Attached Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7357164/

A conservative revolutionary It is for sure a man who will go into the history-books and will remembered for a very long time to come.

Even I disagree with many theological concepts, he was a great human person and a great leader, something that is almost impossible to find today. He has lived and has died with dignity, he has all my respects!

I respect the fact that he believed deeply and sincerely, and that he lived (and died) with great courage. I also could not agree with him on all topics, but I never doubted his faith. He is at peace now.

Enlightened????? Only if you are a conservative male who blindly accepts authority for authority's sake and who enjoys his place in the heirarchy of obedience! He thought that feminist females were the next lowest thing to destructive demons (accused us of tearing families apart), and caused untold hardship and cruelty to gays, overburdened poor families who really didn't want more children (which puts additional pressure on this global ecosystem), and fulminated against anybody of intelligence raising a questioning or dissenting voice. The Vatican's classes in Satanism are a fascinating touch... witch-burning can't be far off once they get their criteria sorted again. There is no difference between him and Sistani and Khomenei and anybody else who uses power to promote extreme religious doctrine at the expense of individual or civil rights. Just because he was rich and powerful doesn't make him worthy of respect. I give my respect to people who have earned it. Carolly

No, I'm not a conservative, i'm kind of an "old hippie",(in fact I'm an old Rajneeshee)...

Once in a while, in my belief, a person comes along who has attained the ultimate state of human awareness. Such a person is what is called a "Living Buddha". I believe that the Pope may have been such a person. Unfortunately, he did't do all that he could have because evan the Pope is bound by rules and traditions ( a pope may be deposed if he soesn't act in the Church's best interest,) and he could do much more where he was (as the most influental religious leader in the world) than he could do as a defrocked ex-pope...
(editied to get rid of a couple typos)

Message edited on: 04/02/2005 15:35

Probably the greatest pope ever. There's no way they can get a new one who's even a fraction of what this one was.

hauksdottir - "A conservative male who blindly accepts authority for autority's sake and who enjoys his place in the heirarchy of obedience."

I don't think you understand the nature of authority. It consists of a leader and followers. The followers of the Pope are not being forced, you don't get fined everytime you sin. Do you always agree with secular laws? No but you have to follow them nonetheless. The difference is that nobody's forcing you to be a Catholic or to follow the Pope. If you don't agree, stay out of the group. It's that simple. My question to you is when has this Pope ever force you to do anything?

I don't know where you get your information on the next paragraph. I don't know what youv'e been smoking either. I agree previous Popes have done some crazy stuff, but John Paul 2? What tabloid have you been reading?

The difference between Sistani and Khomenei from the Pope? Your'e kidding right? Probably 1, or less, out of 50 people in this planet know or care who Khomenei and Sistani are. I think you are confused as hell.

Finally, who exactly would you say has earned your respect? Your own father? I DIDN'T THINK SO. Unfortunately most people don't agree with you. Time to step back and look around. Respect? I mean gosh, the guy just died and already your'e jumping in trying to score off of it. Really respectable...

Message edited on: 04/02/2005 20:03

It wasn't my intention for this thread to be used to argue the Pope's merits or lack thereof, but merely to mark the passing of a man for whom I had great respect.

Civil isn't something Religious threads were made for. You are always gonnna have the 'left' slamming the 'right' for their beliefs. I can see this thread won't last long. May the Pope Rest In Peace.

This Pope has been the first to ever visit the Muslim and Hebrew religious places and authorities. He made big steps for the peace and understanding between different religions and cultures. This is why he is so important. And it is also why so many people loved him (like me), and someone also hated him, because they dont' want things to change like he did. He did opposite the Nazis when young, helped the destruction of communism when Pope, and recently he has condamned the Gulf wars in the name of peace. He was no left or right, he did not follow any country leader, he only followed the Gospel and the words of Christ. He was one of the greatest men of the last century and one that opened the new millennium with great hopes for the men of good will. He was especially beloved by the young people, whom he was able to listen to and understand, like no other Pope before. He will be remembered forever. Orio.

My wife and I are both baptized Catholics. She is still a believer in that faith and I'm an agnostic. So the death of Pope John Paul II has had the strange effect on me of not quite knowing how I feel about it - or him for that matter.

