Here's a render of Mt. St. Helens in Vue rendered from an 8192 x 8192 terrain. It is not "easy" to get a terrain this big in Vue- and quite often it will crash Vue as it doesn't want to normally go past the 4K x 4K size.

The main "trick" is to size up the terrain first to 4K in the terrain editor and the immediately SAVE the scene so Vue can create the necessary file buffer space and avoid a crash.

Then load (which I will explain further down) a 4K x 4K terrain file that has been converted into a bitmap- like TGA or PSD at Full Blend (100%). Then save that AGAIN immediately.

Finally you are ready to see if your machine has the RAM to get Vue to bump it up one one step to 8K x 8K...

Impressive! Bookmarking.

If your machine can make it- you'll have a stunningly vast landscape with a TERRAGEN type of look. But if not- 4K x 4K is still great. The scene above was rendered with a 4K x 4K terrain of Mt. St. Helens and still has lots of "vast space" with some fog and haze tweaked in- like something you might see Terragen.

I bring up Terragen as it plays an important role in getting QUALITY terrain files into Vue and once you know about the Terragen 2 Vue Method- it opens up LOTS of great Terragen files that are on the Net that you can use in Vue.
(Skull Mountain, the 4K Roman City and many other great Mountain landscapes.) BUT this scene you see of Mt. St. Helens did NOT come from a Terragen file, but from a NED BIL file- which I will explain below...

Explain " bring up Terragen as it plays an important role in getting QUALITY terrain files into Vue and once you know about the Terragen 2 Vue Method- it opens up LOTS of great Terragen files that are on the Net that you can use in Vue." What is this method ? :) TIA

...O.K., first I'll explain the Terragen link- and then direct you to some FREE terrain utilities you can download and add to your Vue Terrain Toolkit. Terragen, as a FREE program, should be one of those toolkit programs.

The first thing to do to get a Terragen file out of Terragen is go to it's Landscape Panel (a little like Vue's Terrain Editor) and export your TER file as a 16 Bit Intel Byte Order RAW file. This is very Important. Do NOT export it as 8 bits - unless your imaging-paint software cannot handle a 16 bit file- then you have no choice! If you are a MAC user- then export as a 16 Bit Motorola Byte-Order RAW file...

O.K.- I just realized that some of you may NOT have software that reads a "RAW" file- so I can't help you there. I use Photoshop- so I will continue with that process in the meantime. Photoshop 7 and 8 reads 16 bit files- and I think several other Paint apps do also- but I don't use them to test this all out...

ALSO- I always RESIZE all these Terragen TER files up to 4K by 4K (4097 x 4097) and then EXPORT these RAW files. The biggest RAW file you can get out of Terragen the BETTER looking your VUE Terrain scene is going to look "space-wise" (more Terragenish).

Do you need the registered version of Terragne to export a 4k by 4k terrain? I though the free version was limited to 512kx512.

Now- Here's what the RAW file IMPORT dialog in Photoshop 8 looks like. Make SURE you are clicking the buttons for 16 BIT and IBM PC (or MAC) and use the other numbers you see in this import panel.

Hopefully Non-Photoshop users will have a similiar dialog panel in their app allowing the same steps...

I have the registered version of Terragen. But I believe that limit only applies to rendering size- NOT export functionality- but I don't know for sure. I think exporting is not something Terragen restricts- but I haven't tested that myself.

Here's the dialog in Photoshop 8- more important steps-

1. I would recommend all editing be done in the 16 bit RAW state- including cropping and/or resizing to a PERFECT 4097 x 4097 square. Often DEMS and TER files are not perfect squares.

2. You should then convert the file FIRST to a an RGB Color file from Grayscale, and THEN convert it to an 8 bit RGB Color file. This is because I have found that VUE will create "stair cases" on 16 bit Grayscale or Color files (I have tried TGA and PSD as imports in the Vue Terrain Editor). Vue needs to impliment a better 16 bit IMPORT function into the Terrain Editor. This should NOT be hard to do as Vue already handles 48 bit rendering, HDRI-IBL etc.

Converting in Photoshop creates a smoothing of the data- but still looks very good- but TRUE 16 bits -like what Terragen does- would be better. In fact- the TER file is an "open" format and Vue could add this to their file import set I would hope...

