Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=960405&Start=1&Artist=TomDart&ByArtist=Yes

This is posted for one primary reason: To encourage those photographers out there who cannot afford and do not have the "best of the best" cameras, 35mm or digital, who shoot pictures because they love to do it. I am among the "cannot afford" group.

Yes, better equipment means technically better images from the quality of image point of view. This does not mean the best image for others to see nor does it mean the best in artistic value, to you or to others.

As I recall from a recent post, the wonderful photographer of macros, Enmos, uses a non-SLR Nikon digital for the macros. Hummmm...there is hope here! See the Enmos images and you might agree.

I am for fostering in me and in others the desire for good, better and fine photography. It is easy to start to believe that the "equipment wars" or the perceived need for better and more expensive cameras means better images.

Please draw the line somewhere! My dentist can take an image and make my teeth look wondeful in his imaging methods of what "may be done" but these are not the images you want to see. His images are techinically correct, for certain...lacking totally in what makes a good photograph for public viewing and artistic merit. His images are not intended for either artistic merit or public viewing.

So, whether you use 35mm, DSLR, point and shoot digital with manual overrides...take heart. There are those here like me who are behind you.

Note, I am not very good at photography compared to the really good ones you see on 'rosity with a few looks through the galleries. Then again, my good stuff is not bad and some is really nice. This started with a digital camera from my ISP as a giveaway, about the quality of a cellphone photo. Then to an old Minolta DiImage F100 to a Nikon D70...still not pro level at all but nice.

A brief history of a father who had a darkroom in the basement and tri-x film, rangefinder cameras and decent ones...that was the real start revived in my later years.

Take heart. We are good folks for the most part and encourage everyone who tries. That encouragement from others has meant the world to me. It will mean the same to you, at any level of photography, in receiving and in giving.

Attached is a link to one image of mine I like, not great but fun and not too bad either. I post this just to say that a couple of years ago this image would have been impossible for me. Now, it is not impossible but better is in the works.... ; )

Speak as you might on this late night thought. Some folks out there need the encouragement and the advice to keep it in focus! Thanks for hearing these ramblings. TomDart.

Message edited on: 06/15/2005 22:16

Standing Ovation for You Tom!!! What you said is so true. (I'll look at that link after my comment).

I work at a camera/photography store and often see the processed images. Some of the best images I see are from the compact or "prosumer" digitals. Some of the images that come from people with the more advanced digital SLR's are less than impressive. usually those with the better (& older) 35mm SLR's have experience behind them so their prints are usually better.

It wrenches my gut on here when I see people in the forum talking about specific high-end cameras &/or lenses- and their photos are really nothing special. SOME are- don't get me wrong, BUT SOME of the others could use training in composition & imagination (despite what the comments under their photos here on RR say).

Message edited on: 06/16/2005 02:23

I agree Tom....wholeheartedly :) DeviousMoose: I always say, everyday is a learning day :)...be it with a DSLR, prosumer etc etc...find it unfair to pigeon hole the ones with DSLR's. Personally, I dont think folk on here would spend 1000 to 3000 pounds plus on gear just for the sake of it. End of the day, its the person behind the cam...either you have it, or not!

I agree Jimry....sure it is nice to have such things as extra gear, I am happy with my Canon Eos 350D with some lenses....and I see the deference no doubt between all my camera's....but the eye means a lot.....if you don't see the details then it is not necessary to spend a lot

Ilona

Message edited on: 06/16/2005 02:41

funny you should mention it... someone just passed me the link posted in the above thread which touched humorously on the subject... :] a camera is just another tool, no matter if it's a DSLR or an instamatic that an artist uses to express themselves... it is nice to have the finest of sable brushes though but not necessary to paint a masterpiece & here at RR we do encourage those of all levels

Very well said, it is indeed very much more to do with the person behind the camera, and how they convey their vision of the subject of that photograph. Also important is that it is enjoyable for the person making the shots, I myself recently uploaded some images captured with a very basic point and shoot, the only real difference (apart from no manual control) being that they wont print as big. I have seen some truly superb photographs and some awful ones in my time, both with basic cameras and professional cameras alike. From professionals and amateurs photographers alike .

Couldnt agree more with what you guys are saying. All the photos in my gallery are shot using my trusty Point&Shoot...and Olympus mju 400, 4MP with practically no zoom at all. I just recently got me a Canon Powershot Pro1 and im actually quite grateful i cant change lenses on it. I will have enough to learn with just being able to adjust exposuretime and other stuff that werent possible with my P&S. And besides...what i couldnt do before with my old cam i could most often do in Photoshop instead, LOL.

