If E-Frontier built Poser 8 from the ground up and all the current problems we bitch and moan about were fixed... would you be willing to fork up the extra bucks for a super Poser? Is it financially smart for efrontier to invest money into that avenue? How much more would you be willing to spend for the Dream Poser version?

Must see specs list and price range first, then can decide

And way waiting for Poser 8? I want the fixes and better code in version 7.

It won't be a Poser 8 God built The World in six days. The seventh he rest e-frontier built Poser in six versions. The seventh it died muahahahah

A e-frontier product without bugs, problems, errors, etc.? Pure fantasy...

FINAL fantasy, I think...

show me a software without bugs...

e-frontier didn't write Posser.

I don't know of a single piece of software that was not racked with bugs.

Attached Link: http://www.fotoonz.com

With this stuff fixed, I'd buy it. An extra hobby now is sorting library files when I should be creating. My time is worth that money.

I already thought I did with Poser 5 and Poser 6. I hate both and deleted them. I can't stand to fight softwear. I'm almost 63, and guess I'll just stick to Poser PP. They took a easy program and made it so hard.

I think a 50% increase in price would likly loose me. At that point it would become a purely financial decision.

The trouble is going to be 64-bit Windows. There's going to have to be a lot done to let Poser take advantage of that, and if it doesn't it'll become no more than a subsidiary tool in the professional market, while the amateurs will start to bitch about how their expensive new hardware is stuck with a program that can only use a single processor core. We do at least have an initial step made. Poser can already do a partial render. But the memory management needed to access the correct data to render two segments in parallel, that's a new trick. Poser will definitely need more RAM.

Lose the silly interface, fix the persistent bugs, make sure its compatible with V4. "Then let's talk."

The problem is that any such program would be Poser 8 in name only. A complete re-write means a completely new program, and a completely new set of bugs... oops, I mean "issues".

It's not just that writing software is hard - it's that TESTING software is hard, and approaches impossibility for something as complex as Poser. How many bugs do you encounter in MS Paint? Not too many, but then what can you do with it? Poser's user base not only stretches the limits of what the software can do, they are constantly hacking at every piece of the software to make it do things that could never be anticipated (therefore tested) by the developer. This situation is not unique to Poser - it affects software generally, from simple programs to apps costing thousands of dollars. Even open source software is hardly bug-free, it's just that he bugs (theoretically) get found and fixed more quickly.

That new application at N-Sided (Quidam) should be an interesting experiment in what Poser would look like if written completely from scratch. It's essentially a Poser work-alike. But they have no backwards-compatibility to worry about, no user base who has invested thousands of $$$ in existing content, plus they have the benefits of all the other work that has been done in the field in recent years. DAZ studio could be considered another such experiment, although backwards compatibility with DAZ's own technology was also a goal for that app.

Note that neither application has the feature set that Poser has, at least currently. Adding a scripting engine to an app can increase the complexity of the project exponentially.

• Jimdoria .^.

Message edited on: 01/10/2006 11:30

Has anyone played Sid Meier's Civilization IV?

The initial release of the game back in October was full of bugs. Patches released since that time have fixed most of the problems. But problems there were.........

If P8...or P7, for that matter....comes out with zero problems -- then e-frontier will have made software history.

I LOVE Civilization IV, however it appears to require much more processing power than Civ III. I have plenty of RAM, good processor and great video card, but can only really play at the lower video settings. That's not a big deal, though. It still looks great at the lowest settings. (At the highest, a single unit turns into multiple units, which is totally unecessary anyway ... it's just eye candy.) There have been lots of tweaks to the game play to keep it lively ... the element of Religion is much more important now ... culture in general is more useful, and trading with other Civs is easier. Unfortunately the Civilopedia isn't as good, but that's fairly minor. I've never experienced any bugs at all. I've only applied whatever the most recent patch is.

I think eventually, e-Frontier is going to have to bite the bullet and completely re-do Poser. It was ridiculous that Poser 6 ran better on old computers with limited RAM than on new computers with lots of RAM.

New features are all well and good, but what I really want is a version of Poser that can take advantage of modern hardware and operating systems.

I don't think they'll be able to raise the price too much. Not when DAZ is giving away D|S.

