Attached Link: http://www.nleomf.com/25tolife/

Hi, I normally do not get overly concerned about stuff like this, because I believe kids are smarter than most folks give them credit and in time with good role models to help balance things out, they can learn to make the right choices for themselves. However, given the love feast the media (music, tv, movies, news., etc.) today has with violence in general, I think a little balance and common sense is appropriate. I really do not see where we (here in the US) benefit from a new game advocating the joys of "thrill killing". And while I am not for censorship per se, I do think that responsible people need to take responsibility for the things they allow in the world around them - and in particular to be directed at our youth. If you feel the same, please consider signing the petition. Rob http://www.nleomf.com/25tolife/

good luck with that; however, I have to point out that the society in which the game is purveyed is based on violence to begin with. however, I was surprised to see such signatories as Mann Gegen Mann and Kim Jong Il; had no idea those guys were anti-video-game.

Actually, this is not really the best approach. Petitions and threats of banning something rarely do any long term good. What is needed is a heightened sense of awareness and the realization that "violence in video games alone is not bad or evil" Violence is a part of life and is a part of the human psyche. Where the focus needs to be is on learning what is appropriate and inappropriate when it comes to finding ways to express those urges. A steady diet of anything can and does affect us. Whether it be food we put in our bellies or thoughts and ideas we put in our head. For those interested in some well documented facts on the effects of violence and its affect on people, I recommend Grossman's "On Killing".

Well, I had no idea prior to this thread that Eidos was creating a direct competition with the Grand Theft Auto series from Rockstar Games. As a former retail game developer, I worked with 3D engines that featured violence with archaic weapons and the like and it was quite fun working on such projects as it was a form of fantasy in my opinion. Back in the heyday of Tipper Gore's PMRC in the 80's, she went after Ice-T and his metal band Body Count as there was a particular song orginally included on the debut album entitled "Cop Killer". With the PMRC adamantly fighting for censorship, they actually promted popularity with the banned song and filled Ice-T's coffers to the brim and boosted record sales beyond belief. Ice-T still personally thanks Tipper her futile efforts as it was the best promotion that didn't cost him or the record company a dime. I see she is still on the rampage against video games now and blames the entertainment industry for the lack of parental standards in America. While it's often convenient to form an opinion and adopt a scapegoat for its' cause, the true source of the problems at hand often go overlooked. I am pro-choice about nearly everything as that is what I feel democracy and freedom is, or should be, in America. There will be plenty of parental ratings on this game to prohibit little kids from buying it directly, and if it ends up in the homes of kids then the parents are to blame. If a minor goes on a crime spree and incorporates violence within their lifestyle, then there is something wrong with the lapse of morals and parenting that should inherently guide this person to do the right thing. I don't believe a game could brainwash a healthy mind and promote this activity. Another issue is marketing; cutesy games don't sell. And the movies are swamped with sex and violence; horror movies gross the most steadily in America out of all genres as sex & violence combined is even more fascinating for consumers. I for one don't wish for a communistic or socialist society that dictates what I can purchase or view, and Europe is quite open about all these issues and their crime rates are staggering low compared to the US. They have nude beaches, R rated movies on on free TV stations, access to the same games we do, and after a month stay in Romania I realized the US is incredibly screwed up with hypocrital morals and ideals that baffle all logic. When the game is released I will probably check it out, but I seriously doubt I will start a crime wave in real life because of it. It's just another one of those choices that I can see; if you don't like it, don't buy it. Making a spectacle of this game will only make it that much more popular in sales and be on every wishlist of kids who love 3D shooters. Just my opinion, of course. =)

Stands and Applauds to Shardz

Joins the applause

Personally, I believe it's a matter of getting back to, "You did it, YOU are responsible". The outcry against violence in movies and on TV has been going on since forever. Only in the last fourty years has it included games, be they D&D... before AD&D, even, or video/arcade games. even THOSE opinions are split... RPG... bad, that's encouraging satanism...but war games are GOOD! As has been pointed out above, How many of YOU played cowboys and indians, cops and robbers, pirates, and aliens Vs earth? Now, how many of you feel like slaughtering the populace of Younameit city? Any nutcase who gets caught, will use ANY excuse to get out of it. "I watched too much romper room when I was a kid." That one was actually used. Lou.

