I am tired of seeing these "3D Artist" who keep using Poser.  So how does it work?  They take someone else's model, position it and all of a sudden they are a 3D Modeler?  If thats the case what the fuck am I doing spending endless nights and countless hours trying to learn the ropes of 3DS Max and Maya.  I didn't realize that all I had to do was use a real 3D Modelers work to make it in this field.   Maybe I should rearrage my priorties to label myself a professional "3D Artist" faster.  Renderosity has become flooded with these fucking people, I want to see work that started from fucking scratch.  I want to see what kind of talent is out there, not these fucks.  If you use poser great, then put it in the fucking POSER gallery and keep it out of our 3DS Max, Maya, and 3D Modeling galleries.  Leave those to the real Artist....   Bitches.

well maybe there is a little simple explanation...

Not everybody has $3700 for 3Dmax or Maya ... so ...

Be happy you can spent over $ 7.000 for the programs you have bought ... i do take you did buy it.

Dont think your better then others because you can make something from scratch...

Let people be happy with what they do and dont call em names in anyway....

And if you so good why not sell your supreme models to the one that can make em..you get money for it to buy ILM in time..

And using the F wordt all the time does not make your stament stronger it only shows that you'r "good" at modeling not good in using your words.... Chris

 

So photographers are no artists either because they work with models they didn't make but just pose and arrange?

Well okay chris, I like to say Fuck, if it offended you, maybe you should have checked the advisory.  As for having 7000 bucks, do your research, haven't you ever heard of Student Versions...  that could be a  reason for not selling my "supreme models" .  Art in any medium is an adventure to be taken, it is a journey to understand that which is unknown, it is used to express the feeling and emotions of ones life. It is not for the timmid (posers).  If you are afraid of that journey, if you are scared to reach into the world of experimentation and the unknown, then you aren't an artist and you dont belong in some of these galleries.. . of course that is only one mans opinion.  Look its simple, I understand that not everyone can to these things, shit, I'm still an amature.  I have watched a good friend of mine spend 250$ (not thousands) to buy the student version then he taugt himself the basics in a matter of weeks.  Poser is good... for posers.  These Posers just need to keep there "Models" in the POSER gallery and stop flooding the rest of them.  I work hard on my models and I hate the fact that these Posers push me off of the first page of a gallery with in a couple hours.    

well if thats the reason why you started this thread ... maybe its not the "posers" making the error

but R,O maybe the Moddelers gallerie should state Only 3D models build by yourself from scratch... or something like that ...but i just checked the 3Dmodeler gallerie it says :It is open to all 3D modeling applications but is restricted to displaying 3D models created by the member.

And when i check the 2 pages there i see only own build models ..so what was your point and what gallerie do you mean ?

And student versions are only for students so what i sayed stays not everybody has 3500. for 3Dmax ... be lucky you are a student ...

 

Chris

Quote - So photographers are no artists either because they work with models they didn't make but just pose and arrange?

1me·di·um

Pronunciation: 'mE-dE-&m

2e.material or technical means of artistic expression

 

we arent talking about photography, we are talking about 3dModeling.  The "3D Modeler".  Photography by nature is a form of art that doesnt even come close to being realitive to this topic.  In photography you capture what nature has handed you in the 3D world the artist creates it.  If you like to pose models and rearrage them, become a photographer.  But, if you insist on doing it in 3D then lets start a new medium, a new catogory of art, lets call it Phodoling. Simply put, these people just aren't  3D Artist or 3D Modelers, thier 3D Phodolers. Put your shit in the right gallery and quit leaving them in a gallery because it has more traffic. 

Okay, I'm all for free speech and on some levels I do understand your disappointment with some of the Poser community, however, that is not to suggest that anyone using the software is beyond hope of producing art worthy of mention. I have seen tons of art from the Poser community that actually impresses me...I've also seen twice as much that makes me wonder why some people even bother posting.  Point is, at the end of it all, it all has the right to be seen and regardless of my personal views, all of it can be considered art. Just because you or I may detest the naked woman with overly large breasts next to a dragon in a temple images doesn't mean that someone else doesn't appreciate it.  Poser is a tool, like anyother. The program can't be faulted for what people do with it. I've seen loads of people turn out complete garbage from programs like Max and Maya but because they made it from scratch does that make it better garbage? Not really.

