Rochr, When you make the little fiddly bits of greeble on a model, do you (in your own mind if nowhere else) KNOW what each bit does, or is for before you start? Or do you just think, "I'll put a little grid thing here, and a few thin pipes there and this odd round thing will fit in over there and..." or do you just divide, extrude, intrude, twist, bevel and so on, without any shape in mind first? Anyone else, same questions?

Oh I've asked this same question over and over to Rudy and I'm sorry to tell you but,.....................

Sorry, phone went..........Now where was I?....... Oh yeah,....I'm sorry to tell you but,...............

Oppps. Someone at the door......right, He works with a plan that comes to him when he works but with ideas that was planned before he started working on the plan of action to make his artwork........or was that the other way round?....damn brain!!.........no, thats right!, he uses his ideas from a planned image in his mind (not on paper) when he begins working with the idea that was planned before he started working on his latest image of the idea he planned before on an idea for his latest artwork, that he planned....................

Yep, that about sums it up ;}

I remember reading an interview with the special effects modellers who worked on the Star Wars films, wherein they said they put the detail stuff together as if it looked like it did something. If they just put pipes and blocks (and bits from Tamiya tank kits, etc) together tidily but without a 'purpose', it looked unreal. Sometimes, usually if a pattern was repeated (such as on the back of the Millennium Falcon ship) the construction had to be planned beforehand. Other times they made it up as they went along but always with the imaginary 'purpose' in mind. Another interview with a British special effects modeller indicated the same notion was in practise before Star Wars on shows like Space 1999. Widgets, I think we called them back then. Yes, that was it. Before the old king died...

Yeah, pretty much everything abobe. :) I never put to much thought in greebles, but rather just play with primitives, models and divide, extrude, intrude. A few thin bent pipes usually works too. Randomness is the clue, yet it doesnt hurt to add a few thought out pieces here and there.

Thanks for the... feedback guys. (looking dubiously at marcfx) Now think about how YOU do it, what method do YOU use? If Rochr turns up it would be nice if he answered too, but I only addressed this to him because I started by looking at his "Cell" modelling. I just wondered how other modelers around here did it.

Rochr, Oh so you don't only tweak the model - you also push other models into it, so that they appear to be all one? Or do you weld, bridge or somehow connect the adjusted primatives to the main model?

Well normally i start with a gap or surface, and in the "Cell-case", i started by doing some dividing/extruding etc of the surface. Once that was done, i started adding primitives/pipes. Last i used the outer rim from the fan-models and put those in there as well. If we take the door i made for the cell for example.

Heres how the greebles look like.

@Fran LOL. @Rochr You know, its 'seeing is believing'.....in 'wire frame' mode its easier to see how things come together and how its made. I always imagine your work as large...very large, and all as one model, and it doesnt matter how much i try to get some idea on how you did it, i never thought its lots of smaller bits all added on together.......brain dead I'm afraid ;(.... Now, seeing it in the wire frame show how easier it all can be done....(Like your 'Mecha' model.....still love playing with it ;) thanks). Thankyou again for your help Rudy and I bet it also helps Fran the same way too. Appreciate that very much :) Marc (off to play with C4D (Sorry TheBryster, but it WILL end in Bryce).

Rochr, Thanks for the close-up views and insite into how you made the Cell. What did you start with? A primative? How do you keep things together? Weld, group, or are some parts just children of others? I suppose the pipes are cylinders with bend deformers? Very interesting to see the model/part in wireframe, I see you have other models/parts pushed into that model with the wires/polygons shown. Fascinating stuff Rochr. Thanks. @marc, I too have been guiltily playing with Cinema (but only version6 so hopefully that doesn't count. And I swear I'm playing with Bryce again now, got a nice little something coming along but I feel it needs a load more.... stuff added to it yet.

Started out with this part here. Kinda went out of control from there... :) For the Cell-image, the hierarchy got quite extensive and i used groups with very large numbers of children, mainly because i wanted to be able to change stuff later on with ease. It was only when i completed all the models that i connected parts like the rails for the walkway, walls etc, and managed to narrow down the objects. The pipes are both regular cylinders and splines inside sweep nurbs. The B-spline usually give a really smooth curvature so its great for wires.

Thanks Rudy for your example there. I have a question regarding the connected parts you mentioned, are thet grouped, bridged or something else to combine the parts as one as you do in Bryce?.........C4d is quite a unusual programme to follow with its mass of tools, structures, Functions and so on.

