Attached Link: http://www.sparkchaser.net/blather/penglatest.html

I Blather, You Decide. (...everything but Bill O'Reilly, no?) :) /P

It's nice to know Ron found a welcome home at PoserPros. And sorry about the layoff, but you'll find something else very soon. I know you're fair and balanced in your opinions, so it won't become a situation where merchants might feel pressured to fork over the goods, in order to avoid a bad review.

Oh, lord, 'mano! That's not my intention at all! (someone suggested @ the PPros thread that I solicit merchants for stuff to review, and I'd pretty much answered that one with the same suspicions... basically, if I were a merchant and saw such a request, I'd look at me and go "WTF!?" I am putting together a more formal proposal for the stores themselves, though - a couple of them were pretty receptive to it when I floated the idea. I want to get a formal presentation complete with rating criteria and specific instructions as to how the things get rated before I submit it, though. (As far as the stuff itself, basically I'd be happy to sign a notarized agreement stating that I don't pass 'em around to anyone, and that I destroy the files once I'm done reviewing 'em.) /P

Who are you? Why are your "blathers" anymore important than anyone elses praises or criticisms? Not meant as bashing I don't know you actually quite a sincere question. We have movie and theatre critics "terrible film, horrible show", then the masses go see it and they love it, what makes you any different and why should anyone listen? Maybe what you find to be garbage, someone out in poser land absolutely loves. I'm not a merchant either, just curious.

Message edited on: 04/29/2005 14:21

Hi Pengy,

Dr Geep here.

I am going to "jump-in-here" B4 this thread gets locked/deleted, etc.

Long story short ... I am inclined to agree with your basic premise which you set forth in previous threads (which have apparently gone the way of the wooly mammoth).

How-some-ever ... if I may ... I had (gently) suggested that the MP here at R'osity adopt some type of a "5 Star Rating" system similar to those that can be found at Amazon.com, et al.

I believe that the system was adopted and allowed customers to provide feedback for products.

Potential buyers could see the product's rating at a glance.

Obviously, "1 Star" meant "Let the buyer beware" ...
(good advise, anyway, no?)
... and "5 Stars" meant superb value for the bucks.

I believe the system was implemented but appears to have gone the way of the wooley mammoth, also.
Is that repetatively redundant ... sorry, my bad. ;=[

This would, of course, depend on the buyers using the "system" for it to work properly.

Got a bogus product? ... Give it a low ranking to drag it's overall rating down (kinda like what is done in the gallery) ... Hmmm, maybe we could use something like ... what is shown in the graphic.

Nah ..... prolly not ... because ...... low rankings might just affect sales and that would mean less $$$.

And ... Everybody knows that $$$ talks, no.

IMVHO - ICBW. ;=]

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

I would also suggest that you get permission from the merchant to do a 'review' as I see it renderosity or anyother store doesn't hae the right to give you merchandise witih out permission from the merchant.

Name em and shame em. Shame on you /P.

Good blather, /P. The idea you started with is shaping up well.

odeathoflife: Depends on the merchant agreement - some do allow for it, some don't. Dunno about Renderosity yet. It's part of what I'm working on determining now. (IMHO I think it should be allowed, if only to keep everyone on their toes.) " Who are you? Why are your "blathers" anymore important than anyone elses praises or criticisms? Not meant as bashing I don't know you actually quite a sincere question." I understand... me, I'm just a normal guy who has been hanging around in these parts since 2001; I've built meshes, textures, poses, lights, and pretty much anything else one can think of for Poser, and I've done dev work, modelling and level-editing for FPS game MODs since around 1998 or so. However, understand that my opinions aren't any more important than the next guy's - I just take the time to lay it out in a way that hopefully makes sense, and has some use to the average Poser user. It's only there for the taking or leaving. /P

The main problem would be what you also see in the galleries, namely that some people give eachother an excellent even when it's really a work that needs...work. In the MP, you often find user's ratings that come clearly from either beta-testers or else from "the merchants who live on the hill". Which is why I never ever let myself be influenced by the rating system here. Like you guys say: it sucks. Sometimes there is real rating though. For example when someone writes that the bump is not correct in P5, or that there are visible seams where the neck texture of body and head meet,... That is valuable information. So I am very interested in getting an independant and thorough review of a product. I have read your "blathers", and your knife is sharp as a scalpel, but you use it to cure, not to hurt or kill. So I don't get why a thread like this should be closed. Or it should be because possible sources for kiddieporn, sm and ultraviolence may be sold, but not shown. (here we go again!) ehhh...

What about "survival of the fittest"? The situation will take care of itself without any self-appointed critic making decisions for me that I want to make for myself.