What makes art interesting is the thought behind it, almost as much as how it's carried out. So who cares if you can model the Hulk? I can buy one that's at least as good but can you render it in a full environment with full post work and proper composition? There's more to Poser than just clicking a button. Many pros who look down on the software (and there are many who don't)  need to realize that just because you're given a pre-made model (like they are every day in the movie biz...you think animators make those things? nope)  doesn't mean you're work is done. You still have to set up your scene, set up your lights, setup your camera, your compostion, render passes, post work...there's a LOT involved in producing a quality Poser image...in fact...the same requirements in producing an image in any package! Who knew? 

Consider films like The Incredibles or Shrek, modelers make the characters and then send it off to animators...the animators then animate the characters to interact with a scene and send it off to lighting technical directors who light and texture the scene and render out the final image where it then goes into post work for full compositing. That's like four people working to get one scene done and only one of them having anything to do with actually creating the models involved. So does that mean all those other people are jus "posers" who don't deserve their jobs or the acclaim the films they've worked on have recieved? Of course not. So why, when you look at a Poser image which has gone through the same process, with the exception of the fact only one person worked on it, is that image any less appreciated?  Be easy, these people...the ones who care enough to put a scene together...deserve their place in the gallery. Besides, if views are all you wanted, you really miss the whole point of the galleyr anyway in my opinion. Afterall, we're supposed to be here to make eachother better artists, not rip on someone because they can't model worth a damn and can only express their ideas using pre-made materials....

Oh and on a side note, some people are better at modeling vehicles than they are at modeling people, so if Poser offers people with ease, why can't they use it in their 3DStudio Max, Maya or XSI scenes? Seems silly to gripe over this, really.

And i think its the amount of program used that makes it where to put it... i one makes a whole city in MAX and for his render he puts a poser model in front of it ..should it be in Max or poser gallerie...

Now you deside max or poser 90% of the work is done in max, 10% in poser but the poser figure is in front...

But when all you care about is the views from the gallerie ..well learn learn and learn, so when starwars 7,8,9 come out your name can be on the credit roll...

Chris

Every one tries to tie this arguement into the filming industry, okay next time you see a CG Movie and those credits go screaming by, try to name 3 modelers 10 minutes later... it wont happen, however try to remember the name of the production agency or the director or producer.  Chances are you will.  They are the one that make it all happen.  Sure they use a library of assets but those assests were created from scratch.  These are guys that work in teams for those agencies, thats different, that agencies name becomes your own.  One of the largest reasons for this thread was to help some of these artists, and if those targeted read this they will understand.  They will get it.  They are the one who will have that feeling, that "I wish I could do more", they are the one that when they show a Peice to their work to friends or family they hate the fact that they have to say...  "I did it in poser".  They want to make their own characters.  Make your own characters, build your own library.  Earn that sense of accomplishment.  Dont piggy back off of someone else. 

 

And Chris, feel lucky Im in school?  shit man, its not like I drew the right numbers for a lotto, I decided to go.  I am a grown man with a morgage and a family.  Lucky?  Its a pain in the ass, but I love it and I am doing it. 

Oh, Bar-Code, the 3D Modeling gallery is only for models built from scratch, as we're looking at the model and not the scene. The other galleries aren't though.  Just an FYI for everyone, really. 

Dont tell me that any of you out there arent here to get your work shown, of course Im worried about views, yeah okay, I put 200 million dollars into this movie and I dont want people to see it...  I havent missed any point of this gallery.   My bitch is with those who flood a gallery with some character they bought.

back to you Chris, if the focal point of your scene is a poser, well, kind of self explainitory dont you think?

And Chris, feel lucky Im in school?  shit man, its not like I drew the right numbers for a lotto, I decided to go.  I am a grown man with a morgage and a family.  Lucky?  Its a pain in the ass, but I love it and I am doing it. 

Well so am i ..still you can feel lucky you can get max for Student price and get classes in modeling.