When connecting objects, youll have to have two or more editable objects selected, then in the objects manager, select Objects > Connect. This will make one new single model of all the selected parts. Keep in mind though that the original objects are still there as well, so make sure you delete them or turn them off.

Thanks a lot Rudy, I see where i was going wrong. I was using the 'group objects' as i do in Bryce.... That's another thing i've noticed, you cant make an object positive/negative.........i do miss that. Renderosity/Bryce forum = Learning from the masters :) Marc (Going for another try)

No problem Marc. :) Although you cant make objects positive/negative, there are still booleans. You just set the stuff up differently and drop all parts in a Boolean object. Not as easy as Bryce though. :)

Hmmmm, sounds like it isnt.....got to get used to this programme better before doing this like that. LOL. Bryce has it advantages doesnt it ;) Thanks again. Marc

This turned into an impromtu interview. Bookmarked! Nice thread Fran!

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Great thread!

Multi-object boolean is still do-able though. You can boolean with sets of objects if they have been grouped in the object manager. The thought of hundreds of sequential nested booleans otherwise - shudder!

I use a tool called Blender to do something on surfaces called 'Discombobulate'..;) if you create primitives, you can import objects into Blender, discombobulate, and then export into Wings, etc.

Greebles can be made in different ways though. You can do it bit by bit or use terrains or even pictures. On my Brain Salad Surgery I used small pics from Giger's other works. I like Rochr's methodoligy though. He builds the whole thing and then he textures. Me, I make a piece and then texture it and go on to make the next bit. This means of course that as time goes by rendering takes longer and longer which is why I was pleased to come up with the idea of using the plop-render when I want to see what a new piece looks like in the final picture.

Now theres another advantage with Bryce - the plop render.

Every rendering program should have a plop render. Btter yet, a free-form plop render, so we wouldn't be restricted to just rendering a square. AS

@Fran When I use greebles, for a small par of a model, I try to figure why do I need greebles there.. so I build it just as if it has a real purpose.. for bigger parts I try to make it so complex.. that it's not possible to figure out what it's made for.. it's just huge and complex. Another point.. try to know what kind of greeble you need.. is it electric greebles? with cables, fuse boxes etc. Hydrolic greebles, pipes, compressors etc. Or mechanical greebles, with fans, gears etc..

Message edited on: 02/21/2006 03:36

ooooh, I like the sounds of that AS. "free-form plop render".

Free-form plop-render! Cracking idea, AS!!!

A self intelligent plop render. Whereas it would only render the pixels that have changed. It would also be great if Bryce could make Booleans out of an already booleaned object. I don't know why it can't do that.

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Bandolin, If I remember correctly you can. You have to set the new group (previous boolean) to pos or neg as appropriate though. I think it gets created as neutral.

A plop-render with the ability to change textures without the need to change it in the main programme.......mmmmmm sound nice to me :) I also think that if a person is use to building, beit mechanical, engineering, industrial or other, it helps the making of greebles or come to think of it, anything when making models. I feel it helps knowing where parts could/would go..... Rochr is a mechanical, industrial, spacial engineering specialist...... ;) Marc (Opening up his book of Lego models!!)

If Bryce was able to freeze a complex boolean into a mesh, I'd be happy as a rabbit in a garden.

Yeah, "true" boolean operations, I have heard it called. There are some rumors going around it could happen for B6/B7 AS

TRue boolean is cool to export a model.. but that's all, I've worked with some apps that offered true boolean operation, and the modeler engine must be really improved to get a nice and smooth result, the other "bad point" is that true boolean is destructive, I mean you can't adjust the differents pieces once its "booleaned"

Pidjy: ..you can't adjust the differents pieces once its "booleaned" ..

Yes you can! Just select that part of the booleaned group that you want to adjust and....well...adjust it! I do it all the time. You have to be careful that you don't move or adjust the particular part out of the boolean range but it does work.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing.....if you have a cylinder booleaned to make a hole in a cube, you can select the cylinder and re-size or move or even re-texture without haveing to ungroup, de-boolean or whatever. or are we talking about something other than Bryce here?