(...everything but Bill O'Reilly, no?) :) Bill O'Reilly gets paid better. ;)

" What about "survival of the fittest"? The situation will take care of itself without any self-appointed critic making decisions for me that I want to make for myself." You're absolutely right... it's your money after all, go spend it as you see fit. Caveat Emptor. /P

thanks for the kind answer, i enjoyed reading your Blather, so "Blather away", Good Luck to you

Yes siree, you seemed to have touched a few nerves. What I don't understand is why you have seemed to abandon your original concept; which I believe was voluntary submissions from merchants to have their products rated. In this way: no submission, no review, and no bruised egos. And the so-called struggling merchants who did submit, and recieved favorable reviews would have enhanced credibility. A couple months back, I tried to do just that. I wrote you and said something to the general effect; "that whether the review was good or bad, to have at it". But I never got any word back; not even a request denied. Perhaps there was some sort of mixup, I dont know. But whatever, I really thought your idea of a review for a voluntary product submission was a cool idea. It's a shame that it didn't get more developed. Take Care, Kirwyn

I got exactly two voluntary submissions since I first put up the thing, but I don't recall yours being one of them offhand - perhaps it was a foul-up; don't know, I'll have to check the records and see. I haven't abandoned the concept per se, just that I want it to be a bit more effective. /P

I got a chuckle out of Dodger's complaint about people not being sincere enough. 'everything is always perfect bye bye a friggin kiss Orietta' LMAO

Are we having FUN yet?

I got a chuckle out of Dodger's complaint about people not being sincere enough.
'everything is always perfect bye bye a friggin kiss Orietta'

I like optimists.

They are always so.......optimistic.

I think it's about time that did something like this. I got burnt a couple of times buying what I thought was a great texture, only to find that It really sucked when I tried to use it. God knows, I am not a great poser artist or whatever you what to call people who use poser. But I have been using Poser since it was just Poser as in Poser 1 and think that I do know a little something about how it all works. But when a texture makes looks great in the marketplace and then looks like a poor quality wax dummy when you use or it doesn't line up with the Poser character right, you have got to wonder. And No I didn't complain to the creater of the texture. I firmly believe in buyer beware. I did email one of the creators and got some advice on how to make it work, but still it wasn't what I thought I was getting. A review system I think would improve the overall quality and save me a few bucks here and there. So go for it and good luck

Maybe you'll be able to make a go of this thing, Peng. It'll be interesting to watch. If nothing else, you've stirred up some attention.

Besides which, no one can fire you from your own site. ;)

I agree that it would be good if there was more quality control, across all the stores, but I'm rather worried by the method you describe. In effect you become judge, jury and executioner on the merchants. Will you be reviewing the items for 'fidelity to prototype' for those that are models of real world items. A car for instance? It might make a great deal of difference to myself as a purchaser if a model of a car was the wrong shape compared to its prototype, probably moreso than if it had a poor texture map. Will you be looking into any copyright issues, which might restrict the purchaser from using the product. (I'm thinking here , not of copyright in modelling terms, but use and licensing of real world trademarks, logos etc), again these could be critical factors for a potential purchaser.

Another Good Blather, AGB;-) We may agree or disagree, but it's good to be thinking about these issues and not sweeping them under the carpet. Thanks

I think you're quite right to make this suggestion, Penguinisto. I also agree with Geep that a simple feedback system would be beneficial. Maybe both ideas could even work together.

Attached Link: http://poserpros.daz3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6416&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

There are merchants who think I'm their worst enemy for shooing ads out of the Poser gallery and Poser forum, but they were wrong. Insisting that rules be followed isn't very popular, but it is fair. What you are doing isn't fair. It is mean. And I'm using the word in its original sense of ugly, little, petty, low, common, and vulgar. Mean. Urging people who may not have even purchased the item to rip and tear and shred... anonymously? Given the fervor in this community and all the clone accounts? And then publish the more colorful ones ***all*** simply to bring readers to your website? Do you really need the ego boosted that badly? I remember the hell that Ron Knights put x2000 through... deliberately... on Thanksgiving Day... and you want to institutionalize and praise and encourage and profit from such behavior? You will attract the same people who stare at burning houses hoping to see crisped bodies or who block the freeways by gawking at bloodied bodies in the wreckage. This will do nothing to improve the quality of items in the various marketplaces. This will do nothing to increase the quality and frequency of freestuff providers. What it will do is viciously tear into anybody who dares offer a product who doesn't appeal to your tender and refined and so very sophisticated tastes. I have better things to do than hang around reading your exalted opinions. This is one reader who is repelled by carrion eaters... others can circle waiting for the next victim. I'm doing a disservice to Dr Guillotine by mentioning him. He, at least, started with noble intentions, before matters got out of hand. You do not. Carolly

Seems to me the new philosophy of the Poser community is "Let the buyer beware" instead of "The customer is always right". Thats what's mean, low, common & vulgar about this not pengy wanting to put quality first instead of profits.

