Yesterday I stumbled about the E-on Website and had a look at Vue5infinite (shame on me g). I didn't anticipate that much but at the numerous features my jaw really dropped. Wonderful and stunning functions like the eco systems, global illumination and radiosity, absolute control, im- and export of nearly everything and many, many things more - absolutely breathtaking. Ok, 600 Euro are quite a lot, but it seems that it's worth of it. Then I thougt about our beloved Bryce and the things we are looking foreward to: A better compability of Bryce with Poser including DAZ Studio in the main, other features seem not so important. Doesn't it look a bit (not to say: really) poor compared with other programs??? Meanwhile I got the fear that Bryce will become more and more an offset of Poser. Yeah, ok, nice and I really appreciate it - but I want more than a perfect import of Poser figures! If the developement with Bryce will go on like it goes in the moment, Bryce will get something like these eco systems in 10 years (if it ever will happen), not to mention all the other useful things I'd desperately like to have. Sad to say, but tell me one good reason (except the price) why not moving to Vue? We are not amused! ;)

I have to admit that I'm not really looking forward to better integration with poser and/or D|S. It's just not enough for me. If that was the only benefit, then I wouldn't bother upgrading. ANd I don't want to use something that's turned into a D|S plugin. What I want [in 6.0] is faster renders, better lighting options (GI, HDRI etc), faster renders, a built in modeller and faster renders.

You're nuts!

100% Poser compatibility is what Bryce NEEDS to survive.

Note I said "Poser" compatibility. To hell with "Studio" because Studio, at this precise moment in time, is a non-entity compared to Poser (like it or not).

As far as I'm concerned, DAZ could be one of two things:

1 - They're idiots.
2 - They're just leading the competition into "thinking" they're idiots.

I hope it's number 2.

Yes, of course there are other features that would be cool to have in Bryce. And yes, of course there are 101 little tweaks that'd make our life a whole lot easier.

Phil's comment was interesting, and I'm glad he made it because I want to use him as an example of the sort of person DAZ should ignore if they want Bryce to survive.
(Master Drawbridge - come to the front, and stand still while I demonstrate).

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls...
cough

DAZ have at their disposal, a most impressive marketing weapon, that weapon is known as Studio. The competitor has no such weapon. This situation holds the seed to a mighty impressive come-back for Bryce if handled wisely.

SITUATION 1: (the wrong way)

VUE SPEC:

Fully Poser compatible.

BRYCE6 SPEC:

Fully Studio compatible.

SITUATION 2: (the right way)

VUE SPEC:

Fully Poser compatible.

BRYCE6 SPEC:

Fully Poser compatible.
Fully Studio compatible.

Now, apart from the obvious - how many of you actually saw the REAL hidden sting for VUE.

Well, not only would DAZ have the potential to pull on Posers HUGE user-base, it would ALSO have it's current Studio user-base. And there's more, because Bryce would start to regain the user-base it's losing to it's competitor.

And of course, we shouldn't forget that DAZ actually OWN Studio, whereas it's competitor has no such weapon. We have a battle of two companies, one with a weapon and one without. If DAZ can't sort it out when they're in such a powerful position - then word's escape me.

Master Drawbridge you may sit again and I hope the rest of the class can see what is staring you all in the face.

I will say to anyone in doubt to look again at the two situations - and remember this:

One of them >>>WILL<<< happen - so which would you prefer huh?

Len.
(Marketing man)

EDIT:
BTW, we are going to be seeing more and more of these types of threads if DAZ don't get their ass into gear sometime soon.

Message edited on: 10/17/2005 13:45

thank you for your put down. please report to the IRC channel.

Let the grinding of Len's bones begin.......

Thank you so much for calling me nuts. Always gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. You're right of course. DAZ should ignore me and keep the slow render engine, keep the lighting the same and rely on third party modellers. You twisted my thoughts. I've re-read my post and I still stand by every single word. I don't care how much Bryce is integrated with poser and D|S. It's not an issue for me either way. What is an issue is speed and quality of renders. Without the render engine improvements, "I" have no reason to upgrade. As a lighting guru, you of all people should appreciate that the lighting and render engine is a major concern here. Ofcourse, you're a marketing guru too as shown with your exploits of the previous year, and I claim to know nothing of marketing. I care not of such things, I just want a program that works well and produces good fast renders. If that's Bryce, which I really do hope, then I'll be very happy. If it's another ap, then cest la vie. If Bryce degenerates into something to please the rainbow people, then that's fair enough too and it may make DAZ some money. But it's not the program I love and it's not a program I need.