Message edited on: 02/21/2006 17:24

I'll GLADLY give up being able to move the pieces so I can export out of the Bryce black hole and uvmap! ;o) AS

Wow! I go to sleep and the thread runs away! Rudy, "Started out with this part here. Kinda went out of control from there... :)" Yes I see... but... you don't get shapes like that already made in Cinema do you? So did you start with a cylinder before you got to that shape or a "Capsule" or did you make that shape with some sort of spline and Nurbs thingie? Is the back of that shape flat? Or is it the negative of the front? "For the Cell-image, the hierarchy got quite extensive and i used groups with very large numbers of children, mainly because i wanted to be able to change stuff later on with ease." "It was only when i completed all the models that i connected parts like the rails for the walkway, walls etc, and managed to narrow down the objects." Narrow down? In what way? "The pipes are both regular cylinders and splines inside sweep nurbs. The B-spline usually give a really smooth curvature so its great for wires." Ah B-splines... I found the bezier splines really easy to work with, didnt find the b-spline quite so easy. I can see I must practice it more. Is there a tutorial on making pipes anywhere? I just tried using a b-spline and I tried all the nurbs on it with no luck, so I just know I'm making the spline wrong. (I also tried making the cell shape starting with a capsule, cutting off the bottom and then... well that's where things sort of went down the drain.) Oh, understand that I don't want to slavishly copy the cell you made, I'd just like to know how you STARTED, so I can do similar things with shapes and then go my own way. But I seem to have a lot of trouble starting off right. " When connecting objects, youll have to have two or more editable objects selected, then in the objects manager, select Objects > Connect. This will make one new single model of all the selected parts. Keep in mind though that the original objects are still there as well, so make sure you delete them or turn them off." Excellent tip, thanks Rochr, I didnt know about that. (and thanks Marc, for asking the question) " No problem Marc. :) Although you cant make objects positive/negative, there are still booleans. You just set the stuff up differently and drop all parts in a Boolean object. Not as easy as Bryce though. :)" Oooh, booleans. How about metaballs though? Now this is where Bryce really scores over Cinema, did you know that you can't get that lovely melded colours effect in Cinema's metaballs like you can in Bryce? I think that's because every Bryce metaball is an individual sphere with metaball properties and can thus be coloured individually - but in Cinema you put ordinary sphere's into a Metaball operator and you can only add colour to the Metaball not the spheres. Incarnadine, " Multi-object boolean is still do-able though. You can boolean with sets of objects if they have been grouped in the object manager. The thought of hundreds of sequential nested booleans otherwise - shudder!" They are? What, in cinema?.... Oh.... Does the same apply to Metaballs in Cinema? Er, no, it doesn't. I just tried it... shame. " I use a tool called Blender to do something on surfaces called 'Discombobulate'..;) if you create primitives, you can import objects into Blender, discombobulate, and then export into Wings, etc." Pakled, you mean the program "Blender" or is there a "blender tool" in Cinema? Bryster, "Greebles can be made in different ways though. You can do it bit by bit or use terrains or even pictures." I've signed up for a bryce course with the Eclectic Academy and I think that's one of the things we're doing in the course. As well as tackling the DTE. Should be good. Pidjy, " @Fran When I use greebles, for a small par of a model, I try to figure why do I need greebles there.. so I build it just as if it has a real purpose.. for bigger parts I try to make it so complex.. that it's not possible to figure out what it's made for.. it's just huge and complex." What, like "its near the engine so it must be something to do with power transfer, or exhaust or... whatever" Like that? I seem to run out of steam (and inventiveness) well before it gets complex enough. " Another point.. try to know what kind of greeble you need.. is it electric greebles? with cables, fuse boxes etc. Hydrolic greebles, pipes, compressors etc. Or mechanical greebles, with fans, gears etc.." Electric I can do, Hydrolic I have no experience with so wouldnt know where to start, and as for fans!!! HELPPP! I don't seem to be very good at symetrical things. " I also think that if a person is use to building, beit mechanical, engineering, industrial or other, it helps the making of greebles or come to think of it, anything when making models. I feel it helps knowing where parts could/would go....." That's probably why I have such difficulties with it. I can create (carve out with a craft knife or scalpul) a rubber stamp in pretty minute detail from a tracing of a design (either from something else - a picture or a photo, or else from a design or drawing of my own) and even if I say so myself I dont think they are all that bad, some are quite nicely intricate. But I was never any good as maths so machinery is a lost world to me... "Rochr is a mechanical, industrial, spacial engineering specialist...... ;)" Can you hear my teeth grinding? " If Bryce was able to freeze a complex boolean into a mesh, I'd be happy as a rabbit in a garden. Yeah, "true" boolean operations, I have heard it called. There are some rumors going around it could happen for B6/B7" Oh AS, it does sound nice, doesnt it - but just how likely do you really think it is??? Funny how the conversations always seem to come back to wishful thinking about Bryce6 or 7, isn't it?