Here's what the "stair case" effect looks like in Vue. On a MEGA Terrain it is much less noticable- but on smaller terrains it is VERY noticable.

O.K.- WHY NOT use DEMS? There are lots of them on the NET, etc. Well- they work o.k.- but to my own mind- importing a BITMAP of a Terrain looks MUCH BETTER. Plus, you have the options of using Image Editing features on it like Resize, Image Grayscale Levels and Unsharp Masking (I don't recommend Unsharp Masking on anything other than MEGA 4K Terrain Bitmaps as it can create unwanted SPIKES in smaller terrains.)

In fact- you still might want to hit the Fluvial, Thermal, etc. buttons once on an imported 4K Terrain to make it slightly NEATER looking. But too much and it will start to change its shape...

Attached Link: http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~jslayton/terrain.html

On to Toolkits-

Here's mine currently. All are FREE except VistaPro. You don't need VistaPro for these above operations- but I keep it around since I started with VP back in the late 80's with MS-DOS.

The most Powerful of the free terrain tools in MICRODEM. It is a bit complicated but for basic file conversions you don't really need to know how the program works. Reading the HELP files however is a GREAT education in the What's- What in Digital Mapping and Terrain file formats. The handy blue HTML link shows where to get ALL these programs...

MICRODEM

http://www.usna.edu/Users/oceano/pguth/website/microdem.htm

WILBUR is my second favorite, because like MICRODEM, it reads NED BIL files (I will explain further down).

http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~jslayton/wilbur.html

3DEM is my third in use.

http://www.visualizationsoftware.com/3dem.html

READ the help files-manuals with these programs and you will get a great education in digital mapping, terrain data manipulation, etc. But their PRIMARY function is to act as FILE CONVERSION UTILS as there a a LOT of terrain formats and it DOES get very confusing for newbies.

O.K. so WHAT are NED BIL files and why are they so great?

Well, for many years the DEMs that were available were primarly all 30 Meter in resolution. And then a few years back the much better 10 Meter resolution dems became available. The difference is AMAZING! But the file sizes are obviously about 3 times (or more) bigger.

And then the guys that do this stuff for the US Govt. came out with the NED format- which are SEAMLESS terrain chunks- saving LOTS of problems in matching up terrains side-by-side- especially nice when you are doing something like the Grand Canyon. But of course NED files can be HUGE (and I mean HUGE!) One method to make them smaller is storing them in Binary format- one being the BIL format. Still HUGE, but more managable.

MICRODEM can read HUGE 1 gigabtye NED BIL files that even WILBUR will choke on. And Microdem can be used to slice these NED's up into smaller sections and saved out. THIS is where my Mt. St. Helen's file came from- a HUGE chunk of Western Washington State where I zero'ed in on. You can get chunks of Arizona and save out the Grand Canyon- or UTAH chunks and save out Monument Valley or Bryce Canyon. The resolution you will get is well worth the effort if you like VAST TERRAGEN type renders.

Of Course- you can also find a lot of these files already in TER format- which is why that is another very good option for getting near-ready-to-use terrain data- following the Terragen--2-Vue Method...

Attached Link: http://www.sector14.net/~curt/ned/

O.k.- and one more thing- now that you know how great 10 meter data can look- take a look at the FUTURE in ULTRA HI-REZ DEM data gathered using LIDAR- a type of high resolution radar mapping done by aircraft.

The link here explains the steps in resolution and leads down the page to the INCREDIBLE NED 1/9 Arcsecond file of Mt. St. Helens in a 106.8 MB BIL file. The accuracy of this data of Mt. St. Helens is an INCREDIBLE 30 centimeters horizontally by 15 centimeters vertically!

Attached Link: http://www.terrasource.net

One last post here- this shows WILBUR and it's TERRAGEN export dialog. Both WILBUR and 3DEM can export Terragen files. I've found that WILBUR's is better- plus offers a re-size option if you want to go straight out to a 4K x 4K file.

However- I believe Terragen still does the BEST job in its own 16 bit data space as far as re-scaling goes. And again, I would hope that E-ON will impliment a True 16 bit data import function into the Vue Terrain Editor and perhaps even have a direct TER file import.

Above is the link to MASSIVE amounts of Terragen data and info which leads to where to find TER files- if you don't already know where and what they are.

