Attached Link: http://www.elena-web.co.uk

I started using Poser about a year ago. So far I just use Poser and Vue with 2 D support from photoshop. I was wondering should I add another 3D programme to the stable, into improve material editing, rendering and lighting. Is this worth it and what programme would best suit these needs. Any thoughts please

Which version of vue do you have? If it is 5 infinite then you don`t need a better renderer.

No not true, V5I have some missing renderer functions, AO, SSS, and more..

There are better renderers than Vue5I, but most of them cost way more. For example, 3dsMax runs in the $3500 range, and Maya is even more than that.
You might look into Shade DesignerLE. I don't know if its renderer is better than Vue5I, as I have never tried Vue5I.

Message edited on: 09/06/2005 10:38

No not true, V5I have some missing renderer functions, AO, SSS, and more..

Dont forget sub-poly displacement. ;-)

"There are better renderers than Vue5I, but most of them cost way more. For example, 3dsMax runs in the $3500 range, and Maya is even more than that."

That's true. I've tried Vue 5I demo, and wasn't greatly impressed with it's renderer. It does have some powerful and useful features though, especially for multi-pass rendering and layers, but it's not even close to something like MentalRay (which is used by Maya, 3dsMax, and XSI) in the quality/speed/features category. Then, if price was no object, there's always PRman, which is widely considered the "best" production renderer.

Message edited on: 09/06/2005 10:54

Surely vue 5 infinite can do something similar to AO? I dont know what SSS is. Vue 5 infinite is much easier to use than maya and 3dsmax.

"I dont know what SSS is." SSS = Subsurface Scattering. Materials like wax, skin, etc. all require it in some way to enhance realism. "Surely vue 5 infinite can do something similar to AO?" Not really. I mean, V5I does do actual GI, which is what IBL/AO are meant to simulate. The advantage of IBL/AO is evident for things like animation, where flicker control and fastest possible rendertimes are often desired. In most applications, IBL with AO (or dirt maps) is usually several orders faster than doing a GI calculation. Other than that, Vue has no real AO material or functionality. "Vue 5 infinite is much easier to use than maya and 3dsmax" Well, that depends. I've used two of the 3 apps you mentioned, and Vue 5 seemed quite a bit harder when trying to do some types of things. 3dsmax, for example, is a true modeling app, so if I wanted to create a wall with a window in it for a scene, 3dsmax would be much faster and easier for that task obviously. Also, I found things like placing lights, moving cameras, and navigating a scene much easier in Max than Vue. shrugs. It's all in what you're used to I suppose.

Don't forget Cinema 4D and the fantastic interPoser-plugin.... ;)

I just got the Lightwave/Vue5 package. Which one has the better renderer?

"I was wondering should I add another 3D programme to the stable, into improve material editing, rendering and lighting." Sounds like you do have Poser 5. If that is the case then the answer is no. Just upgrade to Poser 6 and you'll get improved material editing, improved rendering and improved lightning. You also get Subsurface Scattering with it. As for Vue 5 Infinite or Standard or Pro, it's not worth the money at all when it comes to rendering. Imo the Poser 6 rendering engine surpasses the Vue rendering engine.

Shade7 has a quite good renderer, but is missing (on the LE version) some things like displacement mapping, and GI other than Radiosity. For it's price, however, it is a bargain. There is lots of anticipation regarding the soon to be released Shade8, which among other things, promises very tight Poser integration

I guess the message conveyed by all of these different replies is that which one is best is actually a matter of opinion and perception, and also depends on exactly what you are looking for in a renderer. Also you need to take into account the strength (cpu speed, ram etc) of your computer (some of these are quite demanding in that area), and how much you are willing or able to spend.

I have to ask : what platform are you on? MAC or Windows what are your rendering plans, Stills or animations?? multi-character scenes with vast immersive environments?? or empty background portrait type work with head shots and alot of skin.???? without answers to these questions every one here is just stating. THIER preferences for what THEY do with poser . :-)

Lightwave does. In addition, you will be getting a free upgrade to LW9 with the bundle you purchased, which is touted to being up to 7 times faster than 8.3. (Which already is one of the fastest renderer out there.) With the upcoming "Fusion" plugin you will literally be able to render your VueI scene from within LW. Congrats on picking up on an awesome deal.

"I just got the Lightwave/Vue5 package. Which one has the better renderer?" Lightwave is by far the more mature and proven renderer. "Imo the Poser 6 rendering engine surpasses the Vue rendering engine." In some ways, I agree with you. To it's credit, however, the way Vue handles instancing and memory seems to be much more efficient. Also, Vue does have far greater control over the render output, specifically regarding G-Buffer channels for post production on video and stills.

