardless of the context. There is an easily discerned distinction between pedophiles stalking real children in a public place and someone getting over-stimulated by a fake image on the internet." I'm sorry that you can't see that they're the same thing. While I prefer to have no real opinion of this debate (tho I'd probably lean toward a case-by-case basis as opposed to a blanket ruling), your statement that a perv getting jollies off digital art kiddies instead of real ones isn't the same thing is disturbing. Full grown adults SHOULD NOT be stimulated by children, fake or otherwise. There'd have to be something inherently wrong with that person. You should be aware of the difference and wonder if a man who gets stimulated watching a small child in a playground or staring at digital art on the internet should spend quality time with your daughter or son. kmw

Would boys wearing only overalls count? They're sorta bare chested. Just asking no reason what so ever. ""Free Speech" should always be distinguished from "Free Abuse". But some can't tell the difference. " Umm whose the one that can't tell the difference?

Message edited on: 03/21/2005 16:00

many of the artists will leave or already are, due to the new TOS, and i predict many many more if it stays I love it. I wish that I had a nickel for every time that I've heard someone make this dire prediction. Hasn't happened yet. Renderosity is bigger than ever. Too bad, eh? :)

Umm whose the one that can't tell the difference? You tell me. ;-)

"Renderosity is bigger than ever. Too bad, eh?" shame the offical word on the menmbership numbers is an average of 4 accounts to each active user... rather shrinks it don't it? ;)

Well when you can show me that allowing my son to play in the pool with out a shirt in public is abuse, then I'll freely admit that I am wrong. Isn't that the point of this whole 'debate' Personally I think all they need to do is make a gender deferental (sp sorry) and this whole thing would magically go away.

wow. dam, I always seem to miss thegood threads and, since I really don;t do children, it won't matter to me unless Aiko falls under that category???? Hope not!!!

I think they already deturmined that she didn't but I could be mistaken.

Well when you can show me that allowing my son to play in the pool with out a shirt in public is abuse, then I'll freely admit that I am wrong.

Eh......????

Well, when you can show me the true value of pi, then I'll freely admit that I understand what relevance your point has.

Personally I think all they need to do is make a gender deferental (sp sorry) and this whole thing would magically go away

While I agree that you (and others) have a point here -- this issue will never "magically go away" so long as the site owners allow any exceptions.

Too bad. If only the "defenders of freedom" were capable of realizing just how counter-productive their efforts have been.

Oh, well.....might as well attempt to explain advanced quantum physics to a group of bright 1st graders.

I predict the next hot item will be the Male Training Bra! ;-p

shame the offical word on the menmbership numbers is an average of 4 accounts to each active user... rather shrinks it don't it? ;) Trust me......they ain't hurtin'.

you know what I'm not getting in a flame war with you, thats obviously what you want. appearently the mods want to hear what we have to say else they would of just locked the topic after the first post, and I do suspect that tomorrow when I get up in the morning alot of this will be sorted out, and there most likely will be a amendment to the new tos. (or at least I hope so)

"Hasn't happened yet. Renderosity is bigger than ever. Too bad, eh?" many friends of mine have already taken down their art and have chosen to quit buying from here, and arent alone none of their art had anything remotely "wrong" according to new TOS, but have taken down anyways and moved on "Full grown adults SHOULD NOT be stimulated by children, fake or otherwise. There'd have to be something inherently wrong with that person." by saying that, you also would stand against lesbians/gays people live and feel how they want, dont judge what is or isnt "wrong", if the only thing in life is boy+girl in your mind, then you are at fault while they shouldnt stalk children, or abuse them, or someone committing rape on an 18 year old girl, those are different lines to cross im straight, and i realize people come in all forms and therefor i dont judge them for the way they "feel" im neither with nor against adults who like children they like what they like, and cant help it "feeling" and "doing" are different however

by saying that, you also would stand against lesbians/gays people live and feel how they want, dont judge what is or isnt "wrong", if the only thing in life is boy+girl in your mind, then you are at fault Bullsh*t comparison. Sorry, that just is.

you know what I'm not getting in a flame war with you, thats obviously what you want.

Not me.

But I will say what I think. It's that "free speech" thing in operation.

No kids involved, either.

and I do suspect that tomorrow when I get up in the morning alot of this will be sorted out, and there most likely will be a amendment to the new tos. (or at least I hope so

I hope that you're right.