The question on my mind is "If eF built a new version from the ground up that improved greatly on speed, stability, and memory management issues but was not 100% backwards compatible for all content, would you upgrade?" I would, but I'm aware that a huge part of the community would scream to high heaven over needing to invest in new meshes and all that. It happens every time DAZ releases a premier humanoid mesh ... and then most of the complainers invest in it anyway. :-) I realize this is an extreme scenario and that a "from the ground up" version of Poser would most likely support older content and rigging, but ... what if? Really, until eF tells us anything about P7, we're just speculating and hoping. It seems that our forum discussions don't have much influence, not that I know. I hope not too many people are talking themselves into believing that eF has made promises that they haven't, as happened to some extent with the P6 release.

Why are we all asking about Poser 8? Did e-frontier release Poser 7 and not tell anyone? Before they worry about 64-bit compatability, how about if Poser works with hyperthreading and multiple processors? The other question is how you make a piece of software that has more features, is more complex, and can do more things, but at the same time please people who want to keep the simplicity of the earlier versions? --John

I hope that eF is committed to Poser and truly makes it their own product. The product will never be what it should be if it keeps bouncing between owners. I would assume that that would mean tighter integration with Shade. Also, If I were them, I would be hard pressed to justify keeping FireFly. Even if they're not paying ongoing licensing fees for it (which they may be), they already have a superb render engine from the images I've seen. People would raise hell but I think it would mean a better product in the long run. I would expect that the functionality now achieved through the cloth room, hair room, etc. would also be replaced by their own 3D technology. Ideally, I'd like to see Poser return to its roots as a posing application with the option to plug into Shade for things like advanced materials, dynamics, etc. Poser itself could feature a subset of the render engine, perhaps better morph creation through a subset of the modeling engine, etc. The key is to make it as seamless as possible and allow easy tailoring of the application to fit each individuals needs. If you want the basic Poser, that's all you pay for. Want the advanced render engine, buy that but skip the advanced modeling/rigging or animation if that's not your thing. That seems to be the approach Daz is taking and it makes a lot of sense. The price for the basic package would hopefully remain in the same range.

@xo --

So you're a Civ fan, eh? I've got a good friend that I'll probably be having some multiplayer games with in another month or two. Setting up multiplayer games is largely a matter of people's individual schedules -- and everyone having the time to do it. That can be tough across time-zones. Especially with a long-term game like Civ.

Civ IV offers e-mail multiplay. E-mail play might be a good way to avoid scheduling problems, although it seems to me that an e-mail game of Civ might go on for six months or more.

As for Civ IV's bugs: the problems have hit some people a lot harder than others. On Amazon, the Civ IV reviews are sharply divided between five-star praises and one-to-two star slams ((for some reason, that situation creates a strong impression of dvu........)). Praise or slam -- it all seems to depend upon how badly each individual was affected by the bugs.

Really, until eF tells us anything about P7, we're just speculating and hoping.

Yep. What you said.

It seems that our forum discussions don't have much influence, not that I know.

I've sometimes wondered about that myself -- just how much impact do the forums actually have on companies like eF? I doubt that they ignore the forums completely. But they might not put much weight on what they find here. I wouldn't. After all: it's the unhappy that tend to vocalize a lot more than the satisfied do.

All I want is for Poser to work better with other 3D apps--the key to any real 3D software is its ability to integrate with other applications, for example, the last time Poser made a plugin to work with Cinema 4D was about 5 years, 2 versions and one (Mac) operating system ago. 3D animators use a number of programs in concert, utilizing each one for its strengths. Nobody does out-of-the-box human figures better than Poser/Daz--you'd think they'd want to build on that.--T

Uh-oh, here we go again... Understood thoughts:- "Poser doesn't work like those $100,000 apps do! Poser must be crap! Why doesn't eF upgrade their software to maximal potential and release it all to us for free?" C'mon folks, get real. Poser has always been buggy and flawed. We all know that. It's also very cheap, compared to the alternatives. Creating bug-free software (in this environment)is virtually impossible unless you have.. a) a release schedule that numbers in decades, b) a very large team of dedicated testers, c) a very large and varied team of programmers to correct the problems detected, d) an enormous budget. So what do you want? A somewhat flawed yet usable prgram for your masterpieces that you can afford? Or a superb, flawless, program which does everything that Poser can do (but better) which you can't afford? Answers on a postcard please.. Cheers, Diolma

I don't think anyone's demanding that software be bug-free. That would be impossible.