"To it's credit, however, the way Vue handles instancing and memory seems to be much more efficient. Also, Vue does have far greater control over the render output, specifically regarding G-Buffer channels for post production on video" Thats Sort of my point . Its not just about running a few "Face_off" skin shader/AO scripts on a semi naked vicki figureand proclaiming .."WOW it looks so real"!! there are larger considerations depending on what your intentions are for your poser renders or animations. At its best the poser6 render engine produce some good renders but it is painfully slow and with no ability to distribute renders over a network poser falls way short of apps like VUE5I,LW or Carrara4 Pro for anyone seriously considering a full production pipeline and ive have yet to see any really GOOD Vast outdoor landscape renders with trees mountains and water from poser6 another thing to consider when seeking different render engines for poser content is how hard will it be to actually get your poser content into the other app intact. for me I prefer DIRECT support of the PZ3 format like Vue and Carrara Pro. having to export /import .obj files manually is why I finally left Cinema4D for Carrara pro with regards to using poser content

Firstly its not cheap, and secondly it depends what you want to do with the images, and thirdly, you get out of any package what you put in. Finally, get a demo and try it before you buy. Most 3D software companies have demos. Lightwave and Cinema both work well with V3. They both import quite effortlessly and render quite well. I have 2 renders of V3 in my gallery done with lightwave so have a look if you want to get an idea. Crommcruac does excellent stuff with 3d Max and I've seen mind blowing renders from Bryce. Theres a lot of choices.

If Vue is able to import Poser then why dont LightWave import all the things in scene from Vue with poser in it?

Message edited on: 09/07/2005 10:06

Thanks. I have Vue 4 so it seems that the best step could be VueI ( and the cheapest). In brief I do a lot of fantasy stuff for webs sites, mostly static. Thinking of moving into some hard copy and some animation for the web sites. Thats what started me thinking if I need to add to my current software

Vue 5 infinite probably would be best because it can import poser scenes and you know how to use it. The problem with 3ds max and lightwave etc is that they dont import poser figures and they dont have the great ecosystem that vue 5 infinite has.

Attached Link: http://www.reiss-studio.com/

***"for me I prefer DIRECT support of the PZ3 format like Vue and Carrara Pro. having to export /import .obj files manually is why I finally left Cinema4D for Carrara pro with regards to using poser content"***

Well, there IS a 3rd party .pz3 import solution available for Cinema4D. I don't know if you've seen BodyStudio, but they now have a C4D version out. It may not be integrated application support, but it would probably feel like it. See link above.

"The problem with 3ds max and lightwave etc is that they dont import poser figures and they dont have the great ecosystem that vue 5 infinite has."

BodyStudio also has a great plugin for 3dsmax that allows you to directly import a Poser .pz3 scene or animation, complete with dynamic cloth and hair. So there is support for Poser, but it will cost an additional $179.

True about the Ecosystem. Message edited on: 09/07/2005 19:35

"Well, there IS a 3rd party .pz3 import solution available for Cinema4D. I don't know if you've seen BodyStudio, but they now have a C4D version out. It may not be integrated application support, but it would probably feel like it. See link above." yeah I know all about Reiss they apparently "took over" development of the old propack plugin from curious labs but they utterly refuse to support MAC OSX Eovia Does, So they Get My hard earned $$$$Money$$$ besides Eovia's implementation is way better as the imported animated poser figure can interact with Carrara's native scene effects And frankly I found Carrara to be a better value as a poser render environment. For $550 USD I got a full package that UNCLUDES GLOBAL ILUMUNATION and HDRI in its fast hybrid render engine. and a good outdoor scene solution A decent fast dynamics /collision system and BVH import as well as FBX for full scene exchange with ALL of the other major packages A great particle system. and 5 render nodes for full network rendering pipeline NOw if you pay $700 USD for Cinema4D R9 today you get NO GI or HDRI no dynamics,or network rendering these all have to be $$Purchased$$ as separate Modules or in a $2000 "bundle" add to that $200+ for the "reiss studio" plugins for poser integration ( Assuming you are on windows) and you see why I have moved on to what will serve my poser animation rendering needs best at a reasonble price :-)

Plugins can be bought for max etc but that is more money to spend on top of buying the very expensive programs, too. $2000 dollars and upwards is a lot to spend on a hobby.