At least about the "sorted out" part.

btw i never did like those old masters any way
http://www.pictureblinds.co.uk/painters/images/rubens.jpg
http://www.oilpainting.net.cn/ccp5/media/images/category/Botticelli6.jpg
http://www.oilpainting.net.cn/ccp5/media/images/product_detail/KLIM02.JPG
to name and shame but a few
BAN THEM ALL
sorry rendo, but you have gone to far.
you say "We feel this is a positive move for the entire community"
your right YOU feel, you didnt ask me , or did i miss the memo, again
and then theres that line "educating those artists"
mmm that smells big time.

as for what you call child porn
i will be sending a letter to the tv companys so stop showing child porn in there adds,
there was a very shocking one only this dinner time, for a baby cream i belive. so shocking i cannot
repeat what it showed

"When they came for the gypsies, I did not speak, for I am
not a gypsy. When they came for the Jews, I did not speak,
because I wasn't a Jew. When they came for the Catholics, I
did not speak, for I am not a Catholic. And when they came
for me, there was no one left to speak."
well put Jack

Please, guys, keep this civil. We understand that you have a need to vent about this, which is why we kept this thread open. No where in our TOS are there any references to child porn. Only the statement that models depicted to be under the age of 18 must be clothed. Thank you, MorriganShadow Poser Coordinator

"Too bad. If only the "defenders of freedom" were capable of realizing just how counter-productive their efforts have been." Of course, we should all just do as you would and go buy something right? Lets all just shut up now, we are bothering Xeno. Happy Happy Joy Joy. Actually, you're assumption that defending freedom here at Rosity is counter-productive is false. It has no effect at all. Rosity Admin will do as it always has, make a horrible decision, and stand firm regardless of the members feelings. To say that certain actions are counter productive is based on the false assumption that Admin listens at all. They don't. And as long as you've been around here you should know that. The new TOS will be enforced as the old one was, unfairly, unevenly, and unjustly. Whats new about that?

quote anxcon": "by saying that, you also would stand against lesbians/gays people live and feel how they want, dont judge what is or isnt "wrong", if the only thing in life is boy+girl in your mind, then you are at fault" Are you crazy?!? You insult the entire gay community by implying what they do is akin to the rights of pediophiles. (And it's actually thinking like this that maintains a bias against them throughout this deluded country of mine.) I have a 14 year old daughter and I don't want any grown man admiring her sexually. It is WRONG! quote anxcon: "im straight, and i realize people come in all forms and therefor i dont judge them for the way they "feel" " Riiight. And you obviously don't have children. But you're entitled to your opinion of course. As wrong as it may be. kmw

*"Full grown adults SHOULD NOT be stimulated by children, fake or otherwise. There'd have to be something inherently wrong with that person."

by saying that, you also would stand against lesbians/gays
people live and feel how they want, dont judge what is
or isnt "wrong", if the only thing in life is boy+girl
in your mind, then you are at fault

while they shouldnt stalk children, or abuse them, or
someone committing rape on an 18 year old girl, those
are different lines to cross

im straight, and i realize people come in all forms
and therefor i dont judge them for the way they "feel"
im neither with nor against adults who like children
they like what they like, and cant help it
"feeling" and "doing" are different however*

Dude.....you are doing a lot to torpedo your own cause here.

With allies like you, the pro-nudity group doesn't need any debate opponents.

isn't it ironic that Spiritbro77's post comes right after MorriganShadow's. I wouldn't flame the mods and admins here, I'm sure this came from higher up, and they were just handed the juicey steak and fed to the wolves. MorriganShadow any news on the front that some of the male concerns will or wont be addressed. It'd be nice to know either way.

Of course, we should all just do as you would and go buy something right?

Hey! That's a great idea!

Actually, you're assumption that defending freedom here at Rosity is counter-productive is false.

We'll just have to disagree on this one.

I contend that if certain parties had simply been willing to leave well enough alone, then this change to the TOS wouldn't have happened.

"Riiight. And you obviously don't have children. But you're entitled to your opinion of course. As wrong as it may be." accually 3 kids i dont want anyone looking at them either and as i said, stalking, and abuse are in another line looking at them and photographing them is stalking

As soon as I know, you'll know. I promise. MorriganShadow Poser Coordinator

"With allies like you, the pro-nudity group doesn't need any debate opponets" Man it's not about being pro-nudity. It's about being pro-art. Da Vinci would be SOL with the new TOS. Rubens,Botticelli,etc, etc. All banned under the new TOS.

MorriganShadow, thanks. And thanks again for just being around to show that we aren't being ignored. I'm probably going to leave this thread until tomorrow since Standard Business Hours are over we'll probably not get an answer from the 'business' end of things until morning. I suggest everyone take a deep breath go relax infront of the TV a bit and hope the powers that be make the right choices in the morning. Thats what I'm going to do (it's StarGate monday.)

Man it's not about being pro-nudity.

Heh......heh.....heh.....

:)

I wondered how long it would be before someone picked up on that -- and objected to the label.

;-)

You're quick, Spiritbro. I'll grant you that.

