Ok, not you personally perhaps, but in general, I see a lot of images in the poser gallery where people have opted to render a scene or image without any shadows! Why is that? I could see if one were going for a toony look, but there are some that use very realistic textures, but yet the shadows are either so light you can't see them, or completely non-existant. Are shadows just that hard to deal with that people neglect to use them or avoid them altogether? I don't want to single out specific images, but I'm sure many of you have seen them before.

I wonderd about that myself lately.. just As 90% of the figures mainly Female are standing on her toes.. looks like people forget to put the feet on the floor,just like it looks like they forget the shadows... CB

Ah yes. Standing on toes is another thing I just don't get. I see a lot of that too.

Hi justpatrick,

Perhaps some folks feel that a badly rendered shadow is worse than no shadow at all in an attempt to produce a realistic scene, therefore they leave it out altogether or minimalize (if that's a word) it so that it doesn't detract from the overall render.

So, one shouldn't do renders with so-so shadows ... or ... reply to an inquiry in the Poser Forum with a run-on sentence either. ;=]

cheers, (anyway)
dr geep
;=]

P.S. Rendering sans shadows will be much quicker, also. ;=]

Just MVHO, I could be wrong. ;=]

er..uh..I haven't actually tried..;) I use a lot of backgrounds, which would quickly look pretty strange if shown..pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!..;)

Interesting insight, geep! I can actually understand and sympathize with the part about faster rendering, but if realism is the goal, then slower rendertimes should be expected. And it seems realism is the goal of most folks in the galleries. I never noticed this when viewing other galleries though, so it seems to be something related to Poser itself. I guess shadows are a tough thing to weild correctly, but if you got the correct lighting, then shadows should come naturally.

re: " ... slower rendertimes should be expected."

Good point, and I agree.

re: " ... shadows should come naturally."

Not necessarily, good looking, i.e., realistic, shadows can sometimes be very difficult to achieve in a 3D virtual world.

The may not "just happen" even with good lighting.

Maybe it's time for another tut on lighting with a focus on shadows, hmmm ............ ;=]

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Shadows are one of the key elements in my work. I wouldn't be without them. :)

Sam, just checked out your gallery. Your work is excellent!

Thank you very much! :)

a lack of shadows does tend to be inherant in Poser renders..but why?..it's not that hard to turn them on,& if you can't get a good shadow map then switch to raytrace. I think a badly done shadow is probably better than no shadow at all(depending on the kind of image)

" a lack of shadows does tend to be inherant in Poser renders..but why?" Honestly, I think it's because there are more Poser users who do their images just for kicks, and waiting for shadows to calc in Poser (raytrace or shadow map) is boring for them. They just want to get a thrill from posting something to the galleries. Not all users of course, but some. Other apps tend to attract more serious enthusiasts. Not just talking about "high end" apps either... even apps like Carrara, Vue, Bryce, etc., all tend to require a greater learning curve than Poser.

I've seen a few images where there are apparently so many lights that it eliminates the shadows and other cases where the scene is so large that the shadow camera/calculation doesn't see the figure so it doesn't cast a shadow. I have in image "Red team in position" that suffered from this. It was one of my early images so i did not know why so i left it. Mostly I don't think it is on purpose. kinda like hovering people...that always gives me a chuckle... standing on their toes is one thing but when they aren't even on the ground...thats funny... and the more wow great image responses it has the funnier it is.

Also, I think that new Iclone program will probably steal away many of the very casual users that Poser used to attract. I've been hearing more about it recently, and from what I gather, it's dead easy.

"users who do their images just for kicks, and waiting for shadows to calc in Poser " sadly I think that's true, "the scene is so large that the shadow camera/calculation doesn't see the figure so it doesn't cast a shadow" nahh..that's taking the easy way out,look at SamTherapys render of the figure standing by the car in the Urban sprawl environment..the shadows are all working as they should be.. & as ernyoka commented on that image "It's all a question of settings"

that's taking the easy way out,look at SamTherapys render of the figure standing by the car in the Urban sprawl environment..the shadows are all working as they should be.. oh, i know it can be done right. by either useing raytrace renders or focusing the shadow lite cam on the figures (or any number of other tricks or settings). but at the time i didnt have a clue and didnt even notice it until i had posted.

it's a good question! I guess I can spend up to half the prep time playing about with lighting and getting the shadows "right" (as right as I ever get them! - perhaps the resaon is that lighting in general can be so damn hard, no matter waht software you render in! It looks really strange when you see a figure brightly lit but casting no shadows - looks like they're floating for one thing. The only time you could genuinely get away with this is for a pin-up I reckon

Shadows: I use too many shadows, or so i'm told, so you can't get me on THAT one. but I guess it really depends on what the person is trying to show? maybe they are mainly trying to show off the the contrast of a skin texture with a clothing texture, for instance, and a shadow would detract from that. not everyone is trying to create the same picture in the same way, which is a Good Thing. As to standing on toes... yup, most of mine do that; it's probably because I do Model Photography a bit also, and a womans calves, rear & posture look better (to me at least) when she is on her toes, at least partially.

for people viewing this that may be having trouble with shadows.are there any tutorials on how to get the most out of Posers lighting?