In an increasingly secular world Christianity seems to be increasingly marginalized and Catholicism seems to be marginalized even further within the world of Christianity
because of the greater influence of Protestantism. So it's hard to put into perspective the full scope of this loss.

For my wife and for many Christians there is the sense of loss of a great spiritual leader. I also sense the loss of a significant historical figure.

That Pope John Paul II was so beloved by so many people is beyond dispute but because of his conservative policies he was not beyond controversy. In truth, it's hard to imagine how it could be different - can Catholicism move away from it's core beliefs and remain Catholicism?

As is often the case, illumination sometimes comes from the conjunction of several events that reinforce a common theme that runs through both. Such I believe is the influence that the Terry Shivo case had on me. For me (and for many), her doctor's testimony that she was suffering from the permanent loss of all neocortal functions was enough to convince me that removing her feeding tube was the right decision. I couldn't understand why so many were fighting so loudly and vociferously to preserve her 'right' to remain in a persistent vegetative state.

But after really listening to those who were in opposition to letting her die I found that I couldn't blame them for their opinion or even feel that they were wrong. They are opposed to what they feel is the 'culture of death' that they also feel is so pervasive in our society today.

Whether they are right or wrong is a matter for dispute but it occurs to me that there will never be a system of beliefs or ethics that is so ironclad that it will forever be completely full proof in every decision like this that needs to be made. All we can hope for is a 'spirit of humanity' that forms the 'climate' from which we must evaluate and make such decisions and hope that we are doing the right thing. Contrast that to the 'Spirit of Inhumanity' that informed the Nazi's decisions regarding the taking of human life.

Many will disagree with specific religious beliefs and secular ethics. Many will also take exception to Pope John Paul II's conservative Catholicism but I do believe that he was very forcefully a champion of that 'Spirit of Humanity' and that is why his appeal spread to many different people of different religious and political beliefs. That is also why I do believe after all, that the world has lost not only a great spiritual leader but a life-long champion of humanity.

In my modest opinion, the forgiveness, which is the most distinctive trait of Catholicism compared to Protestantism (and even more so Hebraism), makes of it a really progressive religion, even revolutionary, compared to the old Testament especially. It is true that the Catholicism is more conservative on some aspects (like the prohibition for priests to marry), but seeing the Pope sitting next to the man who tried to kill him, Agca, who is an active Muslim fundamentalist, and taking his hand, is the most revolutionary image that I ever saw from any religion, and I have yet to see another religion's leader to do something equally revolutionary. It is there -in the understanding of the different and the forgiveness of those who hurted us- that lies a hope for the humanity, if there is any. All of this, of course, in my humble opinion.

No matter what religion you subscribe to. The core of all of them is to treat others as you would yourself (or better). If you are serving others who need help. Then you are a religious person in the most important sense of the word. Instead of focusing on this one singlemost important message. Followers of any organized religion focus more on the specifics of their religions. In otherwords, how to do this, that and the other thing. And in so doing. Never actually make it to the part of acting properly towards their fellow man. I didn't follow this Pope's adventures. But it sounds like he was trying to focus on that very thing. I do hope he is rewarded for being a good person. And not so much for being "Catholic". -ScottA

"The core of all of them is to treat others as you would yourself (or better)." This is the biggest problem of many religions, this is a WRONG concept. A wrong premise has a consequence bad results. Why it is wrong?, very easy, if you hate yourself applying this concept you will hate and harm the others! Tell me how many people hate themselves, is so common..... The secret is, before anything you must love yourself first!

"The secret is, before anything you must love yourself first! " In my opinion, this is the cause of much wrong and bad in the world. First one should love and respect God, or, if not a believer, one should love and respect the whole of mother Nature as it shows itself in it's beauty. These are both concepts that include us all humans, as well as the plants and the animals, and it is a much better starting point than an ego perspective. In my opinion of course.

If you don't love yourself how you will be able to love something else? You must have love inside for giving love, if you have hate inside you give hate.

My God, this seems to be a never-ending discussion... I'm afraid I'm about to enter in a dangerous path... Jesus, help me to have the force not to offend anybody tonight and not to have to fight moderators once again... I've been said to use provocation, which is something totally true, but what I read there is so.... MY GOD, I feel like an amateur, now.