Hi there, i wonder if anyone can help me by introducing me to a sound classification system for lepidoptera. Im building a website about insects and im having trouble with the many ways people classify insects and in particular lepidoptera. Im currently sticking to the system used by CBIF but that doesnt seems to hold up very well for the lepidoptera sigh Any help would be greatly apopreciated :o) Thanks and have a wonderful day, Jeroen

Attached Link: http://internt.nhm.ac.uk/jdsml/nature-online/nature-navigator/

Still wouldn't have a clue ! :D

Edit:
Can't even get the link to work :D
Go to this one and put in: Lepidoptera
It might get there.
Seems to have Latin on the left with common names on the right :)

Message edited on: 08/24/2005 10:15

Just love all their water colour paintings of them.
They interviewed a person on TV whos job it was to do those and keep them up to date, she said: "Watercolour paintings are so much more accurate than photographs" :D but then I'd say that too if I had her job :)

Message edited on: 08/24/2005 10:22

Hey thanks for the input Richard ! :o) But i guess i should have been somewhat clearer. My problems are with the suborders, everyone seems to have a different classification. CBIF does it like this: Order Lepidoptera Suborder Frenatae Suborder Jugatae Suborder Macrolepidoptera Suborder Microlepidoptera Others do it like this: Order Lepidoptera Suborder Zeugloptera Suborder Dacnonypha Suborder Exoporia Suborder Monotrysia Suborder Ditrysia Still others do it like this: Order Lepidoptera Suborder Rhopalocera Suborder Heterocera Or like this (also CBIF, on a different page(????)): Order Lepidoptera Suborder Glossata Suborder Zeugloptera Suborder Aglossata Suborder Heterobathmiina Yet other claim this is the right classification: Order Lepidoptera Suborder Jugatae Suborder Frenatae Suborder Rhopalocera Whats even worse is that although some systems use the same suborders, they put diferent SuperFamilies and Families in them than other systems do... Im confused CRY Anyways, thanks a lot for your help Richard !! :o) LOL about those watercolor painting hehe ;o) Have agreat day, Jeroen

They seem to have missed out the suborder level and gone straight to family. Wish you luck - it sounds a daunting task.

LOL Thanks, i might eventually be forced to just pick one or something and hope i dont run into further problems :o(

hi jeroen...working on this. here's what i have so far. 1. Order Lepidoptera Suborder Jugatae Suborder Frenatae Suborder Rhopalocera **Rhapalocera is not a suborder; it's a FAMILY. 2. Order Lepidoptera Suborder Rhopalocera Suborder Heterocera **both Rhapalocera & Heterocera are FAMILIES 3. Order Lepidoptera Suborder Frenatae Suborder Jugatae Suborder Macrolepidoptera Suborder Microlepidoptera **classifying by size (macrolepidoptera & microlepidoptera) is apparently not the most scientific way to classify the suborders. At this point, i have it down between these two as being correct: Order Lepidoptera Suborder Zeugloptera Suborder Dacnonypha Suborder Exoporia Suborder Monotrysia Suborder Ditrysia or Order Lepidoptera Suborder Glossata Suborder Zeugloptera Suborder Aglossata Suborder Heterobathmiina Here are a couple of links where i got some info. this one is one is an encyclopedia link: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Lepidoptera and here's one about classifications also: http://sn2000.taxonomy.nl/Taxonomicon/TaxonTree.aspx?id=29377 I've only had one cup of coffee this morning and still a bit sleepy. But maybe that helps you narrow it down. This is what I would do Jeroen. I used to work at a library. I would go to the library and explain your problem to someone who helps people find information. I betcha they can help you!!! Those librarians are so skilled at solving problems and figuring stuff like this out. I just know they could help you! Anyway, i'll try to help some more later if you want. Kemal and i are gonna go out in just a bit, but i will do my best to help you figure it out. I'm just stuck between these two ways of ordering and i can't figure it out. I'm sure it's simple, but i'm just too sleepy. I'll check back later and see! if no one seems to know the solution we'll just do some more detective work!!! :) see ya!!!!! :)