Lou, very well said, and leads to so many hundreds, if not thousands, of lawsuits that have been shifted, materialized, and vannished due to lack of credibility, belief, and concrete evidence that the entertainment industry is creating the harsh world we live in instead of simply reflecting the madness. I created 3D levels for games and some of the traps I created were very violent, such as; spiked doors closing swiftly upon stepping on a trigger, stepping stones that would disappear in lava, electrocution upon stepping out of sequence. Should I be shot or rewarded with merit? It's funny how these games are always in the hot market and sell 500k+ copies. Perhaps they prepare you for the real world. Every game had a Tipper Gore seal of non-approval with a parental sticker, yet I saw forums with kids under 12 playing them and trying to figure out hot to get to the next level. AD&D took quite a bit of crossfire when a student was killed in a college game of peers who were actually playing this game out in reality. I played this game with my friends in high school at lunch in a classroom indoors, and we were considered to be conscious, abiding, and very nice students compared to the 'jocks' who were trash-canning freshmans, raping the cheerleaders, and creating havok on campus with a much more acceptable past time. You certainly don't see football and baseball in the hot topics, yet in my real life experiences, these types thrived on high competition that was probably stemmed down to bad parenting, once again. The answer here isn't in the media, it's the message we send to children and the allowances we give them. Responsibility is just that; teach desirable ideals to kids, be a good person and have respect, sit down with kids and tell them right from wrong even though they don't see it daily. Ok, so the Hero of the latest new hot movie just removed 16 heads from people in 10 minutes, and you just took your 18 year old son to see it. Do I; 1.) Call Tipper Gore and admit my guilt?, 2.) Educate my son in that this is just plain wrong and is a fantasy movie of vengeance?, or 3.) Not take my son to the movie so he can go with his friends secretly?, or 4.) Maybe put him on restriction before the movie is released so I can control him? Laffs The answer is simple; communication. Be up front with kids, don't screw around with fairy this and fluffy kittie that; we are talking hard core reality here. Some will argue that religion must step into the matter and play the greater role. I believe common sense and inteligence comes even before that, and to simply ban everything that isn't wholesome will leave us in a world like the humans in "The Time Machine", only to be eaten by Moorlocks. "The Passion of Christ"; how did we feel about that one? A bit bloody and sadistic, eh? Well, welcome to Earth and the real world, and perhaps kids should see it as the new XBox360 is really irrelevant in comparison. All these kids getting the hot new toy for Xmas and not even knowing the true meaning of the holiday...all stems down to parenting. I hate to shatter any eggs and mess up anyone's new lawn seedlings, but this world is rather harsh and commercialism is king in America. We can't do much for adults that are twisted, but it's up to us to form the new generation, and video games aren't the problem here, folks. I suppose it's all about time, and most parents these days both work and leave the children to fend for their own. So when they come home from work and see the new Jenna Jameson mpg on the computer with Grand Theft Auto III running on the PlayStation, they directly call the companies and complain the p0rn movie was a bit too dirty and there are police being shot in virtual reality on TV. Note to parents: THE COMPUTER IS NOT A BABYSITTER LIKE YOUR TV WAS. A little common sense goes a long way, and unfortunately we don't have time for any of that these days.

Totally aside from the other issues (although I'll say that I'm firmly in the "you're in charge of your own kids" camp), signing online petitions is mostly meaningless. bonni

I didn't realise that this forum could be used to promote a personal political agenda that has nothing to do with Renderosity.

BRAVO both Shardz and Elizabyte.

I'm going to search for an on-line petition banning Little League baseball in America. I'm reading far too many reports these days of enraged fathers beating the shit out of umpires who make a bad call at home plate.

It is the responsibility of the parents to teach the children, and it starts from home, not from Capitol Hill.

Attached Link: http://www.petitiononline.com/utahutah/petition.html

OK so if posting petitions on this site is OK here is another

Mark_uk, this thread was more along the lines of parental raising and control etc, nothing really political...it looks so far like a nice healthy discussion of "youth gone wrong" cuz mom and pop are too lazy to do the raising anymore... If you want to start a petition thread, by all means do so, but it's not necessary to "horn in" on Rob's thread with something that is totally off topic for this discussion.

My apologies to everyone. If you go back and read my posts, you will see this was not meant to be some political agenda on my part. I had a knee jerk reaction to something, and at the time I felt in support of the petition. Some of the comments made here have broadened my understanding of the issue, but have also set off some petty responses of their own. I am not against video games or violent content. I already said that. I do not point to violence on tv and in video games, etc., as the root cause for people going out and killing other people. So, please do not put words in my mouth. In fact, you will find that I support almost every comment made here. My reaction to the game was not based on any of the reasons others have cited in defense of the industry. What shocked me was the "thrill kill" aspect. I find this offensive. I know many of you do not. But some folks do not have a problem with child pornography either, yet collectively most of us do and we do not allow or encourage such things. I question the wisdom in allowing certain antisocial patterns of behavior to become mainstream concepts. The random killing of people with no provocation other than "its fun" is one such ideas that I found a bit disturbing. That is what lead to my post. Again, I apologize if this offended people here who feel violence of any kind in these games was being attacked. To me there is a difference between playing a game where you engaging in fantasy violence as competiton and pit your skill against another, or the computer, and a game in which you get your kicks by random slaughter of people like deer caught in your headlights.