Interesting that you mention having very little zoom, much of the time I use a standard non zoom lens, therefore have to walkabout to get composition. That is not always possible in some situations or with certain types of photography. But I will say this, especially to the beginners, using a fixed focus lens will improve your compositional skills because you have to think more about what you are doing, every time you do that you are learning. Further more Prime (fixed focus) lenses are generally superior in quality to their zoom counterparts, for technical reasons that I wont go into here. Bottom line is, if you have a basic point and shoot with no zoom you can still take great photographs with a little practice and experience.

yes Simon...well put...I also believe it is what one wants to achieve in the output too! I chose my cam carefully...this time last yr, I had a prosumer Minolta Dimage A1, before that, a Fuji S5000, and before that, a Fuji 2300 point and shoot! I call it progression to ones needs :) End of the day, good thing about digital is we can go out, take 100-400 odd images and get a few good ones...be it with any cam!

well it's quite an interesting thread here... i guess it's absolutely right - the photographers eye ist most important for a good picture...!!! you can even do brilliant shots with a 3 MP digicam.... for posting them in the net it's enough resolution... i personally have such a little thing which i use sometimes - otherwise i'm using my SLR -- ATTENTION: NON Digital ;) - so print films... and i have to say: i think twice or three times about a pic... if i do the click - one of my print's done... not delete or something else... that's training... :) and apart from this... it's more important to look on the mirror-reflex-finder thank look through it... :) anyway - i'd encourage all to try an train - no matter what equipment they have... also beacuse - as andreas pointed out - it's important to learn to use what you have... i'm not sure whether i'd need all the funcionality of a BIG DSLR... i am still learning to use my loved canon :) if i got that done i can think about more...!!!

I have a question! "it's more important to look on the mirror-reflex-finder thank look through it" What is a mirror-reflex-finder?

oh - well the searcher...?!? or finder... i don't know the real english term... that little window where you see what you take if you make "click" in that moment... ;) sorry - i'm not native english :$

the 'viewfinder' then :)

cool - so it's a great day... :) i've learned something :))

That what I thought, but look on it and not throught it, made mw wonder if there was somthing I have missed all these years. Thank you.

I agree very much And like many started posting here with a small Fuji and then a Dimage 7HI.. Modern film and digial technology has progressed to the point where recent products would have cost a fortune a few years ago.. Having a good eye and finding the right moment and a bit of luck at times, can result in superb images.. And the final point is a bit of passion for what you do..

I think chender means "look through the viewfinder, not the lcd display"...which is exactly what most folks out there with digital cameras do, looking at the lcd and not through the viewfinder. I did that at first then learned real quickly I did better compo using the viewfinder, like always done before with film. I asked myself, why use this little lcd that is impossible to see in bright light. Great responses..I hope anyone new to the art and fun of photographty will read your posts. Cyn(post #6), I have had sable brushes! I soon learned to respect the brush and leave it alone! Still nice to have them, agreed.

I'm not totally convinced that you cannot get good compositions with an LCD on the back of a Digital Camera (well, non SLR ones ;) ). I used both the LCD and the viewfinder on my Sony 717 and got some good compo's with both methods (well, IMHO anyway :D ). I'd agree that using the viewfinder is definately better most of the time though - but I do find my DSLR more restrictive at times because I cant angle up or down the LCD, and take images easily at floor level or at arms length over my head. I knew that when I changed from the 717 (a prosumer) to the 20d (a DSLR) I'd actually suffer a DROP in quality! The 717 is alot easier to use, even in manual mode, than a DSLR. I beleive SLR's require different technical skills than digital compacts, but the composition skills required are the same. So yes, take heart if you cant afford a DSLR. You can still achieve really really good images and compete with SLR owners using the most basic of camera. Anyone thats been watching the BBC series "A digital picture of britain" will have seen this. 3 professional photographers are given 3 different cameras. One a top of the range DSLR, another a mid range compact digital and the last a 2 megpixels camera phone. All of them get good results, and even those using the camera phone get images comparable to the those of the DSLR - from a composition point of view at least.

Wivelrod, yes there are times when the lcd is a must with my little Minolta..such as macros! Otherwise, viewfinder for me. With the Nikon it is, of course, all TTL.