Thixen said "MorriganShadow any news on the front that some of the male concerns will or wont be addressed. It'd be nice to know either way." I'll second that question. I think there have been some legitimate points raised that could be easily taken care of with some slight modifications to the TOS. Topless boys in swimsuits and/or naked babies etc really shouldn't be a big deal it seems. So if somebody (and I realize somebody might be trying to get somebody else to actually do this while we keep going here. lol) could actually inform us that our views have been heard, will or won't be considered, changes might or might not be forthcoming, I think that would go a long way to settling things down. Maybe nothing gets changed...seems silly, but I can see how that could happen. At least we'd know for sure that we'd been heard/considered. :) I'm sure this hasn't been/isn't fun for the mods...thanks for putting up with it all.

"I have a 14 year old daughter and I don't want any grown man admiring her sexually. It is WRONG!" So when your daughter reaches 16 or 17, you'll not be allowing her to date anyone over the age of 18, right?

To the admins at Renderosity: I too must add my voice to the growing dissent. Please reconsider your stance on child nudity as to define it as pornography. As was the custom of this country once: One is innocent until proven guilty.

As a female, I find it more offensive to see a naked topless chick in the galleries than I am of a boy without his shirt on. But, that's just me. As long as my Aiko images are ok lol.

Hi, guys First, I want to thank you guys for keeping it civil in here. I know you're frustrated. Just keep in mind, this change of TOS took a while to come about, so redefining and/or changing it again may take more than a few hours. We're doing what we can, and I promise that the second I know anything either way regaring "chest nudity" on young male figures, I'll definitely let you know. Thanks again, guys! MorriganShadow Poser Coord.

ok there's 3 groups involved here... there's the Pro nudity / leave it alone there's the Renderosity is right brigade hwo many are in the "Fine Art has had these images for hundreds of years and no one calls them kiddie porn or looks at it as being wrong" group? thats the group I'm in. argue all you want about the rights and wrongs of certain images.. but if you ban certain area's of creativity such as the old masters have you belittle what this site is supposed to be about. agreed if you have a naked child in a "provocative" postion remove it. but if you have a cherub in the style of the old masters and you ban that or works that make up the Sistine Chapel, or works by Rembrant, Di Vinci and many other respected artists, then sorry. you have no right to call yourselves artists and have no right to run a site dedicated in anyway to artwork. since that image (my example) is classifed as artwork by institutions far older and greater than a website that has only been in existance around 10 years. they teach us the basics of the craft we endevour to show here.

Attached Link: http://rendervisions.com/

Ohh sorry I know I said I was leaving, but I just thought of this. (I'm asking cause I'm really not sure about this) How does all this apply to the luke and laura body suits/second skins. The reason I ask cause I was thinking of doing a teen titan homage with them and the suits. (as long as it doesnt break anything about copywrited characters either)

looking at them and photographing them is stalking

As I mentioned w-a-ayyy back in this thread, it's sad that we've lost our innocence.

Any (male) adult looking at children playing on a playground, or running around on a beach -- is automatically regarded as a suspect.

Looking at them?

And doing it with a CAMERA.......? Horrors.

I admit that we've come a long way, baby. I wouldn't allow children to run loose in today's world, either.

It's just a real tragedy that the innocence is gone.

As I suggested earlier: lock the kids away from public view. It's the only sure fix.

bodysuits are clothing. Second skins are clothing painted onto the texture of the model. Morrigan Poser Coord

Well just to play it safe, I'm gonna put bras on any young men/fairies/angels/aliens/wizards I might decide to render. Think I'm joking? Take a gander at what I did to S***e when the "fan art violates TOS" kerfluffle happened a few months back. http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=822901&Start=1&Artist=Byrdie&ByArtist=Yes WARNING: THIS IMAGE DEPICTS A BARE-CHESTED ADULT HUMANOID MALE!

ok so they count in the clothed department kewl thanks, now to reread the full TOS about that copywrite thing.

Ahh this is just Byrdies way of getting us to look at the pic ;)

just sorry I didn't think of it first ohh on the keeping it civil thing. hits Byrdie with a pie and runs Whaaaaa!!

Message edited on: 03/21/2005 17:07

" Well just to play it safe, I'm gonna put bras on any young men/fairies/angels/aliens/wizards I might decide to render." Ah but then they will envoke the little known "Cross dressing and Underage Persons" clause of the TOS...:)

I contend that if certain parties had simply been willing to leave well enough alone, then this change to the TOS wouldn't have happened. I'm thinking you may very well be right on this...

You'll all hate me for saying this, but, I think fairies should be removed from the uploading category then? Why not make it easier on the adims/mods by just removing the categories that are offensive? What if you post an image you aren't sure of and get banned? Or, just make a no children rule and have done with it? You got adult porn up in here anyway so, it's very confusing to know what is and what isn't allowed for those that don't come to the forum or even rea the TOS. Personally, mixing adut content and children content doesn't look right to me. Just a thought...