I have another question - which applies to any modeling program. I have some ancient drawings of things... like a medical hand scanner (watched too much Star Trek as a child) a security door, a transporter and various spaceships, etc etc. How would you go about modelling such things from the (pretty sketchy) original drawings? (forget about doing it in Wings for the moment) Think Bryce or Cinema. (of course you understand that I'm saying that because having used those two I might have some idea what the answers mean. Lol!)

There are some rumors going around it could happen for B6/B7" Oh AS, it does sound nice, doesnt it - but just how likely do you really think it is??? ------------ You didn't see that one thread? Some guy asked DAZ if they wanted help with an exporter (TONS of techniacl talk ensued), and DAZ basically said no, what they have is almost in place anyway. Something like that, lol. AS

AS, in Cinema you can rework the boolean by moving/resizing the parts. It only becomes a fixed static mesh if you change it to that.

Yeah, I like that. I had read up on C4D some time ago, It's still my choice for a "higher-end" app. I mean I have ZBrush 2 now, but as far as a "complete" 3D package goes, C4D just looks great. AS

Ok, made a few mini tuts for your questions Fran. Heres how i did the first shape: 1. From Objects, select Primitive and Tube. Rotate it so it faces the cam and in the Objects attributes menu, set Rotation segments to around 60 for a smooth curve. Then go to Structure > Make editable. 2. Now were going to delete and move some points. Switch to front view, then go to Tools > Select Points and Rectangle selection. In the Active tool box, uncheck "Only select visible elements" 3. Select the bottom points, and pull down to desired height. 4. Switch to side view > Rectangle selection, and select all the points on the back side. 5. Use the scale button and pull to the right to increase the size of the back. 6. Switch to side view again, and select the bottom points and pull up. Here i also made a copy, decreased its size slighly and placed it inside the first part. I also moved the bottom points to match the first one. With narrowing down the objects, The rail for the walkway was made in several different pieces. So instead of having, lets say 200 different objects, you make everything editable, select all the pieces you want to make into one single one, and in the Objects window to the right, select Connect. This will create a new single copy of all the 200 objects. The unconnected objects are still there as well though, so if you want to keep them, (in case you change your mind)simply select all of them again, group them and hide the group. Now you only have the connected copy visible and a scene with less objects to handle. :) Ill put together a short tut for the cables as well, so stay tuned. :)

Ok, cable time. 1. Go to Objects > Nurbs and select Sweep Nurbs. 2. Go up to the Splines window and choose B-Spline. 3. Hold down CTRL and start adding point to your desired shape. The more points, the smoother shape. 4. Now go to Tools and select Points > Live selection. By selecting points, fine tune the spline to get rid of any "edgy" curves. 5. Grab the Spline object and drop it into the Sweep Nurbs object. 6. Go to the Spline window again, and select the shape you want for your wires. Round, rectangle, profile, n-side etc. Lets choose a circle. 7. Drop the circle inside the Sweep Nurbs object as well with the circle first and spline second. Also, in the Objects Attributes window, set the radius of the circle and the cable. 8. If needed to fine tune the curves even more, simply select the Spline object and Tools > Points > Live Selection, and move around individual points as you like. Hope these are to some help. :)

This is really kind of you Rudy, Thanks. I've got to say i've been doing this all wrong. My door way was built using a capsule (as shown in picture). After i adjusted the opening I then selected the rectangle selection tool and made my cut off point in the middle and deleted them. The base become a great clean cut. Yes I know Rochr has it completely different and I also know that mine will become a problem later on when grouping or something like that.....hence Rudy does it the right way, but, it just seemed to work for me at this time of my modeling career in C4D. LOL.

Dont know if my way is the right way, its just my way. :)

I've found that phrase is always so true in cgi graphics. AS

(rubbing hands happily) goody, tuts!

Thanks Rochr, (saving thread for indepth perusal later)

Oooh marc, I tried starting with a capsule too, but didn't get anywhere like as far as you did - love the colours in step 5!

AS, Ah, sounds quite good then, doesn't it?

I did a bit of greeble on an Octotoad - called it "GreebleToad" but we all have our faults. I'm not finished with it though, needs pipes I think. Did the O-Toad a few months ago, about time I started on the pipes I guess...

Message edited on: 02/23/2006 14:35

Thanks Rudy, always interesting to see how others approach things!