Tom is right, maybe we do focus too much on the equipment at times. The artistic vision of the person behind the lense is what makes it happen. A camera buy itself will just sit there, no matter how much it costs. I do think that a better camera will give the artist more options and possibly make it easier to translate what they want to get across. And let us not forget about the software side. People spend big bucks for copies of Photoshop. A person can get a wonderful image from PS Elements and a 3 MP camera, so theoretically they should be able to get an even better result from a 5+MP camera and a full version of Photoshop. But as you say, there has to be some skill/talent there in the first place, otherwise it is money down the drain...

Ah yes I agree with Adrian here!! I use the Sony f717 and, to be honest, I NEVER use the viewfinder!! The f717 has a fantastic articulated body and u can shoot in every position so easily!!! I still want the Canon 20D because I have a gut feeling about that cam but I'm very pleased with my prosumer 'lil Sony and I will keep it even when I'll buy my dream Canon 20D! And yes, "the eye" is what makes 80% of a pic indeed IMHO! Thx Tom for that cool thread, once again! :)

I agree with all said above.... For first, please forgive my bad english... For second .... my photographic story is shortly wroted on my homepage... ive bought a little camera just for fun some years ago... last year a olympus c740... 3megapixel, a 3cm macro range and a 10x tele... ive bought some macro and close up lens... In that period ive try to make some different shots... not the same tourists like (friend in that city, friend in that place, me at the lake... etc)... for learnin is enough a little equipment... if youre satisfied and your passion say you what to do, realize your dreams, life is short and a new cam can make you very happy... Btw the most important thing is the EYE! Ive bought a new money box... maybe ill wait a lot, but i want to learn much possible and desire my new camera (at the moment a eos350d... but im searchin again) so the satisfaction when ill buy it, will be very big. beautiful discussion! May

Thank you May, I appreciate you sharing your perspective with us. :)

Ooooh oooooh...i gotta participate some more in this neat little thread now. Like i said up untill now ive been using a simple point&shoot and to be honest im quite pleased with alot of the shots that one produced...now...yes, it might not be necessary to have a camera loaded with settings and what not...but..lets not forget that OH MY GOD HOW MUCH MORE FUN IT CAN BE TO BE PHOTOGRAPHING!!!! I JUST TRIED OUT MY NEW CAM FOR THE FIRST TIME AND IM SOOOOOOO THRILLED JUST BEING ABLE TO SET SOMETHING AS THE SHUTTER SPEED, LOL. OOOOOH YES, IM WELL AWARE OF ME SHOUTING....BUT THATS HOW EXCITED I AM!!! This is soooooooo much more fun than just point and shoot. Wheter i will be able to take better shots or not, that has yet to be discovered. OOOOH...gonna go play some more with it!!!! ....pssssst....i agree with Pascale...never uses the viewfinder. When i do i tend to lose balance and trip on something, lol. See ya!!!!!

Hmmmm.....looks like my english became even worse when i "just had to type" being in that state of mind...sigh...

Agree but then we all do by looks of it :) I gave a link to Alex Majoli who uses Olympus C5050 and other Olympus point and shoots and even describes some of his techniques in Korts thread the other day, so here I will just say the late great Fay Godwin owned a Minolta Dimage 7hi in later years and apparently was very happy with the pictures it gave. Link for Fay Godwin these are older images taken on film, but think it shows she knew what to look for.

Yes you did and that was a great link and read. Definately proves the point that one need not be overly limited by the camera. Fay Godwin's book looks wonderful, the images there make we want to find it so I can see them in person. Thanks for sharing that!

ROFL@Andreas!!! Fully awake I see my friend huh! Hangover's obviously over too! ;) Thx for the link Rich! :)

Another excellent thread! You certainly have a talent for creating good threads Tom.

I must admit I never used the LCD with my P&S unless absolutely necessary, Having used one form of SLR or another for bets part of 30 years, one gets used to looking through the viewfinder, maybe stuck in my ways, but for good reason. Using the viewfinder it is easier to steady the camera, tuck your elbows into your body to steady the camera, easier to keep level, less chance of camera shake, and no problem with the sun on the screen (ok thats not much problem here most of the time anyway lol) Old habits die hard. The only exception being in awkward spaces of low to ground as already mentioned, cant beat the LSD for that. I have also put the P&S in a flat sided glad jar and sat it in shallow water and done underwater shots pressing the shutter with a stick, difficult but can get some cool effects sometimes.