"I don't think anyone's demanding that software be bug-free. That would be impossible." Agreed. It's the level of "bug-freeness" that seems to be in question Less bugs = more cost... (Actually it IS posiible to produce bug-free programs - but that takes an awful lot of time and some very sophisticated software to check for the problems..) Cheers, Diolma

BTW - GlowWorm might provide some serious help with at least one type of Poser bug......uh, I mean issue:

I haven't finished testing it adequately yet, but so far GlowWorm looks like it just might be a work-around for many of Poser's rendering memory issues. Not to mention that GlowWorm is fufilling its intended purpose of providing FAR greater power over my renders.

I'll have to put GlowWorm through some more paces before I'll swear by it as a render-memory solution. But things looks promising.

It's the level of "bug-freeness" that seems to be in question

I don't think that's really the question. The question is whether we'd be willing to pay more if eF re-wrote Poser from the ground up. As opposed to paying a smaller amount for another patch on what's basically a 10-year-old Mac program.

The issue isn't really bugs. Yes, a rewrite could fix some bugs that have been intractable, like Poser's memory issues. But obviously, a complete rewrite would also introduce new bugs.

Personally, I think eF will eventually have to rewrite Poser from the ground up. They can't keep patching a Windows 95-era program forever. D|S will leave them in the dust. They need to be able to take advantage of hyperthreading, modern RAM, and yes, 64-bit OSes.

I suspect DAZ is facing a similar problem with Bryce. They found they couldn't make the improvements they'd hoped, without a complete rewrite.

"show me a software without bugs..." MS Word MS Excel MS Access Powerpoint Harvard Graphics Bryce 4 Photoshop Illustrator Vue 4 (after SRs) Painter Pagemaker Corel Draw These are just off the top of my head. There are many more. And, of course, the above only applies to the respective versions I've used, which are many.

Jackson, Whilst you may have had NO PROBLEMS with the above software, trust me, there be BUGS there! I chuckle because you state Vue then put in after SRs. If there were no bugs, you would not need service releases ;) On the question at hand, I think I would be. Poser is old! With new hardware, storage (more than when Poser first arrived) and the fact that the core userbase of Poser is adept at using the software (despite our many misgivings and some never venturing into the hair, clothing and material rooms) and the tweaking of the software (MATs, SkinShaders and Physics and ShaderSpiders and Particles and Glowworms and Wardrobe Wizards and PoseMagic, Apollo Maximus' reportedly cool rigging despite Poser's limitations) I really think if e-Frontier pulled it together and built it, I'd show up.

"there be BUGS there"

Maybe, if you say so. But after years of working with these programs and not having anywhere near the problems I've had with P5 and 6, I'd still say that, comparatively, they are bug-free.

And I agree completely that Poser's main problem is its age. But it was CL--and now EF--who insisted on piling new features on the old engine, a practice known to cause problems with software. Problems, aka, "bugs."

Message edited on: 01/10/2006 18:50

Succumbing.

I'll kick myself later...

would you be willing to fork up the extra bucks for a super Poser?

Is it financially smart for efrontier to invest money into that avenue?

How much more would you be willing to spend for the Dream Poser version

No.
Yes.
It would have to meet my dreams -- not possible, since my dreams conflict with other peoples, as we'll see...

(But well phrased!)
Assuming it's simply a "better" poser -- maybe. Will depend on what it can do for me.
#4 - Cassette, that's just plain wicked :)

#5 - Take a look at their other products. Not a fantasy.
#7 - The original BASIC command used to print "hello world" that most folks learn in grade school, round these parts. More accurate: Show me a piece of software as comlicated as this one that doesn't have bugs...
#10 - Poser 6 does work. Your mileage will vary. (yeah, stole it from someone else, lol).
#11 - what "stuff"?