Both links refer to violence and affect parents so definately On Topic

Your post doesn't offend me Rob :) It just brings home the need for parents to sit and discuss things with their children. The thrill kill aspect bothers me also.

Attached Link: http://www.gamerevolution.com/oldsite/articles/violence/violence.htm

Of course, there's the little factoid that the anti-video game crusaders like to ignore - that youth violence has steadily been going down for some years now, and among some age groups, is at an all-time low.

Well, when the Police departments start posting the statistics then I might believe them, until then,everyone spins it the way they want to spin it. The bottom line is, kids need more good role models, they need their parents to be involved and in the absence of that society at large has to become responsible, since we are the ones that support and suffer the criminal behaviour.

Reporting statistics from the US Department of Justice is "spinning"?!?

Message edited on: 01/22/2006 17:48

My younger sister worked as a social worker for a live-in house for "disturbed youth" and she said without a doubt every one of these kids have exactly the same thing in common - they all know with absolute certainty that nobody cares about them. Especially their parents, so they raise themselves (anyone read "Lord of the Flies"?). Some adults (and the occaisonal teens) have kids they don't want, don't treat them well (or at all) and emotionally (and sometimes physically) discard them. These said kids might then go out and do something that ends up on the evening news - this being the only report surrounding a teenager, we assume it's all teenagers. News outlets need big banner stuff to sell ad space, or commercial time - the higher their circulation, the more they can charge - simple economics. This becomes the stereotype, and when you go into their rooms you find entertainment based on violence (what... a... surprise...?! because no adult stopped them from buying it, or took it from them when they found it) - THIS must be the culprit! We all of a sudden think "it's a disease my kid can catch (this is the part that kills me! - lol - no pun intended) if he plays THAT song or movie or videogame!" If you love your kids (or care at all), treat them with respect, and teach them right from wrong (because it's not only your job, but your obligation since you brought them into this world and need to teach them to behave properly in it), no game, movie, TV show, or song lyrics are going to sway their actions towards violence or illegal behavior. On a side note, when something is banned, it is immediately the most desired thing on the planet to a teenager - our most desired searches in high school was for stuff we weren't allowed to have as determined by the government.

Just my two cents.. having a son (now 22) who has played these types of games most of his teenage years. He is now happily married and has a very close relationship with his in laws who think that even though they don't like the games (some of them) that he STILL plays even now, they cannot fault that he is a kind, caring and very thoughtful individual especially when it comes to the wellbeing of their daughter. He has been with her for five years and happily married for nearly one. He was told by me from the very beginning that these games were not reality and he had to be made aware of the difference. He KNEW the difference and I always believed in showing him the right way by example..not the adage that I hear so much these days which is that some parents tell their children "Do as I say, not as I do", abrogating all responsibility for their childrens actions. I mean how hard is it to show that you, as a parent, also know the difference between reality and fantasy? I agree that it comes down to basically being the parents concern to show their children the correct way to behave...I did and I could not be more proud of my boy who has grown into a very fine young man...

Steps off soapbox :o)

I am sorry if my comment has offended anyone, it is just my beliefs from my own experience.

(smiles while applauding) Well said, and good job!

as an avid video game player (xbox, psp) who's fav genre is war shooter, I do not mind the thrill kill vids. My kids play their games as well (NintendoDS, xbox, psp) but aren't too much into the shooting and killing, but if they were I wouldn't stop them from playing them. They are into nintendogs which drives me crazy, and ultimate spiderman, which is cool. There is no direct line to vid violence and real life violence. Just as there is no link to comic books in teh 50's and degenerate behaviour. Just as there is no link to IceT's body count and kids killing cops. People are scared of what they do not understand so they try to ban it which just brings it into teh spotlight and there for make it more popular. Any who that is my ramble.

oh and listening to or playing Nintendogs gets my daughter more pissed off then playing socom or ghost recon would :) what does that tell you. BAN NINTENDOGS

I don't see how this game is any different than San Andreas wich is already out there, it has weapons, shoot the bystander , run em over whatever and you can run a whore house....it's the parents choice as to what their kids play and what they learn from it....just hope when they visit a friend their parents have the same choices....or your kids remember your words....sigh Shemia I am clapping for you. I hope I get the same results when my young man grows up.