...O.K. - One more post here... After reading what I have posted some people may still not understand this process clearly- so as an exercise- try this: Let's say you are anxious and ready to try and load and render the highly detailed LIDAR image of Mt.Saint Helens noted above. It's a 106MB NED file in BIL format. 1. Open 3DEM. It reads BIL files. Open the downloaded BIL and then SAVE IT as a TER file. 3DEM in this particular case will resample and create the biggest TER file it can, which is 4097x4097. 2.Load this new TER file in Terragen. Follow the 16 bit RAW file export proceedure. 3. Load the exported 16 bit RAW file in Photoshop (or whatever you have that reads 16 bit RAW files. If you don't have software that supports 16 bit files you will need to export it from Terragen as an 8 bit RAW file- and hopefully your app will read that.) 4. In Photoshop do the conversion steps to an RGB file- doing first the conversion to RGB, and then the conversion to 8 bits. This should give you the best re-sample possible. Save the RGB file as a PSD or TGA file. Vue can read either one. (But it will not correctly read a 16 bit Grayscale or RGB TGA or PSD. It WILL READ IT- but not make the best 16 bit to 8 bit data conversion the way Photoshop does.) 5. Create your 4097 x 4097 terrain in Vue and then load in the 4097 x 4097 PSD or TGA at 100% blend. Voila! You have "Instant Hi-Rez Mt. Saint Helens at the highest resolution available to the public" in a Vue MEGA Terrain! Be SURE to save all this before any radical lighting or material effects (like eco-terrains) or you will surely crash Vue immediately. Vue operates much better from a SAVED scene file. One more tip: I have found that a Volumetric atmosphere will immediately crash Vue with a terrain like this. I would stick with something like GI. But Volumetric lights are o.k. from my experience...

Thanks for this - it's all interesting stuff. I've been using the FEO plug-in to get Terragen data into Vue for a while now, but although good it's not perfect. Downloading the 1/9 second data file now - there goes the weekend!! :-)

Veritas777 - Thank you so much for this detailed tutorial and all the links.

Attached Link: http://koti.mbnet.fi/pkl/tg/TerraConv.htm

Wow! Lots to still learn and find out about. I haven't tried the FEO plug-in. I'll go look for it. In the meantime, I just discovered TerraConv! "TerraConv is a freeware program for converting Terragen terrain files into image file format readable by image editing programs, and image files back to terrain files. Supports 16 bit color depth, so you will not lose any altitude resolution in the conversion process." This should be a BIG help to everyone- especially those who cannot import 16 Bit RAW files. I haven't tried it yet as I'm downloading TerraConv now...

I've been testing this TerraConv software by Pauli Lindgren and it is an EXCELLENT ADDITION as Terrain ToolKit! His conversions are crystal clean and the software also supports GeoTIFF and PGM in 16 bits- and even supports 32 bit HDR Grayscale and 48 bit Color! Amazing. Having the 16 Bit PGM read-write and 16 Bit TIF read-writes is incredibly useful for terrain data conversions!

Yeah Vue badly needs a more widely supported 16 bit import format. Have you tried using Vue's DEM import and exporting from MicroDEM or 3DEM into said format? That ought to maintain better accuracy. Quite frankly 1/9 data is kind of useless to work with if you're going to be exporting to an 8 bit format. The additional detail will be lost. - Oshyan