#12 - They did, to an extent. THat's the price for asking for more stuff. A lot of what was in P6 was asked for around the time they were getting ready to release P4. Indeed -- most of it was, including cloth and hair and materials. But with those extra capabilities comes greater complexity, and less simple enjoyment.
Perhaps a new, sub-version that uses wizards and something could come out down the road. Lord knows they've got the start to it...
#14 - Did you know that the memoery management in Poser 6 is almost the same as in Adobe Photoshop? And did ya know that PS uses extra tricks to get more out of it, essentially cheating the system?
All 64 bit systems currently available allow for 32 program operation. FIve years from now, this will likely be a different case.
#15 - Lose the "silly" interface and they'll lose more customers than they'll gain. Adapt the one they have, and they might get even more. Good thing it's not our choice or decision, huh? As far as making it compatible with V4 -- bah. Should work the other way around.

#16 - well said.

#19 -- Oddly enough, they think the same thing, from what I understand.

#20 - Excellent question. for my answer, see #1.

#21 - How about before they deal with hyperthreading, they wait and see what the result of the lawsuit twixt the largest two chipmakers is, since hyperthreading will only work for about half the market and is known to cause problems with the other half.

As for your other question -- Wizards. Option driven menus that totally reduce the fun of learning the damnable thing and increase the amount of sameness. That or release a "lite" version.

#22 - Note that regardless of owners, the same people have always worked on Poser. Always the same team -- some folks added, but the core team that is writing it is the same one that started it. Thank God for Uli.

Your ideal essentially makes it D|S -- which the presence of now has most likely assured it will never be

When I started a thread like this some time ago, I asked about "stepping" versions - that is, a Basic, advanced, and Pro step -- which is the norm for most of E-Frontier's particular products. THat's more likely, or at least so it seems to me.

#24 - E-frontier has publically stated several times they will not be developing tools for that themselves. If ya want it, go to the makers of the other programs and ask them to.

#30 - Every single one of those programs has bugs - the makers all have (or had) lists of them that were being or are beign worked on (a simple search in the MS KB will pull up about 300 bugs in Word alone). Some of them also have "vulnerabilities" and "exploits" that some idiot decided to go out and find for themselves just to say they can. As you noted in your response #32, however, youhave fewer problems with them. This is, as noted earlier, because, for the most part, you aren't pushing the program to its limits, as we are with poser on a constant and continual basis.

" This is, as noted earlier, because, for the most part, you aren't pushing the program to its limits,"

Ah ynsaen, you haven't changed; you still state your opinion as fact. Sorry, but you're wrong...again. I've pushed most of those programs to the limit and more; had to, I was teaching them and needed to know how far they would go.

And with Poser, you don't even need to push it. You simply have to use it for an hour or two and its defects will begin to surface.

I normally wouldn't have entered this thread but I'm so damned sick of seeing the "all software has bugs" excuse. Tiny problems in programs hardly noticeable to power users and invisible to causaul users are vastly different from corrupting files, freeze-ups, features stop working, etc.

Message edited on: 01/10/2006 20:43

I've had a lot more trouble with bugs in Access than Poser, any version. I develop custom apps for Access databases. Corrupted files, Freezups and features that don't work ... all carry the MS logo. When your client is breathing down your neck and the deadline is passed those bugs in Access are alot more annoying, especially since it cost twice as much as Poser. With all the coding I've done for access I've never altered a database with a text editor. Every single file I feed Poser has been hacked. It's a wonder it can keep it together. Try hacking two JPG's together and see how photoshop feels about it. When you stop to think what we throw at poser every time we open it (Morph injection? MAT-Pose? I didn't see that in the manual any where. Those are hacks.) it's amazing it's as stable as it is.

It's kind of funny to see Microsoft software held up as an example of "bug free" or "nearly bug free" software.

Heeeee.......heeeeeee.........heeeeeeee.......

:D

On the other hand, in the interest of honesty -- I have to admit that Word has never given me the problems that Poser sometimes has. HOWEVER (and this is a BIG 'however'): that's comparing apples to oranges. Word processing, even at its most intense, simply doesn't make the same level of demands on a PC as a 3D app does. Perhaps it might be if you're working on a text the size of War and Peace complete with embedded high-res illustrations throughout. But unless if that's what someone is doing -- IMO the comparison of a Word processor to a 3D app isn't a valid one. Or up against a data base program, or a CAD program.....or even against a 2D graphics program like Photoshop.