I can affort the classes still i have to learn the tricks and trades of 3D modeling myself from try and error and the only thing i have are manuals and this community..

I realy did wish i can get 3dMax for $250.  but i got to do with HEX etc etc that cost a lot less.

So feel lucky anyway ..

Im 41 so i know what your saying... but i still think you going about it in the wrong way..

Chris

Teyon wrote:Oh, Bar-Code, the 3D Modeling gallery is only for models built from scratch, as we're looking at the model and not the scene. The other galleries aren't though.  Just an FYI for everyone, really. 

 

Did i not say that  ? ! ;-} i even copy/ paste the rule from the gallerie ...

C. 

Attached Link: http://www.kolbyjukes.com/

Well, I'm all for helping folks but tone plays into that too and initially, you let your tone play against your desire to help. It came off more as an angry rant, which, as I said before I can also understand to an extent.  I would like to point out (and he's gonna kill me for this) that some of today's top modelers, like Kolby Jukes of Raven Software, started out using Poser.  Heck, I even started out using Poser and now, I'm giving back to that community and making a little cash on the side to boot.  Also, it's not unheard of for studios to re-use materials, Raven does it for the games they make and to be honest...even a Poser model had to be created before it got into Poser to begin with, eh?  :)  Look, I feel ya, I do, there's alot of people using Poser for all the wrong reasons but there are those who are using it to learn some of the more important things like setting up a scene and lighting, things modelers tend to screw up royaly.  Having worked at LEGO, I've met a few guys who, after a hard day of making toys, would go home and make a fully textured model...great modeling but they couldn't texture worth a cent. Who's to say spending a little time practicing that wouldn't have been good? Now, who's to say that that's exactly what some of these Poser users see Poser as? I'm sure they're the minority but still...people looking to get into modeling will find their way, good or ill and if Poser happens to be a stepping stone, great! If not, that's okay too. At the end of it all, it's where you finish that counts, not where you start.

Sorry Bar-code, mis-read it. My bad.

hey chris, check out Alias, they give away a free unlimited trial version of Maya.  No 90 day shit, unlimited, if you are really interested in learning how to do this stuff, you wont be frightened of the watermark... ITS FREE

At the end of it all, it's where you finish that counts, not where you start.

Point well taken, its been real, model on...  and yes by any means

 

Later

I second the Maya freebie! Anyone interested in learning Maya should really grab hold of it. I think XSI has a similar tool but it's only for modifying games like Half-Life, so I'm not sure how fully functional it is. Still, the Maya PLE is a no brainer in my book. I mean, I don't like working in Maya for modeling (I prefer Silo above all) but it's a great tool for those who get into it. Good call DarkSkies!

Thnx for the tip about Maya .. i just have printed out"in a copyshop" 30Kilo "60 pounds" of manuals from programs i bought.. so i stay with them for now :}

I only wish for a copy of 3dMAX, i worked with MAX for 2 months on a company system..

My 2 first freebee's where made in max and i didnot had a clue how to use it.. still my 2 SF scene where verry welcome here so they can't be that bad :}

Now i work a lot in HEX2 its diffrent and not as good as 3dMAX but hey i paid 1.99 for it :}

the only thing i realy mis in other programs is the UVW unwrap from max ... others can do it or are realy bad in it :{

Chris

Mmmm well free is free duhhh ... Maya Freeversion .. where is it ? what URL.

Chris

Attached Link: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=6902573

Oops. I'm slipping these days. Here's a link to the page where you can get a copy.

danke, merci, toda raba, dankje, thank  you !!

Chris

Teyon and Chris,

You guys might not have liked the way I started this thread but as Teyon put so elgently, it's where you finish that counts, not where you start.  I hope you, Chris, will begin the journey of a 3D modeler, I hope you learn fast and learn well, I hope that you will gain the feeling that you, yourself have created a masterpiece and that you earned that credit. 