Yes, I've tried quite a few methods. That's why I settled on the 16 bit to 8 bit conversion via Photoshop. You get the most resolution out of the 16 bit data as is reasonably possible. Obviously, converting a huge 106 MB BIL to a 4K x 4K file is going to to sample down a lot of data- but the details are still extremely good- way better than sampling a 10 meter even. But 10 meter is still way better than 30 meter, etc. I'm trying to reach those people out there who have been trying to use the widely available 30 meter data and not getting good looking terrains in Vue. I would bet a number of people still load a 256 terrain in Vue and add in a higher rez TIF- and then rez THAT up to 1024 or something- not realizing they are losing tons of detail right there. Loading 4097x4097 terrain data AFTER resizing to 4097x4097 in Vue gives you the best possible data resolution. I have gone up to 8K (as mentioned above) but I can no longer open the Terrain Editor in Vue AGAIN once I have closed it. This is also why I would like to see E-On support the 16 bit TER format. Following the specs on this Open File Format would lead to CLEAN 16 Bit Terrain data in Vue without the Staircasing effects. That's why currently even importing 16 bit TGA or TIF into Vue only results in Vue converting the great 65,536 levels of gray-scale detail into just 255 levels (8-Bit). Obviously there would be a STUNNING DIFFERENCE in detail with a true 16 bit TER import. Again I would like to suggest people try the TerraConv software- it provides another great terrain data conversion and import process into Vue- and saves the RAW export-import steps as shown above in this thread. I am hoping that once Vue users better understand these data issues that they will ask E-On to ADD 16 bit TER file import as an option- OR- at least a TRUE 16 bit TIF or PGM import. BRYCE has added PGM as an import option since Bryce 5. However- I don't know if it actually supports 16 bits since I haven't tried it in B5.

I've been using a program called TerraPainter to bring Terragen files into Vue for years. It converts to bitmap and the terrains can be modified by its paint program. You can also use the paint program to create basic terrains. Easy, and free. www.kokpeter.dds.nl/TerraPainter/index.htm

Sounds like a great method for bringing in Terragen files, but I'd have to agree with JavaJones that the direct import of the DEM files from the seamless USGS site using 3dem or microdem is definately the better (and far easier) alternative for real world locations. I've been doing it with Professional and Infinate for a while now with no problems or loss of data (other than the massive memory required as you mentioned).

Attached Link: http://www.shadedrelief.com/drape/index.html

The reason I like the bitmap approach is that I have much better control over the data. My experience with importing DEMs into Vue is that they have a HUGELY exaggerated jump in vertical scale. You have to completely then GUESS at what the real vertical scale should be. But I'm not a GIS Professional- I do these terrains for artistic reproductions (which most people here probably do- one terrain at a time.) I can see that by importing multiple DEMs that you could build up a larger terrain set- but then they would still all be wildly out of vertical scale- from my experience. The concept of importing tiled BITMAPS would work better- as from my experience bitmaps don't have the radical vertical scale that DEMs have when imported. I would sure like to know how you get around that problem... What would be GREAT I think is something like a GeoTIFF which can be accurately draped with a satellite image (Landsat, etc.) I've seen the ShadedRelief.Com website and I would like to do the same thing in Vue (see link). Tom Patterson, U.S. National Park Service, also seems to be a fan of using imported bitmaps (PGM) as the way to go about this, rather than the DEM import. Even in MicroDEM the author is not wild about the variations in DEM scales. Seamless NED is the best way- but are you converting it back to a DEM?

Very interesting thread. Looking forward to a chance to explore it further!

If vertical scaling is the only reason you're using bitmap conversion - which inherently loses the proper scaling of the terrain anyway - then why not just rescale in Vue? Neither method is apparently giving you the correct scale (although Vue should be drawing correct scaling from a DEM import as that data is included, unlike a bitmap import), so I don't see why either has advantages in that regard, except that apparently bitmap import just has a lower scale by default, which I guess looks more correct to you. But again I don't see why you couldn't just scale it in Vue, and save the loss of accuracy. - Oshyan

Unfortunately you guys are both right that Vue doesn't import the correct scale for dem import, but based on looking at the two renders Veritas attached, the vertical scale is exaggerated with the bitmap import as well (for a real photo of mt. st. helens as a reference see my latest post in my gallery). Vue's never been intended as an accurate software, which is a shame because it is starting to be used by more and more people for visualization as a cheap easy to learn renderer. Another point I wanted to make is that you don't have to do multi-part import using Vue 5 Infinate (or even Vue 4 Professional) the dem import size is limited only by your computers processing power, I have successfully imported the msh full 3 meter res terrain all by itself using Vue 4 Professional, the only reason I imported in my last render of st. helens as a multi-part is I wasn't aware at the time that they'd had an unlisted limitation in the Esprit lineup (which was what I have at home) that limits terrain size imports. That feature isn't limited in the Infinate/Pro version. It also allows me to place more detailed procedural terrains or higher res textures on the chunks closer to the camera rather than being stuck with one resolution texture for the whole thing (what looks good up close tends to tile at a distance and what looks good at a distance pixelates close up). I second what Veritas said that it would be nice to be able to do the drapes, it actually is possible right now but requires a lot of tweaking of both the terrain you're importing as well as the image you have to get both to line up. I've played with it a little but trying to find data that stretches where I need it is proving to be difficult, I'm trying to assemble something from the landsat data but I just don't seem to have enough time anymore to do this as much :)

Oh, just thought I'd point out too, Veritas, your terrain is mirrored the wrong way, Spirit Lake is to the east of Mt. St helens, the crater is open to the north, just mirror your bitmap horizontally (left becomes right) and you should be good to go.