Thanks Sheila ! :o) This is however another big problem... some use Rhapalocera & Heterocera as families, others use them as suborders... theres more stuff like that cry

Yeah, i see what you're saying, Jeroen. I don't understand though why they would use rhapalocera & heterocera as suborders when they're families and not suborders. hmmmmmm.... Well, i think the next step to do would be to check out some museum sites online and see what they do. Richard had a good idea. We can take a look & see how these museums suborder them...just go to the major ones. I can do some more research for you later tonight and see what i come up with. Don't despair! Don't give up!!! we can figure it out! :) In the meantime...let me go grab that cup of coffee! i still haven't moved my lazy butt! LOL! (well, i just finished working about 35 hours in the past 3 days. my body FREAKIN' doesn't wanna MOVE!!! LOL! At least i have today and tomorrow off!!! anyway, coffee, fun in the sun, shoot some pictures, and then i'll be back to help you some more!!! :) Have a GREAT day!!! :)

As it is now im leaning towards: Order Lepidoptera Suborder Glossata Suborder Zeugloptera Suborder Aglossata Suborder Heterobathmiina Im familiar with "The Taxonomicon" but they have another order system that is, im afraid, no longer up to date. Thanks for your help :o) Jeroen

the Taxonomicon also seems to lean toward the order you & the CBIF are leaning toward. I haven't had enough time to study it and too sleepy. you got me interested though! i wanna know why these two suborders which are both used are so different. i won't stop till i figure it out!!! :) Have fun! :)

Ok, on the matter why some use them as families and others as suborders... there are different groups of scientists, some classify by form, others by size and still others by development and more... from their pov they are all doing it the right way. So in essence all classification systems are correct, its just the way you look at it... but there arise problems if you want to classify all insects in the same way, especially if no-one states which system they are using. I think however im going for [ Order Lepidoptera Suborder Glossata Suborder Zeugloptera Suborder Aglossata Suborder Heterobathmiina ] that one, to me, seems to be the most consistent :o)

Attached Link: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=taxonomy

LOL i do, i do, but ive got all that covered... its just that suborder thing thats bugging (no pun intended lol) right now ;o)

Dear Jeoren, I am totally out of my field in this one! However, I will make one suggestion you have likely already considered: Select a system most commonly used and state what that system is when working on the website. You will be able to tell viewers that the system does not seem perfect to you and perhaps provide links to other systems in use. Just a thought. This reminds me of a time when speaking with a professor of anthropology, specializing in ancient Egypt. I questioned him about the "time lines" of the pharoahs and recent speculation that the "traditional" time lines were off a bit. He said that his studies did show some evidences of mistakes in the accepted time lines. Yet, the historically accepted(by professors writing papers) was the safe way to go unless he wanted to unleash a firestorm. Strange ways academia behaves at times. If your site is for the common people, perhaps a system commonly avaiable such as in the Peterson books would be appropriate. If this will not work...well, you have your work set out to reestablish an ordering system. Now, off to get bug pictures..they do not tell me much about their families. : ) TomDart.

Thanks for your sound advice Thomas, thats seems to be to way to go indeed... if only i could figure out which system is most commonly used LOL. Havent seen any website that states which system they are using either well not clearly anyways. Some use several systems mixed up whit eachother also. I think the most sensible thing to do is to find a recent book on the matter and buy that... that, at least, would enable me to use one system and i will be certain of which system that would be :o) So, thats pretty much what you said :o) As for reestablishing an ordering system, i do have a life you know LOL It would probably take many years to do that if not my entire life ;o) The research that would be involved is truly mindblowing... sigh Would be VERY cool though :D Anyways, thanks to you all for the input and have a great day !! :o) Jeroen

That's a good idea, Jereon...to look at a recent book and see what system they use. Good luck!!! If you need any more help, let us know! :)