"besides Eovia's implementation is way better as the imported animated poser figure can interact with Carrara's native scene effects" I don't know about C4D, but Bodystudio, at least for 3dsmax, can interact with most of the native Max effects and modifiers; including particles, dynamics, materials, and mesh deformers. The only thing you can't do to the .pz3 is alter animated sequences or pose the characters from within the Max environment. That function is still tied to Poser. "$2000 dollars and upwards is a lot to spend on a hobby." Sure is. Then again, I know a lot of folks who have hobbies that require far greater expense! My nephew must have spent at least that much on video games alone, and an acquaintance of mine collects depression-era glass, which isn't cheap. LOL. Not to mention, there's many of us who do commissioned works as well, so for us, it's an investment... AND a write-off. ;-P

Is Lightwave renderer faster than Carrara?

NO At least not Lightwave 7.5 which i own also. stunning quality once you learn its subtleties though Can speak for LW version 8+ as ive pretty much abandoned the program like Cinema4D Due to lack of hassle free poser animationimport may sound sSilly I know, but I need my Poser/DAZ Stuff M2/V2 and will likely NEVER build original human models for these programs myself. :-)

"Is Lightwave renderer faster than Carrara?" krimpr posted above that Lightwave 9 is supposed to be up to 7 times faster than LW8, so I think it's possible now that it's faster than Carrara. Keep in mind, while Carrara does have a very fast raytrace engine, I doubt it's the fastest out there. I'd like to see benchmark renders of it vs. industry leaders like Vray, Mental Ray, Brazil, FinalRender, etc. to see how it's speed compares. Question: Does Carrara 4 still only support Phong highlights, like in version 3? I see no reason to ever use a phong shader over Blinn unless you have no choice. Anisotropic is also useful, and I don't think Carrara had it as of version 3?

Attached Link: http://www.eovia.com/products/carrara/carrara_full_features.asp

Honestly Dont know still learning all it features Here is the feature list

Renderer Brenchmark is very important to look at. Speed of renderer is asset to any hobby or business. Some animation projects can take decades if use slower renderer engine. Vue's renderer is so slow and may cost some more for renderer farm. I would like to see all renderer use the benefit with 64bits CPU.

Attached Link: 8 MEG QUICKTIME

For my personal single artist workflow 10 minute per frame is the maximum limit,ideally 7 min or less which means poser+Firefly for lengthy animations is a definate NO GO even if it didnt choke up on dense scenes (which it would with something like sanctumarts RDL7 Sci fi props ;-/) The Carrara portion of this clip (link) rendered at about 1min 53 sec per frame granted its only one figure 3 lights and a prop I can extrapolate from here to stay within my maximum min-per-frame requirements. what I like is that Carrara pro has a rendering panel that gives real time rendering stats including time elapsed,frames per min/hour and estimated completion times which updates constantly to account for scene changes that slow things down like blurry reflections& vector blurs etc. this of course is not even taking into account having the five included render nodes active on a small mini-farm if you have the extra machines to do so ( I dont :-( )

"what I like is that Carrara pro has a rendering panel that gives real time rendering stats including time elapsed,frames per min/hour and estimated completion times which updates constantly to account for scene changes that slow things down like blurry reflections& vector blurs etc." Didn't C4D show render stats like that? I know Poser is totally absent of such features (which IS a serious problem for animators). 3dsmax displays the same stats as Carrara, including a display showing how long the previous frame took to complete. Very useful indeed.

Comparing poser to much more expensive programs is still not fair.

"Comparing poser to much more expensive programs is still not fair." If eFrontiere decided to put a price tag of $900 on Poser 7, would it be fair then? ;-) I believe that not all Poser users are weekend hobbyists. I'm sure a great many are, but still I know some of us are actually interested in the industry as a whole, and making a living with their art/skills. So bringing to light what other applications can do with or without Poser, regardless of price, is perfectly appropriate in order to be informed. Don't you think so too?

"Didn't C4D show render stats like that? " NO only elapsed time the main reason i am such a strong advocate of external programs that include support of native poser scenes is that when that external program releases a new version it never completely leaves poser behind. every version of vue or carrara will include native import of some version of poser pZ3'S(4,5or 6) the BIG problem with depending on third party plugin makers is that they seem to never keep up with the latest version of your hosting app. Maxon is about to release Cinema4D version 9.5 there is no guarantee the those reiss plugin will still work the same for MAX and MAYA's next version I remember too well the frustration of having to stay with Cinema4DXlversion 7.3 in MAC OS9 (GAG!!!) for years to keep using my poser propack to C4D plugin working. waiting wistfully for an update that never materialized.

"for years to keep using my poser propack to C4D plugin working. waiting wistfully for an update that never materialized." Oh I can understand that, Wolf, and I don't blame you for "moving on", so to speak.