On the mirroring - yes I have found that it's a strange thing that WILBUR does- flips the bitmap over. I actually noticed that problem when I started on the Big Island (see post at top) about a week ago. I am actually extremely familiar with the Big Island- so noticed that right away. But with MSH- I never attempted to get the correct scale- in my renders I usually exaggerate the vertical scale anyway as it looks more dramatic. It's just that VUE WILDLY exaggerates the vertical scale insanely when you load a DEM. I have a theory that it is because VUE is converting the 16 bit data to 8 bit and the loss in steps causes the wild increase in scale. (?) Even (see new thread at top) Tom Patterson uses some moderate terrain exaggeration for illustration purposes. But thanks for noting the MSH FLIP- I will re-do it- or maybe just FLIP the render (heh!). Glad to have some good, constructive comments!

Yeah, I know what you mean about the exaggeration, I've seen it done a few times by various companies but haven't been too fond of it myself, sometimes it's really necessary but other times it just ends up way overblown. As for the importing, I've found that sometimes it's vastly overscaled and in the case of my mt. st. helens one is actually underscaled, but my mt. st. helens one is also the full res 8000 pixels square (plus or minus) chunk that's available for that area (no scaling down at all), so it has a large variation in the terrain elevations. Just thought I'd share a render I'd done using the 3 meter MSH terrain (split into chunks) showing the texturing and in particular how this allows ecosystems to be applied in limited use to a large scale dem (by applying it only to the foreground quadrant, which allows much tighter and manageable control of system resources. Thanks for all the links and tutorials, it's nice to know there's multiple possibilities should one method not work (which we all know happens more than we'd like).

A really beautiful image- I especially like the clouds (I'm a big cloud fan and have a future rant planned about them). Is that a photo, or? Yes, splitting the DEM's into three sections is ideal for doing Eco-Systems. My thoughts exactly! Could you imagine a 8K x 8K Eco-Terrain with 81 Billion Fir Trees? (Well- after 64 bit Windows finally comes out and gets debugged- and "Vue 7 Beyond Infinity" comes out, we will probably see it!) Again- beautiful- excellent lighting and terrain materials are really great.

Unfortunately for Vue that is a cloud photo, I took it out my backyard last year with a 6 mp camera, so it looks really good even at the large render size I did for the whole image (the bottom detail shot is a crop of the original full render size). Sadly Vue has always been lacking in realistic looking 3 dimensional clouds and I think at this point it's the number one requested feature from Vue users, not sure why e-on hasn't really seemed to listen as Terragen 2 is proving that it can be done (I've seen some amazing renders by some of the alpha testers posted on this site) Oh god, the horror! My terrain is actually split up into between 12 and 16 chunks and I think 81 billion might actually be a lowball figure for what this terrain as a whole would generate if you tried to fully forest it even at just the lower elevations. Might have to wait till Vue 8 (Ultima Infinitesmal Special Edition at this rate :) But that would truly be a sight to behold, a before and after shot of MSH with eco trees all over the place for the before would be amazing. Thanks, I keep going back and forth on whether or not to post it to the galleries, as I could never actually post it full size but it's even more breathtaking the larger it gets due to the eco-trees and the sense of scale they help provide.

HEH! Well I see that Martian Manhunter is already selling the MSH Terrain data in the Renderosity Store. Check my above conversation with Chipp Walters (in Terrain Draping-Bumping thread)-- I think that there is a market for pre-draped terrains for Bryce, Vue and Terragen users. For Hi-REZ terrain lovers, could be the next best thing to a near Nude Vicky in a G-String! (I'm talking from a selling point of view of course).

So glad that I was pointed to this article as a crashing Vue was exactly the problem I was having.