I know DrGeep has a good one on controlling the shadows..don't know of any others though

Message edited on: 02/16/2006 22:01

I do?

you dont?

::::: Opera :::::

I still use P4 regularly. I am interested in shadows very much, which is why I do a lot with indoor scenes and spots with only the infinate fill lights having no shadow. The problem I face is shadows with stairstep or whatever it is called even with the map size set to max. I have to smudge the shadow edges... does anyone have hints on how to do this smoothing of bad shadow edges best?

DrGeep..hope you don't mind me spamming links to your tuts here,I wasn't meaning any specific tut as much as all of them being a good overview of how to use the lights: Poser's Spotlights: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?&Form.ShowMessage=1633949 Poser's Lighting: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?&Form.ShowMessage=1618168 Fine Tuning Spotlights: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?&Form.ShowMessage=1622543

Oh, I guess I do ... thanks stone. ;=]

momodot, you ARE rendering with anti-alias on in the P4 engine, aren't you?

I love shadows, but I've always hated the increased render times. I just got a major computer upgrade, so maybe I will try some images with shadows sometime and see if the render time is bearable now.

momodot, scaling the shadow cams' view can be much more efficient in controlling the resolution and edge feathering of the shadows than is increasing the shadow map size. Also saves memory and render time. Keep in mind that to get rid of jaggy shadows, you just want more shadowmap pixels defining the shadow edges. So zooming the shadowcams in (scaling) can often do this much more effectively, and in much higher multiples, than using a larger, memory hogging shadowmap.

A lot of Poser users are lazy and just want to post a new gallery pic each day. It's all about the posting rather than about proper lighting, shadows, depth of field, color usage, and foot arch.

I second the power of zooming in on the shadowcams. It cuts down render time because a lower setting on the shadowmap yields the same results of a higher setting with the shadowcam pulled back. ::::: Opera :::::

I render with shadows, but I turn the floor invisible so that there aren't any floor shadows. I primarilly use Poser to make "tubes" (backgroundless images) for people in tag groups to use in their creations, so some shadows are nice, but they the most popular images are those with well rounded lighting without deep shadows in any one direction.

One of the reasons I switched to using apps other than Poser for rendering was that my shadows in Poser would often not show up - especially on floors that were not the default ground...

It kept bothering me, so I just moved on to other applications.

Look at this old image of mine:
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=143623
I have no idea why there is no shadow on the ground in there...

By contrast all of my Vue, Bryce, and Carrara work shadows are there, and even in other 2002 work it was sometimes a feature:
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=170215

But of course much moreso now:
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=1137147

I've only ever had one Poser render in which I felt the shadows worked:
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=854063

But it took me 29 spotlights to get that...
Poser just doesn't seem to be very shadow friendly from my experience. Maybe Poser 6 is an exception.

Message edited on: 02/17/2006 00:44

I can not go without shadows. More depth in using em. Do not like the floating thing.

External cloudy days or internal with good ambient illumination have NO SHADOWS!

That is true. HOWEVER: 1) Indoor with really diffuse ambient is rare. 2) Outdoors on a gray day....perhaps no defined shadow line, but that does NOT mean everything can be flat flat flat; the depth cues are in the color gradient on skin and hair. ::::: Opera :::::

I agree with SamTherapy. I think shadows add a breadth of substance and mystique. Warm Regards, Nancy

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=1095023&Start=1&Artist=Jovial&ByArtist=Yes

I do render with shadows - ALWAYS!

Sorry I couldn't resist linking to my image!

Just my 2 cents worth.

I don't think I could do a render without shadows. Why spend money on realistic figures and ultra-realistic textures and then make a scene look unreal. If there is directional lighting enough to cause specular highlights then there should be some shadows. Not using shadows just sort of looks wrong somehow.

Sometimes the shadows are vital to the scene - as in my example image.

Regards,
Jovial.

I sometimes render without shadows. Realism is not my goal, and never has been. "Illustrative" is the word I'd use to describe my style. Sometimes, shadows are just distracting.

I found a strange effect with shadows in my Poser installation. When I render a scene with a huge distant background plane (to avoid casting shadows onto the plane itself) I realize that all shadows are nearly invisible. when I render the same scene without background plane, shadows are OK. so I started to render 2 times, one with background, but without shadows, and a second time without background, but clearly visible shadows. late I blend both pics together to get the final result. Quite a couple of my latests pics are done this way. maybe I am too dull ...?