Model on,

DarkSkies

Agreed! And both of you, please, keep posting! WIPS, thoughts on modeling, any old thing that tickles your fancy. Discussion is the best tool we have for learning and I will never silence anyone (unless they get really nasty), so please, keep posting your work and your thoughts.  :)

Attached Link: http://excalibur.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1251176

I already have that feeling when i see "POSERS"  :} using my freestuf... and most of the time they give me credit for the model but if they dont i give it myself ... if you check the link you see a F1 future model i made in HEX and i try to make it with a minimum of diffrent parts... the main body is 1 part a sphere modeled  to a "full" f1 body incl. the wing on the back, side pods ... i know the feeling of making things from scratch.. but thnx for the heads up

Chris

      One thing to model you don't need Max or Maya. ther eare pleanty of free or low cost options out there. You can add a inexpensive rendering package and there you go. Wings Blender Anim8tor are all free.

      As far as poseur being the number one thing here well it is a poseur site. That is part of the terrain here. It is kind of sad that many do not even bother to appreaciate what is made in other packages and pictures without naked people.

I used poser for a while too but I always felt my images were not my own so I stopped. Many people can model some great stuff but have difficulties with people or just dont want to spend all the extra time to make a person for their pic so they use poser to put a pilot in their plane or someone to stand by there car etc. I always felt that is what the program is meant for. Not for computer enhanced softcore porn which is what there is alot of here.

This is a big community here you can ignor the poseur stuff or you can also find another site with more like minded people.

I just started modelling in Hexagon and Shade, and I find it liberating (from having to buy other people's things) to make some stuff I need, particularly for human figures, like clothing, hair, other odd bits.  I tried Wings 3D and MetasequoiaLE, but I don't seem to use those very well.

I have been using Poser for couple of years before this, and well yeah to me, it's like playing with dolls in 3D.  And then one day I woke up and felt the urge to do more than just make up an interesting picture to render.  So, I really tried building something from zero.  I certainly can't do the more complicated 3D modelling - yet.  But it's a lot of fun amd I hope pure Poser users who haven't tried modelling will do so sometime.  ( Poser scene composition and 3D modelling are hobbies for me.)

But please, there's really no need to start a public thread with language like that.

And, sure, I'd be still be buying Poser-useable products made by others, If I think those items are interesting enough for me.

So, yes, people should read Gallery specifications more carefully and post with the appropriate classification(s).  And yes, I find it beginngin to be very tiresome to look at NVIATWS - yawn such a no-brainer render subject, blah....

 

"...so they use poser to put a pilot in their plane or someone to stand by there car etc. I always felt that is what the program is meant for."

Yeah it's useful to get a figure or two into a scene if only to set the scale for your own models. Get the pose right in Poser then export it into your rendering app. It definitely has its uses.

I have already been called the POSER anti-christ this week and have put about 20 Rosity members off side, so climbing into this thread seems like an obvious extention to the argument.  

Most, but NOT all poser images are CRAP. The Naked Vicky syndrome, like a nasty virus has infected the user base. The victims, in there delirium believe they are ARTISTS creating something worth while. Fellow sufferers re-enforce this delusion by posting comments such as "WOW" and "You are an amazing artist."  It is this re-enforcement that creates most of the problems. They actually believe it, and feel anybody with a contrary view doesn't know what they are talking about.

A woman sitting on a throne in lingerie, with vampire teeth is not my idea of the queen of the damned. And a naked woman carrying a big gun is no assassin. But in the Poser world each is par for the course. Throw in a "waiting for the lover" image and you just about have the full range of most users images.

Now I have to admit, as a male member of the species I have no aversion to young, and not so young ladies forgetting to put their clothes on. Photos of these poor unfortunates have been known to grab my attention. But poser images are about as exciting as my daughters Barbie dolls. Creating Poser images is little different to dressing them up and posting the images.

 

omg...so you're saying barbi dolls are'nt sexy and exciting?....shame on you

max is max, poser is poser. two different progs for two distinct purposes. both can use the other to good effect if used properly. i'm still not doing either properly lmao.

if i had a question it would be......what would be the reaction if a person made a model in max took it to poser, boned and textured it, did a render and placed said render in the max gallery. would you know max was used without being told? i presume most of the renders use stuff that was modelled in a 3d prog like max,  lets say one of them are using a prop made in one of them by the preson doing the render. lets say it's a beach ball prop. if we stick to the letter of what can be posted in the gallery does this comply. .again how would you know if no one says prop  made by me?

