Oh and here's another brilliant idea for "Restricted Use" item creators. How about putting the words "Restricted Usage See Readme" in every thumbnail for said items.

I'm not the only one who's been collecting freebies for nearly 10 years now. Do you think I keep all the original zips and read me's handy on my hard drive instead of backed up on CD somewhere?  Even if they were handy on teh hard drive, would I know it was a restricted item without some kind of notice in the thumbnail without searching my hard drive for the correct readme for every freebie I used/ Oh hell no! When i create a render, I just start using whatever strikes my fancy from within my runtimes. I don't stop to think, Oh, I can't use this or I might infringe on someone else's intellectual property! Who does?

For what it's worth, as I've already stated. This is just a hobby for me. A creative outlet. I don't do commercial renders or content. I will say that all the money grubbing and merchandising of this hobby has tarnished it a bit for me. Merchants need to take that into account before the customer base just up and quits out of frustration.

Quote - Oh and here's another brilliant idea for "Restricted Use" item creators. How about putting the words "Restricted Usage See Readme" in every thumbnail for said items.

That's actually not a bad idea :)
Oh, I can't use this or I might infringe on someone else's intellectual property! Who does?

Actually, I do.  I keep all of my freebies in a separate area from purchases, as I do Merchant resources etc....I'm just that way.  As an artist and a merchant, it is very important for me to respect the rights of intellectual property...the old "do unto others" rule comes to mind. Just because very few of us do it, doesn't mean it's not what should be done, it just means people don't want to take the time to do it, some figure "oh they'll never catch me, no big deal" but for some it is a big deal. I've pretty much stopped downloading any freebies, simply because almost all of the work I do in Poser is commercial work, whether it be limited edition prints or texture work for a product. I just don't want to take the chance of it getting "mixed up" with things that are commercially viable, lest I end up on the receiving end of a witch hunt.

It all goes back to the beginning of the thread. The point is, instead of bitching and moaning about it, (and bitching and moaning about a freebie that isn't even at this site) he could have simply channeled that energy into asking Traveler for permission.

I mean, that's the whole point of this thread right?
 

at Runtime DNA too!  We have forums, site and store contact, and product support.

Quote - Oh and here's another brilliant idea for "Restricted Use" item creators. How about putting the words "Restricted Usage See Readme" in every thumbnail for said items.

That's actually not a bad idea :)
Oh, I can't use this or I might infringe on someone else's intellectual property! Who does?

Actually, I do.  I keep all of my freebies in a separate area from purchases, as I do Merchant resources etc....I'm just that way.  As an artist and a merchant, it is very important for me to respect the rights of intellectual property...the old "do unto others" rule comes to mind.

Well that's different. You are a merchant. How many hobbiests, which face it, most of us still are, spend THAT much thought and time an energy in differentiating our runtimes? I have over 10 various runtimes separated by theme's such as Poser 4 content, Poser 5 content, Poser 6 content, Sci-Fi content, Fantasy Content, COmicbook Content, 3rd Part Figures Content, DAZ content etcetera! That alone takes me constant maintenance to keep up with!!

I'm not a merchant, and don't strive to be, I doubt most of us do. If I even come close to striving to do anything here it's possibly to create a render that's worthy of commercialism. That's a high enough goal for me personally.  LOL! Anyone who's looked at my gallery knows how far I have to go for that to happen!

Quote - the old "do unto others" rule comes to mind.

Well that's different. You are a merchant.

No, it's not different, I wasn't always a merchant, haven't really been a merchant for that long.... and I've always done this. It's called respecting other's rights for their creation.  It effects me more as an artist and less as a merchant.  Hobbyist or not, you should still respect other people's creations, no matter what your view point is of your own.

And if you have over 10 various runtimes, separated by the list you gave, you have given way more thought to your runtimes, then I give to mine :) So you are essentially already spending a lot of time and effort separating them....what is one more runtime for the freebie content? 
 

Looks around confused I don't see Sturkwurk posting here ...