Right. No. Here is the deal. Poser owns the lion's share of character modelling. You make virtual people. You buy virtual clothes for these virtual people. You buy stupid and dubiously sexual toys for virtual people. You spend money playing virtual barbie dress-up. Which is fine, if you think that it's a solution to placing characters into a 3D scene. DAZ does 3D content, fine. D|S was a mistake for them, whatever. They went even further in purchasing Bryce and thinking that the time tested hobbyist app will help them cash in. As in: Want a temple, get a vickie with a sword while you're at it. For now, they're not doing great, integrating D|S into Bryce is the sound and logical path, if two wrongs make a right. They're playing dice with our patience and our money. Again, fine, if Bryce 6 is worth the wait. There's no hidden real sting for vue or whatever. they're two apps being taken into two completely different directions. You can't call Vue5 Infinite a hobbyist market tool. All we can hope for is for this decade-old software to finally grow some balls, i.e. GI, HDRI, some realistic presets, better material lab and better tree lab, perhaps even innovate. And if all Poser and D|S wankers who neve did a render in their lives for the sake of 3D could be shot, I'd be happy too, but that's not gonna happen either, so.. Thanks, drac

Disclaimer: There are Poser artists out there in great numbers who have done renders for the sake of 3D, and not just for the virtual tit. Just so I don't get fille'ed. Be nice to each other, you bastards.

Hmmmmmmmmm, I was going to say, "dont shoot me" but, as you mentioned in your next message all I can say is " I have parents! LOL.......This topic will go on and on until Bryce 6 comes out or gets sold because of a Poser/Studio slump in sales. :)

LOL ! I'm just so not going here....Big time!

Message edited on: 10/17/2005 18:00

Here is the offial 'play nice' posting, pum. So, play nice. AgentSmith

Hmmm, AS posted the "play nice" post before I got here. Hmmm, I'll try.

Yoro said: Sad to say, but tell me one good reason (except the price) why not moving to Vue? The price. And the fact that what you read was E-on's promo material. There have been many complaints about thoose amazing features not living up to the hype.

DAZ bought Bryce, among other reasons, to make 3D easy and accessible. This has been their operating strategy since I stumbled across them, and it's held out over time. Despite what some say. Bryce is cheap, powerful, fun and easy to use. Many people are introduced to 3D thru Bryce, or poser which doesn't count because 98% of poser pics are a person in front of a photo, not real 3D. Many, many people have spent years honing their artistic talents with Bryce before moving on to "pro" apps. Many of them still return to Bryce from time to time, because it's enjoyable.

"To bring 3D to the masses!" Despite having had only one, controversial, half-upgrade in all these years, despite being severely out featured, despite running on decade old code, Bryce still has this strong of a user base, and this forum, the Bryster's Forum, the second most popular forum here on 'osity. Hands down the friendliest 3D forum anywhere, anytime, anyhow.

And here's something to think about. That ultra-mega-click-a-button-have-a-forest-with-trees-and-scrub-and-a-stream-with-a-waterfall, $600 app that Bryce "had better catch up with, or else, but don't cost $600 for heavens sake", just released a stripped down, feature bare, $100 version. Why? Surely not to compete with Bryce?

D|S integration? Right now it's tacked on. When DAZ gets it fully integrated, I'd like to think it'll be like the disc primitive, never used, but there if its needed. I still use poser for most of my figure work, but when you need 40 skeletons in a Bryce scene, you can't beat slapping them in from D|S. As I am forced by my own laziness into using D|S more, I'll become more comfortable with it's interface, and it could possibly replace poser in my workflow.

Bryce as a poser offset? One of the determining factors of DAZ's decision to purchase Bryce was the fact that a huge number of poser users, use Bryce for rendering, and a huge number of Bryce users get a large amount of their scene content from poser. The two programs have been used together since the get go, what DAZ is doing, is to simplify the process using their own app. You will notice the Studio button in Bryce, Studio only has a Bryce button if it was launched from Bryce. Thats called a one way street.

100 minor upgrades/improvements, 2 major changes, 6 million complaints. Hey DAZ, thanks for fixing it so that imported objects come in at the right size. Thanks for the extra preview modes. Thanks for the sometimes faster renders, and the huge Studio button. Thanks for making it take a double-click to stop a render. And thanks for the effort you've put into getting Bryce back in the game, because the user base couldnt hold it up forever.

If nothing else, Bryce 5.5 and Studio 1 have forced the other players in 'hobbyist' level 3D, to rethink and re-examine their position. Curious Labs now sees, on the horizon, the first competitor for its poser market, ever. E-on and he others are coming to realize the vastness of the 'hobbiest' market. They might have the features for now, but D|S is free, and Bryce is inexpensive, and DAZ has the brand recognition and market share. "Good enough to get it done."