Sorry my last post took so long to update I can't edit it. I want to change something I said, it's not the Entire community of merchants who are putting Profits first as there are quite a few who do really excel in their SERVICE to the buyers & the quality of their products & they should be applauded.

Okay as my little rant was linked in your article i thnk i have to give my opinion.

1st: I normally do not run through the different Poserboards,my job is too timeconsuming.I didnt know that there was some kind of "revolution" starting,i was only saying what i saw from my point of view.

2nd: I would love to see more quality but not in some kind of modern witchhunting.Thats unfair and it bears the risk of doing too much damage.I would suggest that the Poserstores increase their testing staff and increase the level of quality control.The rest will be in the hands of the customers.

So keep it in a civilized way.

Greetings from Germany and a nice weekend

Marko P.S: And what i know about the many communities,this theme will be forgotten in a month or so because there will rise new ones.And all this for a hobby.If i buy a new book for Dungeons & Dragons and it is crap,i dont use it.So when i think about all this,i stay with the phrase: Shop smart. End of message and good is.

Message edited on: 04/30/2005 04:43

When all this first started I was inclined to agree with a lot of it until I thought about it for a while, and sometimes you really do need to step back from an accident a little bit and wonder if your really a concerned driver or just another rubbernecker slowing down and gawking and throwing in your stone along with the crowds and mobs without having your own opinion. Although I agree with getting quality, I also agree with keping prices down and I would tend to argue that people in poser lands everywhere would have lots and lots more to scream about if they were paying for all this stuff through the nose!! You want perfection??? They can do it!! Weed out all the pimples and any possible fective stuff everywhere.. But who's gnna PAY for that extra care and time and sure as fire qualty?? Anyone want to do this for free and for real CHEAP the rest of their lives?? Perhaps someone should do a blather up of all these people that insist on doing blather up's of everyone else!! Maybe Penguinisto would like to volunteer to inspect every suspicious item in poserland himself, but for free because if you start eventually paying for his services I guarantee you people making stuff are going to reflect that price on YOU, the person looking to BUY!! Blather up title should be changed 'look at me, I want attention, and I will get it at the expense of all others.' Sadly, it's working.

I think a neutral board with a group of experienced Poser Users who review in a sincere way the articles,that they bought,would be a fair idea.But i also know this is nearly impossible because reviewer A is a good friend of producer B and so on and on.A Poser Utopia if you ask me.Good merchants will stay and the bad ones will vanish.Thats business.But a hacking game on merchants will do no good.It will eventually lead to the point that newbies will get discouraged and then it is over and we will get no fresh blood.Also after talking with some people you have to make it clear that many merchants are for example housewives who earn a little bit of extra cash that is urgently needed for the family.Every coin has two sides and i am not the one who would like to be in the position to judge people for the things that they sell.But i am willing to pay two or three bucks more for a procuct if i get higher quality and not the nearly unchanged number 1000 version of a texture resource. And now a nice weekend to all of you.Enjoy the free time,summer is coming. Marko

Nice blather, Pengy. And an interesting idea. And add me to the list of merchants in support, just for the humor factor alone. As I've said before, I'd love for you to buy my items and review them. I can always use the extra sale. I do think we need an independent review journal. A good one. "Name 'em and shame 'em" should only be a part of the greater whole though. And I believe you should include all products, even major releases by big houses. Not just the negative, but the positive. A "Consumer Reports" dealing with content and programs is a pretty good idea. Of course, you got some good and controversial discussion going too, and that's always healthy. A couple of things to keep in mind though. There are different classes of vendors. There's those of us who make things and would give them away if we could, but Poser is an expensive hobby, and the few bucks we make support our habit. Then there are the "real" vendors: those who make their living from Poser sales. The impact of your reviews will have a much more major effect on "real" vendors than the occassional vendors. Their income depends on a good review and reputation. Higher priced items are also more of an impact to the buyer's pocket. A review of a 99 cent special wouldn't mean as much to a buyer as the $39.99 offering of a major figure with morphs. Sometimes a price point needs to be considered. I'd rather spend 99 cents on a fair item, than $39.99 on a fair item. A lot of things to take into consideration, but I have every confidence in your ability and judgement. I have even more in mine, so, as always, I'll read your opinions with a grain of salt and make my own decisions. Good luck, bud.

rotflmao ok i had to jump befor lock on this dude your a hoot name them and shame them you go jone rivers you want to trash my stuff have at it ill even give it to you no publicity is bad publicity. I myself stand behind my stuff its ezy to use i keep my msn on all day and night and have the msn meg on my home page for ppl that want to ask how to use it if they are not sure i have 100% customer sevice 24/7 So you want to play im came hun just drop me a line. hugz Bobbie

Bad publicity is usually bad publicity as well. As I've said in previous posts, I do acknowledge and agree with the reasons why this has been proposed. There does need to be some cleaning up in the marketplaces. Certainly, there is a lot available ... but the quality varies by a wide margin. The thing that I objected to initially was the presentation of the proposal .. the wording was harsh and insensitive, and only led one to believe that the "shaming" would be equally so. Now that the community has given more feedback, it seems as though it may develop into something that might be useful ... if done properly and without maliciousness. The review committee should consist of people with varying levels of expertise and experience to make it a fair review. And the review system should be presented to all venues in this community for comment and suggestions before it is put "live".