Miz:

With regard to "commerical use", I've stopped downloading any freebies that are restricted to non-commercial, specifically because I might misplace or loose the documentation. Some of my work is "personal" but some of it is commercial, and I agree that segregating the runtimes is a big PITA.

So I just don't use ANYTHING that's restricted to non-commercial use.

If one is an actual hobbyist, then everything they do is "personal/private" and there's no concern.

And if someone says, "Hey, I'd like to buy a poster of that!" and it does contain "restricted" material, you have to tell them no. I have. And yes I had to explain why. But I didn't sell it.

Now, may just be me, but I never ever under any stretch of the imagination considered the term "Commerical use" to mean I could sell the thing (shader, model, whatever)-and certainly not with my label on it to claim it was mine.  I don't know where that idea keeps coming from, but it isn't correct. -R

Yeah, what's one more hoop to jump through that sucks the joy out of my hobby for something that's not just a hobby but growing into a major waste of my time and resources? I don't particularly think I should have to jump through a billion freebie restrictive hoops just to enjoy what's a hobby and I find it pretty offensive that anyone should  think that I should!

Regardless of what you think, It is different for merchants who will be profiting from what they do with Poser Content. They SHOULD be mindful of all the distribution restrictions. Me, I just want to make better pictures.

It took me over a year and a half to separate my content into the (I didn't list all of them) 26 (I just counted) runtimes that I have when I came back to this hobby. Now if every download page had a disclaimer on the restrictions of content that I was aware of before downloading them, I might consider starting a new "Restricted Content" runtime. As it is now, I download freebies to the current runtimes I have setup and unzip and install them there. If I haven't seen the readme with restrictions before that point, I'm not gonna go back now and resort the 30+ gigs worth of runtimes for restricted content

As for the Sturkwurk VS Starkdog confusion thing, all I can say is I had just woken up from 4 hours of sleep, my mind was a bit fuzzy most likely. Not that it isn't fuzzy when I've had 8 hours and been awake most of the day, but there you have it!

Relik, if a friend of mine wanted a Poster of one of my renders I'd be too damned happy that they liked it to even consider charging them for it! Hell! I'd still give them one! If that's an unethical form of redistribution then the hell with it!

I don't think anyone is suggesting you have to keep track of it, particularly if you don't intend on selling your work. It's a moot point.

I'm not a Poser merchant but I have to keep track of what I can use or not use because I sell the resulting animations and illustrations. And I don't have time to keep track of it, so I just don't get anything that is restricted.

I grant that I still run some risk for all the stuff from the "olden days", but frankly, I can't think of a lot of it that I use now anyway, because the program has moved on, and either the stuff is outdated, or there is a better replacement.

But it's not accurate or fair to presume that only merchants really need to be concerned. Anyone who wants to be able to sell their work needs to know what rules apply to using someone else's content.-R

Quote - Regardless of what you think, It is different for merchants who will be profiting from what they do with Poser Content. They SHOULD be mindful of all the distribution restrictions. Me, I just want to make better pictures.

I

Never said that it wasn't different for merchants, I said it was from the very beginning...which is what all the hoopla was about Starkdog's statements :) Actually, the hoopla was because he happened to infer that Traveler, probably one of Poser's most prolific freebie creators and who has done so much for the Poser community, given more then enough of his free time in helping people learn the ropes and providing content free and otherwise......selfish.

Heh! Lady, you said a mouthful! In the end, 99.99999999% of these discussions would never occur if people were just more mindful of the inflamatory words they use, myself included!

That, my brother is the full truth :)

Indeed.

Quote - Looks around confused I don't see Sturkwurk posting here ...

Me either.  Did something get deleted? ::joins ghost in his confusion::

The confusion was mine folks, I started this morning with only 4 hours sleep posting to a thread while watching the paint drying slowness of a dynamic hair render for a new curly hair for Dork freebie that I hope to release and bewteen lack of sleep and render speed frustration, my mind's been a bit on the muddled side of reality. I confused Sturkwurk with Starkdog in my addled head.. Do me a favor and pretend you didn't see that ok? It's easy enough to do when I'm constantly having to error check my own arthriticly typo'd posts for errors with sleep deprivation while waiting for a dynamic render to finish!