 

billy

it's okay barbie, don't listen. they don't know what they're taling about.

I think that since the Poser gallery became...."for images RENDERED in Poser only"  alot of folks have starting posting to the galleries of their Renderer of choice.  I know this has impacted the Lightwave gallery.  I don't much choose to look at the Poser gallery, anymore.  But, when I am looking through the galleries for other more serious applications, seeing a bunch of Posers, with no disclaimer that they are using Vicki or Michael or whoever, really bothers me.

"Dont tell me that any of you out there arent here to get your work shown, of course Im worried about views, yeah okay"

I wouldn't post to Renderosity in hopes of getting my work shown.  I sometimes show what I've finished in the LW gallery, but, mostly don't post here, period.  Maybe, one day I will be good enough to be "shown", hopefully at Raph, or on the frontpage of CGTalk.  Until then, I'm pretty happy doing what I do and sharing with real world folks.

THE POINT OF PUTTING YOUR WORK ANYWHERE IS FOR OTHERS TO SEE IT.  ART IS A STYLE OF COMMUNICATION.  WANTING TO SHARE YOUR IMAGES WITH OTHERS IS WANTING THEM TO LOOK AT THEM.  ART IS WHAT IT IS, COMMUNIACTION.  IF YOU ARENT WORRIED ABOUT BEING SEEN, THEN YOU ARE A HOBBYIST.  BIG DIFFERENCE.  FOR MANY IN THE POSER FEILD TO ME, ARE HOBBYIST.  MAYBE I DID MISUNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF RENDEROSITY.  I GUESS CHOOSING ANOTHER SITE WITH STRICTER POLICIES IS SOMETHING WORTH RESEARCHING.  POSER SUCKS, THAT IS MY OPINION.  IT IS FOR THOSE WITH NO TALENT AND NO PATIENCE.  I HAVE SEEN SOME PRETTY AMAZING POSER PICTURES OUT THERE, AND I WAS VERY IMPRESSED, BUT I WASN'T LOOKING AT THE POSER'S WORK, SURE THEY DID A GOOD JOB OF MAKING SOMEONE ELSES ART LOOK GREAT, BUT THE IMAGES BELONG TO THOSE WHO MADE THEM, EVERYTHING ELSE IS PLAGARISIM WITH PERMISSION .  IF YOU PLAN ON WAITING FOR A DEBUTE ON THE FRONT PAGE OF SOMETHING BIG.  A BIT OF ADVISE;

"THERE ISN'T ANY MASTERPIECE OR LEGACY THAT TOOK LESS THEN A LIFE TIME TO CREATE."

depends what you mean by legacy. some only take a few minutes to create.

 

billy

 

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1258173

Poser does irritate me when it comes to doing yrou own charaacters and building them up in a modeling app and noone reallycares about the difference or even knows. And make it worse if you post it in a non poser gallery you can hear the crickets chirping.  It is true everyone here is her eso they can get some otehr people to see their work. But the most popular work ends up being 15 minute bigg boob poser masterpeices. If soem of the greatest character modelers posted here which many don't anymore their work will be only marginally received even though their talent far exceeds and eclipses those who only use poser.

I don't use poser because I feel I don't own my art if I use someone elses stuff and poser someone did create that and you are showing it and taking credit for it like you made it yourself.  Just thought I woudl show my latest character (my avitar) modeled in Wings I think he is pretty cool.

oh my god dude!!!!!

you need to get laid!!!!!!!!!!!, smoke something!!! drink something!!!! just chill out!

i can picture your face getting all read and veins popping out! dont die on us now! you gave me some good laughs in this post!!

and i have an idea........ if you are soooooo good and your modeling and you are sooooo pissed off because it doesnt get seen.... how about you have your own damn gallerie showing somewhere! or better!!! make your own damn website and post you own pictures on it and make a big diclamer on the from page that says: I DO NOT LIKE PEOPLE! I DO NOT LIKE POSER! I AM FULL OF SHIT!

if you hate all the poser stuff stop going to the site!!!!!!!!

i would love to see some of your 'made from scratch models' and give my opinion on it! i am going to search the galleries right now after i post this!

and who cares if you use a model made by some one else! if that person did not want you to use it or gets offended that you dont put a credit on the image then he should not be selling the model in the first place! its to make money!!!!! plain and simple!!!!! i do think you done understand the purpose of renderosity!