"...cant beat the LSD for that"!! O_o That's for sure! ;) LOL!

Oops I meant "LCD" Its beel a long day MAN!! lol

Hehe!! ;)

LOL. The truth comes out!

Personally I can't understand the reluctance to use the lcd - Compositionally photographers with medium format cameras using waist level view finders seem not to have a problem, nor do the photographers who use large format view cameras with a screen back.
I agree holding at arms length can introduce camera shake but good technique will overcome this disadvantage and the bigger range of pov available imho far outweighs the disadvantage.
Sun on the screen can make it difficult to see - yep wish the manufacturers would put a proper shade on them as they do say for film cameras with a waist level view finder.
For any slr owners with lcd envy you can get one Here :D

Message edited on: 06/16/2005 15:22

I saw the ZigView in a camera magazine. A neat little peice of equipment. But I agree with you...if you have an LCD, then make use of the dang thing. It may not be right for all situations, but it certainly comes in handy at times.

Now I have to add to the incredible thread too. :) I don't think I have ever said what I use (as if anyone really wants to know). I'm not popular enough to warrent being asked, but I will tell anyway. :)~ I use a Fuji FinePix S3000. The zoom is 6x optical I think. This is my first digital camera. I have a 35mm Minolta Maxxum also, but I'm not good enough yet to have all my images printed and I like to see what I have done when I want, without going anywhere. :) I agree that you have to have an eye for it, but more or better equipment can help in certain cases. For example, I love to zoom in on nature, usually animals that run away if I get too close. My camera has a hard time focusing when it's zoomed in on something. Most of the time the surrounding area is focused while the main part of the image is blurry. Frustrating to say the least. I would love a DSLR with a zoom lens and a macro lens so I can get up close and personal with nature and animals without intruding on them. As for viewfinder vs. LCD.......I use both depending on what I'm doing. If I move at all my images get blurred, but using the viewfinder helps with that sometimes. LCD of course gives more povs to play with. Great thread, especially since I am one of those with NO confidence in my abilities. Hopefully I will gain some soon. So, there is my contribution. :)

Damia everyones experience and views are valued here (we all benifit from sharing experiences and opinions), so yes we do want to hear about what you use and how you find them. You have 2 excellent cameras there and produce some delightful images. Specialist equipment does meet specialist needs like nature photography. Where large lenses, macros and fast cams are needed just to get the shot sometimes.

I wasnt implying that using the LCD is in anyway wrong, and if it works for people that is great, I don't like it, and find it awkward, using an SLR or DSLR almost exclusively means that I seldom have the option, that maybe partly why I have never got into the habit. You can now get a LCD screen that attached to the DSLR eyepiece and captures the viewfinder image with a CMOS sensor, these can also be tilted, and look like that could be very useful, I will see if I can find the link. Oh yes Damia of course your opinion is very welcome as are you. Come on in and join the fun. Have a go at the monthly chalenge ask questions, show your pictures. etc ect.

Attached Link: http://www.karlu.com/product_info.php?products_id=8764

I whole-heartedly agree with all the comments! It truly IS the person behind the camera that makes the decision to capture a specific moment in time...whatever that maybe! The photography is the catalyst, pressing the shutter button, causing a reaction. We are seeing images from everyones viewpoints these days and the camera is the tool of choice to accomplish this "feat". I think with the advent of digital photography, the artistic side of many has blossomed! It enables us to experiment and try things we probably would not have tried in the past. There is always a "jump on" point where technology is concerned and we have to start somewhere. For most of us that was a point & shoot...as we OUT GROW the limitations of a camera, its easy to get wrapped up in some of the more technical aspects of a given camera. Tech changes so quickly, it is "instilled" in us to crave more! It overlaps with the other tools we use like computers and software! Do we REALLY utilize ALL the power of these tools, do we constantly need to upgrade...more harddrive space to accommodate all those images and the new software updates? Its sort of a vicious circle! In the end though it is the PERSON, who used WHATEVER tools they have avaialble in their arsenal...to create...works of ART!

Exactly! Beautifully said Joe! :)

Thanks Joe. I know that need for expression...to allow a creative nature find freedom and discipline. I am a software junkie and need not be; my primary creative outlets use little of the software but enough to get a job done and to accomplish something. This accomplishment may not please others or rank highly in their eyes but for me it is essential.