Thank you for clearing that up >^_^<

funny how no one actually asks me.

Now for my merchant stuff, use it any way you want, just don't break the store liscense agreement.

For my old freebies, I've always asked that they not be used in commercial work.  In other words, I don't want you using my hero file to make money.  I have been asked in the past, and I have allowed it.  Can I actually enforce anything, probably not.

Doug

To the Real SlimSturkWurk, I wouldn't use your older stuff in a commercial work simply because it's mostly Superhero stuff that's already copyrighted! Not that I do commecial stuff anyway and again, can we pretend I didn't have that brain fart. Getting old is embarassing enough as it is! Sheesh!

I am lost here.... what was created?
The dials are built into the program.... If I photoshop an image, can I claim ownership of the image?  I thought if you reword text from an author it was still considered plagiarism. 

The subject in question is not a product.... For it to be a product, something must be produced.. 

If this were about a tutorial on how to use the shader room, that would count as a product.

Get a grip on yourselves..... 

Quote - I am lost here.... what was created?
The dials are built into the program.... If I photoshop an image, can I claim ownership of the image?  I thought if you reword text from an author it was still considered plagiarism. 

The subject in question is not a product.... For it to be a product, something must be produced.. 

If this were about a tutorial on how to use the shader room, that would count as a product.

Get a grip on yourselves..... 

I create images in Photoshop every day.  The brushes, patterns, styles, filters, pen tools, etc, are all parts of the Photoshop software, just as the nodes and parameter dials in Poser are part of that software.  Photoshop does not create those images; I do.
Poser does not combine those nodes, or pose that figure, or spin those dials to create that character. 
These programs do not create these files, they provide us with the tools to create these files.

The answer to your question is yes.  If you create an image in Photoshop, you do indeed own the copyright to that image.  However, if you were to use Photoshop to change an image that was created by someone else, and then give it away or sell it without permission from the original artist, that would be a violation of copyright.
As for whether or not material and pose settings created in Poser are actually copyright of the author of the file, or if the file format itself negates that, is something best answered by actual copyright attorneys, and not laymen such as ourselves. 
However; the original question had more to do with social repercussions of violating the terms of use of the item.

This brings us to the real issue here:

Even if it is legal to do something; does that mean it's also ethical?

When people create files to share with the Poser community, they have every right to ask that those who download the file show them the respect of adhering to the terms of use of that item.
If there  are restrictions on the use of that item for non commercial purposes, then those restrictions should be respected.  If there are distribution restrictions, then those restrictions should be respected.

When someone unjustly criticizes a well respected member of this community, someone who has earned this respect, through years of sharing his wealth of knowledge about this program, and provided so much to this community, as SELFISH, or GREEDY; DAMN SKIPPY it's gonna cause a "stink".

WOW!!  The fucking nerve of some of you to put words into my mouth!  I AM IN NO WAY TRYING TO RIP OFF TRAVELLER NOR RDNA!!!  I couldn't remember who had originally made these ( I was thinking Colm or Sydd), and was posing a question as a possible scenario in which I did not want to happen. 

In order to get a satin shader, you plug the clay shader node into the Alt diffuse, and tweak colors and settings.  Obviously, Traveller has already done this.  Now, say if I was to make a satin shader using the clay node plugged into the Alt diffuse, and had used different color and dial settings from the RDNA collection.  Since there would be some similarities in shaders, this brings up the issue of derivatives.  I'm working on stuff that I plan to sell, and am doing so LEGALLY in order to avoid a ByteMeOk or DarkWingZero situation.

Upon re-reading the readme, I misinterpreted RDNA's statements in the readme file; and for that, I apologize to Traveller and RDNA.  Yes, I should have contacted Traveller, and will do so shortly.  As for the rest of you, put down the pitch-forks and torches.  Mods, please lock this thread. -Starkdog