IT IS FOR ALL  ARTISTS!!!!!! if you create from scrath, if you render,if you photograph!!

go and tell RGUS in the poser gallery he isnt and artist! go tell blackhearted he isnt an artist! go tell saintfox she isnt and artist!!!! you will get bitch slapped before you know it!

so please dude! chill out and have an ice cream or something!

"THERE ISN'T ANY MASTERPIECE OR LEGACY THAT TOOK LESS THEN A LIFE TIME TO CREATE."

so what you're saying is masterpieces are limited to one per person, if at all?

if you're a professional artist, the pint of putting your work somewhere is usually to sell it.

art is not a style of communication. it's a form or original expression. language is a form of communication, art in the form of communication is not art paradoxical i know but it isn't.  even comics..the words in them are the communication.  the artwork are just pictures to stimulate the imagination....art is what it is.....and what would that be. what is art? is art something only modellers do? how do you make your modells.  did you design the software perhaps?  did you design the computer the software runs on perhaps. did you perhaps discover electricity? or is it that you work off the backs of other peoples endeavours. we all work off the backs of others. modellers are no exception. without his subject the mona lisa would never have been painted.

da vinci copied an image and said it was his own...a bit like people in poser really. the point is, the image they create is there own image. no matter how crasse or beautiful the image is theirs.  when you model a figure do you use reference material. a pic of a face perhaps. maybe an outline drawing, what was it drawn with. did you burn the would to make charcoal or perhaps was it a pencil someone else made? did you use phot references for texture? did you go straight into modelling or did you use daz or poser first and wanted something more? many that model started out with poser. as for an opinion ...thats all it is, it carries no weight enforces no belief but for the one who has it. it can be shared but even then it's nothing more than an idle thought.

if wwhat you say about plagarism is true. as a modeller you are as big a plagarist as the poser artist. you used the work of others, to learn your trade. you looked at wire frames and meshes, you copied tutorials, you used other peoples advice. you used a program someone else made to create your artwork. 

i take it you have qualifications in differentiating between a hobbyist and an artist.  why can't people be both? can you define what exactly art is?  or is it anything that has nothing to do with poser?

i notice you say,...for me many in the poser field are hobbyists, does this mean you conced that some are indeed artists?  will you , allowing that what ever you say won'y change anyingthing in the rendo world saty or go. does seeing poser pics pics offend you that badly.

billy

 

 

amen brother!!!!!!!!!!!

"THE POINT OF PUTTING YOUR WORK ANYWHERE IS FOR OTHERS TO SEE IT.  ART IS A STYLE OF COMMUNICATION.  WANTING TO SHARE YOUR IMAGES WITH OTHERS IS WANTING THEM TO LOOK AT THEM.  ART IS WHAT IT IS, COMMUNIACTION.  IF YOU ARENT WORRIED ABOUT BEING SEEN, THEN YOU ARE A HOBBYIST.  BIG DIFFERENCE.  FOR MANY IN THE POSER FEILD TO ME, ARE HOBBYIST"

You, my friend, are still a student.  You have yet to learn that the real world pays alot more bills than the Renderosity gallery.  Or, perhaps, you simply shot off your temper before actually READING my post.  Let me reiterate:  I show my work to folks in the "REAL" world....some of us actually live there. I truly don't think posting to the Renderosity gallery is a major career assist.  On the other hand, being allowed to post at Raph, or, making the Headlines of CGTalk is a career assist, as is getting featured in a 3d mag.

As a student, you should know enough, by now to do your homework.  I'm not in the Poser field.  My main app is Lightwave.

I looked at your gallery.  I saw alot of columns.  How are you at doing organics?  I'd sure like to see some of your original figures posted.

Have a great day.  Take a deep breath, grasshopper, and smell the roses.