Deecey right there is a lot of crap flling out in the mp and yes i sed crap with a texture made up of 12 dif resources packs and all you do is added them all in to make one kit im not all for use them all hell use a few thats cool but if your hole pack is made with just resources kits them whats the point of even buying it just buy the same resources kit and make it your self i do think some kind of quality need to me taken and a limet to how many resources kits should be used in one pack i think no more then to should be used in one MP thing

Amazing how many folks start screeching before they actually read how the reviews are shaping up.

.....all the usual forum tags.......rolls eyes, shakes head.......whatever.

All of this DRAMA over a thing that (for me, anyway) is nothing but a pastime. A casual hobby. A hobby that I really, really enjoy -- but nonetheless a hobby.

Not the type of matter that should be the cause of the intense level of consternation that we so often see in the forums.

my severe disagreements with him regarding politics to the contrary

I have severe agreements with Peng when it comes to politics.

And I feel that he has been mostly fair in his "blathers".

shrug

But if it were me (which it isn't), then I wouldn't consider $5.00 to $20.00 Poser merchant packages to be a thing worthy of all of this forum melodrama.

Peng should be able to pull off a decent job of reviewing products. But I say this with reservations.

A few of my reservations:

1. It's not worth the trouble that it's likely to cause.

1. It'll get people at each other's throats again......not that they need any excuses. If it wasn't over this, then it would be over something else.

2. He's inevitably going to get the "what's so special about you to be doing this?" reaction from some. Not that it's any big deal. Such attitudes never bother me -- or at least I'm not dissuaded/intimidated by them.

3. After a time, a certain crowd will set a lot of stock by these "independent" reviews -- while another -- far larger -- majority of Poser aficionados will continue to do business as they have always done -- and completely ignore the reviews. In fact, they will probably be utterly unaware of the review's existence.

But enough fans will come along to keep it going.

---

Frankly, all-in-all -- it just doesn't amount to a hill of beans to me.

I'll read Peng's reviews out of idle curiousity. I might even find some helpful information from them.

But I'll be making up my own mind on my purchases.

Some of us have an irritating habit of doing that.

---

As for Peng's motives in doing this -- it's not mine to judge.

Even if he is motivated by a simple desire to grab attention -- hey -- I like to hear myself talk as much as the next guy. So I can't afford to be too hard on Peng.

I'd be judging myself in the process. And one must be fair about these things.

If most forumites didn't care about getting attention, then we wouldn't be spending anywhere near the amount of time hanging around here that we do. At least we'll admit to this if we are honest both with ourselves and with others.

On the other hand, some of us seem to crave attention a lot more than our peers..........but in that case it's simply a question of degree; not of kind.

---

My suggestion:

Leave Ron Knights alone.

Admittedly, he's a guy that's done some things wrong along the way. Although I wasn't involved in the altercations that have gained him his pariah status within the community. I haven't even read the infamous x2000 threads over at PP. Nor do I need to.

This stuff gets.......way out of hand.

In fact, it gets downright silly.

If the man is such an irritant -- then take the best solution:

Ignore him.

But don't constantly use him as a human punching bag.

---

The same goes for Peng's reviews.

Read 'em if you like 'em. Otherwise, ignore the reviews completely.

But don't let someone else's opinion ruin your day. It's not worth the bother.

If you are confident enough, then you don't need to be validated by the good opinion of someone else.

After I purchased this V2 texture in the RMP, I sent the merchant an e-mail with a screen shot similar to this one. I received an e-mail from the merchant informing me that they were too busy with other projects at the moment, but would upload a fix to the marketplace when they had the time. Well that felt too much like a brush-off, but no biggie...and I kept quiet about it. Needless to say, the merchant landed on my no-buy-from list.

Today I remembered this V2 texture, and out of curiosity downloaded it from my purchase history to see if the merchant ever fixed it. As you can see in this render, apparently not.

And you know what? This product is still in the marketplace for sale... people are buying it and have been, for three (3) years.

Fortunately for merchants who don't give a damn, there are customers like me who will buy this crap and never complain.

:-(

Ok this thread is being Locked down. SndCastie Community Admin