Regarding the point about figures standing on tiptoes, this usually happens if you apply a library pose witout turning off the IK on the legs.

operaguy, the jagged edge is from the shadow map being too small, the most annoying thing is that it is jagged while being blurry! Nance, I have never heard of this shadow cam? I will have to look it up with Geep. I have never heard of this scaling thing... thank you. Face-Off's AO master looks great for making things not "float" it is sitting on my wishlist. Maybe if I pay attention I can figure out the node set up from his free tutorial. I bought his RealSkinShader but his tutorial on that subject gave me fun hours working on procedural skin materials. I "shoot" indoors mostly aside from the pinup stuff. I try to replicate available light photography or flash by using spots. The flash uses a fill and a bounce off the ceiling. The available is weak infinates with no shadow from each wall, the ceiling, and the floor. Then I use a spot from the camera either weak or strong and then stronger spots with strong shadow from lamps or ceiling lights, the window, or a "fictive" source. Then a weak fill light often with no shadow. I have tried doing ambient light by using very dark ambient colors but I don't actually use that much. Outside or a room with giant windows I use three lights, a medium wide spot of the camera, a brigtht cool infinite light from the sun, and a warmer very week fill without shadow. Anyway that is kinda what I do. Lately I have been using just a spot off the camera and a fill for a photo look. I need to RTFM to see what this shadow cam is about :)

jenay. >When I render a scene with a huge distant background plane (to avoid casting shadows onto the plane itself) I realize that all shadows are nearly invisible. when I render the same scene without background plane, shadows are OK. This is what I was mentioning earlier. When Poser calculates it's shadows it basically "looks through" the shadow light camera. The Shadow cameras are set up to automatically adjust to the size of the scene. that is to say if you put something far away it will zoom out to see everything. at some point the camera will zoom so far back that your foreground items become a speck or not visible at all. So no shadowing is cast. You can avoid this by setting up your scene then switching your view to the shadow cam and adjusting the camera to point at your foreground items. Or you can switch to raytrace shadows. To keep things from casting shadows on your background image without putting it so far away you can (assuming your using p5 or 6) connect your image map to the ambient color and set ambient to 1 and diffuse and to 0 (but leave the image connected to the diffuse color)

I never think to look for shadows in mine. Having exceeded my system's limitations already and not having the finances to build a bigger, badder super computer ... I have to simplify. And post working shadows .. I don't even want to think of the hours of torture that would create tryung to get them just right without ruining the image under and around them.

Well I'm a hobbyist and post to the gallery and I "MUST" have shadows in my scene. The only time I may knock one or two out of the render is if they look dumb on an imported background for instance. Oh! and as for waiting for it to render, I actually render my shadows seperate from the image and combine them in PS7, that way if they do look shit, I can soften them, lighten them, rub some out, whatever but I always have shadows! Not all hobbyists do it just for the comments!

Hi Tyger_purr, thank you for the explanation. I think that's the problem. (BTW: I am still using Poser4). I got some ideas to experiment with. will have a closer look at the shadowcam. I think each light has a separate shadowcam - right ? I also read dr.geeps spotlight tutorials - very interesting. :)

I think each light has a separate shadowcam - right ? in P5/6 that is the case I assume it is the same in P4.

Shadows, and how to EASILY achieve them was one of the things I loved most by switching to Poser 5 (back when THAT was the new one) because raytracing makes lovely crisp shadows that you KNOW where will fall. I never was good at Poser's lights, and some of my older images has a sadly lack of shadows, because I didn't know how to make them appear. Now, with Poser 6 and the possibility of not just softening raytraced shadow but also adding Ambient Occlusion, I usually spend a lot of time getting the shadows just right. And most of the time, I think I succeed :o) Remember that Poser 6's default render setting is with Shadows switched OFF! So if you're new to this and just hit "render" you won't get any shadows at all. And you may not even know why! The tiptoeing.. many "pin up style" poses are made witht he characters standing on tip toes. Great - IF YOU PUT SOME HIGH HEELED SHOES ON THE CHARACTER - if you leave them bare footed.. it just looks plain stupid... (unless of course it's deliberate and the character is stretching for something...)

Re the standing on tiptoes thing... It's pretty much a pose cliche; most pose packs feature women standing like this. I guess it's to replicate wearing heels even though it looks silly on a nude or barefoot figure. I'd guess the majority of Poser users don't tweak poses or make their own.

did any of you catch the year they made the (I think it was) Miss America pagent contestants go barefoot for the swimsuit competition? It was a fantastic moment. I loved it. ::::: Opera :::::

I seldom use shadows in renders. At first it was because I didn't know anything about lights so it went from ugly to scary. Now that I am used to play with Poser, I don't use shadows much because I prefer an image without shadows most of the times. Just a question of personal choice, I suppose. I love to use the Christmas Carol's lights and they don't cast shadows anywhere so I see clearly all the figures and props I use in a scene. I think there are many Poser users who are like me but don't say it. I don't mind saying it: I love playing with Poser and rendering images but I don't consider myself an artist and I don't aim for perfection. I play with Poser to RELAX. If it becomes a job, I'll have to find something else to have fun with. ;o)