In fact, the only comparison that I'd consider to be a valid one would be Poser vs. D|S. And we all know that D|S is unquestionably completely bug-free.

(heeeee........heeeeee........)

Message edited on: 01/10/2006 21:27

"I develop custom apps for Access databases." Hey, so do I! :) Er, I used to anyway. Quit about three years ago. Maybe the newer versions are screwy, but not the ones I used. I think Access 2000 was my last. Anyway, I have some pretty big operations still running fine on the stuff I did back then. No problems; no complaints. Neither have I ever had Pshop freeze on a file. The worst I've had was the "Invalid File Type" message. And maybe if they'd update Poser once in a while it wouldn't need hacks?

"IMO the comparison of a Word processor to a 3D app isn't a valid one. Or up against a data base program, or a CAD program.....or even against a 2D graphics program like Photoshop."

I wasn't making a comparision. The person asked for "software without bugs" and I gave her a list of stuff that--in my experience and comparatively speaking--are bug free. BTW: Maybe it wasn't War and Peace, but I did put together a 256-page operations manual in Word. It contains many hi-res photos, illustrations, graphs, and tables. And I did it on a 512k machine usually with other software running. Word never choked on me.

I also note people love to make fun of Microsoft. And that's okay...it's normal for some to want to take shots at Number One, true or not. The bottom line is, IMO, they make some pretty good, reliable stuff. Some say the best. That's probably why they're Number One.

I'm using a Windows XP machine. What are you using?

Message edited on: 01/10/2006 21:44

Message edited on: 01/10/2006 21:52

Oh, I'm with you on the Microsoft thing -- they get a lot of totally undeserved slams. And I tend to be a Microsoft supporter.

In any case -- once again: the point isn't that these apps are 'bug free' (which they aren't -- read the message boards): but that these apps aren't generally handling types of data that make anywhere near the demands on the host software that 3D meshes do. Therefore, the other programs aren't as likely to manifest problems from being over-driven. Simply because they aren't dealing with data sources as intensive as those demanded by 3D.

Thus, IMO the.....uh.....'non-comparison' of these apps isn't a valid one.

BTW - some of us never had any real problems with P5, even in its initial release. But that doesn't mean that other people were "just imagining" the very real problems that they experienced. Likewise, I wouldn't disclaim the bug reports of others on MS software -- just because I was fortunate enough that it never happened to me.

The MS software has bugs in it......indeed it does. As does everything else ever created by Man.

We aren't perfect -- so our creations aren't perfect.

BTW - I use XP. Good operating system (although some would debate the point). But I wouldn't dream of calling it "bug free".

;)

MS Word - program version compatibility problems that make Poser look like a saint. Also has many irritating bugs within the program itself. Pagemaker - why, oh why, can't this mostly wonderful program recognize and use certain fonts? No, not funky ones, common ones, like, oh, say, Arial! Powerpoint - occasional, noticable bugs. Photoshop - memory hog, occasional bugs. Sorry (to disagree and for staying OT), but I work with these every day on the job, and they are all guilty of putting cuss words in my mouth :) I've listed them from worst to best. Poser only injects me with cuss words when I run into the light/shadowcam bugs. It opens older files in newer versions, and older versions will often open newer version files rather well. The UI could be trimmed to a more normal standard look. It could also use a few new import/export formats. Overall, using Poser is enjoyable.

Poser 8 will likely be a plugin to Shade, which means you'll be shelling out the extra bucks anyway (on the plus side, you'll get one hell of a render engine out of the deal. On the minus side - you may want to buy that shiny new dual dual-core Athlon FX-55 box now...) /P

you may want to buy that shiny new dual dual-core Athlon FX-55 box now

I'll wait until the price drops.

;)

By the time P8 arrives, who knows what the "industry standard" for hardware/OS will be?

I wonder if anyone will remember this thread -- or the opinions expressed therein -- in a couple of years or so when P8 comes out?