Pumeco - Hard to believe, but some of what you said, I agree with somewhat.

Master Phil - just wanted to call you that. Oh, you're right, pessimistic, but right.

Drac - drac, drac...

AS - see, ok so far.

Yoro - you are an amazing artist. You would no doubt be an amazing artist with whatever app you choose to use. No one can tell you what app is best for you. To paraphrase something Master Phil once said, "Sad as it is, it's possible you've outgrown Bryce." Of course, hes still here.

Play Nice - I was talking to pumeco, actually. (I should have fully spelled out their name, lol) But, very well stated Carl, what you have said, about Bryce/Daz/Studio/Etc. If you dig deep into the forum here, you find these same anxious threads EVERY time something about Bryce changed. We all are concerned over our program. :o) AS

Yoro, you forget to mention the new Vue prog. "Vue Easel" for 79 USD; they included Glob. Ill. in that package.

AFAIK "Vue Easel" is heavily crippled in render size, only about 5 Megapixel max. There are some other issues (like being a memory hog even worse than Poser) which I do not remember atm...

4be

xenic101, "Thanks for making it take a double-click to stop a render." Lucky old you, it takes me 20 or 30 clicks to stop a ^&&&*&^!! render once it's started! I know the things I want for Bryce6 are probably impossible due to it's being a (insert correct name, that I've forgotten might be ray or pov or something tracer) type of renderer. Doesn't stop me WANTING faster renders - especially with decent shadows. I mean! Stick soft shadows on and you might as well go on holiday while the scene sits there while a white line is definitely NOT moving, for days on end. (sob!) um... what's "poser"? Oh yes, that's the thing with all the bald plastic naked manekins in it... Studio? Same thing, except you just HAVE to have Studio in order to open it load a model and then shut it to get back to Bryce - if you bought the model... whatever. I promise this is me being nice, I'm sure I've got a temperature now - frustration can do that to you when you're boiling over. It's caused by being poor, you know. I couldn't afford Vue - whether it works to spec or not, so I'm stuck with what I can afford... whether it works to spec or not... Waffling, sorry...

I agree with what drawbridgep said would be nice to have in bryce. I also think it would be great to have poser but at the cost of it in AUD it will be a long time before i can afford it. I'm glad some company(if i may call them this) had the heart to bring out a program(for free) that i can use for the poser models/props and what ever. One thing i would like to see though and i know this is going backwards with things, it would have been nice if DAZ left D|S and Bryce the way they were. What i mean is two seperate programs for two different things instead of making one, to frase a term here, like a plugin for the other. Now don't get me wrong everyone, i am happy with what i have but i liked it better when i could do a scene in bryce, save it then go over to D|S and use that for the poser model until i was ready to export and then import it to bryce, which by the way i still do at the best of times. Thanks go to those at DAZ for what they have/are doing for those in the 3d world. I just hope when Bryce 6 comes out you take into account a few things your customers are/have said or you may find them switching to another program. CD (Won't bite unless agrovated)

QUOTE:
"As a lighting guru, you of all people should appreciate that the lighting and render engine is a major concern here."

• Yes, you're right. I'd love to see an overhaul of the render engine, but that comes second to full Poser campatibility. The reason being, such an ability will be the most important feature to the "majority" of users, and therefore shift the most units for DAZ.

QUOTE:
"Ofcourse, you're a marketing guru too as shown with your exploits of the previous year, and I claim to know nothing of marketing."

• DAZ need to step back, REALLY open-up, do a survey, and give us 'at least' the TOP TWO most requested features (and surprise surprise, guess what they'd probably be?).

QUOTE:
"There's no hidden real sting for vue or whatever. they're two apps being taken into two completely different directions. You can't call Vue5 Infinite a hobbyist market tool."

• Wrong, these two products ARE competitors, and the label of ANY app being either "Hobbyist" or "Professional" is not worth the CD-cover or box it's printed on. The artist using the app, is the only deciding factor - based on their ability.

QUOTE:
"Play Nice - I was talking to pumeco, actually. (I should have fully spelled out their name, lol)"

• So it's only pumeco that has to play nice? Hmmm well...not to worry sir. pumeco's on it's 'final' warning as far as I'm aware, so I'll be careful not to start a shit-storm :-D

DISCLAIMER:
pumeco is NOT anti: DAZ/BRYCE/STUDIO/E-ON/VUE/CL/POSER (all of which are cool).
This is just constructive discussion.

Len.
(BTW, "virtual-tit" makes the 3D-world go round - don't "knock" it)
(Pun intended)

The best couple features they could give us...plug-in with an SDK and scripting capabilities. That would put a LOT into the hands of the users. Imho. AS