Ah, talk about waiting for your number to come up... "...same people have always worked on Poser. Always the same team..." Which perhaps at this point is not necessarily a right good thing, especially if they're going to start with a clean slate as everyone agrees needs to be done. It really depends on whether the existing folks, given the mandate and the resources, could really create something with "radical new features" like OS standard UI integration. I'm not sure avoiding the DS approach just because Daz was there first makes a lot of sense but who knows what evil lurks in the heart of Japanese business men? The component/plug-in route certainly hasn't hurt Max and others. Having three or four "editions" is still better than one size fits all though. Access 97 was about as stable as one could wish for DB (within its limits) in my experience. Access 2K seemed good as well but that was about the time I switched to mainly developing for SQL Server so I can't say as much on that version.

Because I'm already infatuated - no - addicted to Poser, I will foolishly run out and buy the next (several) versions just to keep abreast of its ongoing evolution. I have often thought that with Poser's high profile among 3D artists, that is should be as stable as the other high end apps out there and if they completely rewrote the code from the ground up (crosses fingers, wishing on stars, et al) that it could possibly upend several high end apps (for character animations). Alas, I don't see that happening. I see an increasing integration between Poser and Shade, and since Shade is IMHO not very intuitive, maybe it's better than e-frontier just shoot themselves in the foot and get it over with. BUT there is an enormous market for content, and as long as that content can be ported to high end app of choice........

"Adding a scripting engine can increase the complexity of an app exponentially" I do not agree. Whenever I write an app, I write it to be scriptable. I only have to stick to the object oriented paradigm and make sure the relevant methods are public. This approach REDUCES complexity, simplifies testing and bug fixing, and makes for better, stabler applications. While the MS applications are not bug-free, they have been developed using this strategy. Most of them are fully scriptable, to the point that there is functionality available to scripts that's not available from the (default) user interface! If e-frontier wants to keep Poser in business, they'll have to make the jump to 64 bit fairly soon. That'll require a rewrite from the ground up. An excellent opportunity to do it RIGHT. What would a fully scriptable, object oriented Poser 7 or 8 mean? - customizable user interface. Simply write your own and call the Poser functional objects; - easy to make plugins; - easy to make importers/exporters; - easy to call external rendering engines; - allows for professional 3D workflows; - hosting Poser within another 3D app, which means posability from the hosting app. It would be a very smart move to build this into Shade. Would I pay for a Poser that has been improved like described above? Definitely. And a 50% price increase would be acceptable to me too.

E-frontier has to keep their target market in mind.

Some Poser users have a tough time coming up with the plus-or-minus $100 to upgrade to P6. Jacking the price of Poser up into the $500 range would entail eF losing a certain percentage of their customer base. Not to mention what the effect of turning Poser into a $1000+ app would be. If the cost of the software ever gets that high, then Poser will no longer be an application to appeal to casual 3D hobbyists. And Poser's market will shrink accordingly.

As it is now, Poser is readily accessible to BOTH hobbyists and professionals.

More than one version is the answer, as suggested earlier in the thread. eF is already doing that, with three versions of Shade, from $50 to $1,000.

E-on is doing it with Vue, too. Not only do they have the professional line (Vue Infinite), they now have a hobbyist version, Vue Easel, which sells for less than Bryce.

Reading all this inferno, I'm thinking on a Poser9...

What's all this talk of Poser 8? Did I sleep through Poser 7? Did I miss a press release? My 2 cents on 64-bit... 1) They could do a lot just by re-linking with /LARGEADDRESSAWARE and fixing any internal heap limitations. This would let them get about 3.8GB in the 32-bit compatability mode of Win-64. 2) IMO, switching to 64-bit is not a "complete rewrite" as everyone says. I'm a professional programmer working on large & complex piece of software -- not going to name it here. We're gearing up for our 64-bit version soon, and it's not going to be a full rewrite. It's going to be a lot of work catching various problems, but I don't think it's going to consume more than 15% of our development budget for that release.

Yeah, but I bet your software isn't a Windows-95 era program...

Heh, I'd say how old it is, but that would almost name it. Sufficed to say, we have legacy issues older than Poser and a code base far larger.