Pop...Pop...Poppi!!!

ah yes, young grasshopper, I have been an fine art student for 10 years now, I hold a degree but I continue to go because I love it.  I have hundreds of life and landscape oil painting hanging in hundreds of houses.  I have done thousands of storyboard sketches for Baxter Productions.  Not to mention my own collection that will never go out (as long as I am still alive anyways) You may think that you can preach to me about "what is Art?" or  "art is an expression not communication"  well, my reply to that... yum, yeah Art is communication of an expression.  Its not rocket science you know, maybe you should head back to school.  To reply to Billy, yes there is some Poser work I have liked, and to reply to ruana, RGUS is one of them (for the most part).  Even though I enjoy looking at there images, I still look at them and want to congradulate the one who built the model.   Im not looking for little miss vickson showign some tittie, come on   have any of you even used a live model.  Porn is not art.  I can't stand this "its all relative" shit.  Damn you Eistein. 

WHAT IS ART SUPPOSED TO MEAN ANYWAYS, I SAW A PLASTIC BAG FLYING AROUND IN THE WIND AND THOUGHT...WOW THATS ART;  NNNOOOOOOO!!!!!  THAT APPRECIATION HERES ART...

Art

Pronunciation: 'ärt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin art-, ars -- more at ARM
1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2 a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : LIBERAL ARTS b archaic : LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5 a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6 : decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter
synonyms ART, SKILL, CUNNING, ARTIFICE, CRAFT mean the faculty of executing well what one has devised. ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power <the art of choosing the right word>. SKILL stresses technical knowledge and proficiency <the skill of a glassblower>. CUNNING suggests ingenuity and subtlety in devising, inventing, or executing <a mystery plotted with great cunning>. ARTIFICE suggests technical skill especially in imitating things in nature <believed realism in film could be achieved only by artifice>. CRAFT may imply expertness in workmanship <the craft of a master goldsmith>.

 

PAY ATTENTION TO THIS PART; 

 ART, SKILL, CUNNING, ARTIFICE, CRAFT mean the faculty of executing well what one has devised. ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power.

Im not looking for little miss vickson showign some tittie, come on   have any of you even used a live model.

 yup, many times.  I didn't even stand up for Poser.  It bothers me greatly to see Posers in the Max, Lightwave, etc. galleries.

However, being a devil's advocate, here.....If you can't do organics (many folks have problems doing them) how are you going to add a person or a creature to your Max render if someone wants one?

ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power.

I paid attention to that part and still I am unsure how it applies to POSER.

ART implies a PERSONAL, (Of the first person.) UNANALYZABLE(Lacks the ability to be studied)CREATIVE POWER(The ability to create.)

POSER. Taking a Poser character. Applying, poses, clothing, props and backgrounds to create an image.

ART implies a PERSONAL,: Poser uses a set of characters NOT created by the 'ARTIST'. Poses are created by less than 10 percentage of users.  With clothing, props,and backgrounds this percentage fall away even further.

UNANALYZABLE. Poser users post credits which allows a person to ANALYZE the percentage of PERSONAL input. By ANALYZING these credits the lack of PERSONAL input become obvious. 

CREATIVE POWER. Coming up with a list of items to stick together may be some people's idea of CREATIVE POWER. If the list produces an image that advances the art form, or is TOTALLY original then it is CREATIVE. If it produces an image that can be catagorised with a term such as NAKED VICKY then NO.

As I have stated before I LOVE good Poser Images. It is the general abuse of the program that annoys me. My wish is more users pushed past the CUT AND PASTE stage, and tried creating some part of the image themselves.

i never asked what does art mean, i never asked for an example of art.

and art in any form doesn't have to be shown or communicated to be art. it simply has tp be an extention of someones mind brought into the real world through a physical medium whether it's good art art or bad art is irrelevant.. i personally would have said art is a manifestation of of an original thought that creates something new  and affects a personal awareness that the artist or perveyor of art can't totally explain but can enjoy or dislike

i asked you what is art and you give me a dictionary definition. nothing of your own...is that plagarism i wonder? of all the definitions you copied the main one i like is unanalyzable creative power. something someone using any medium can have including poser.

hope you don't take all this crap i'm wring as personal and i admire that you defend your stance,  something  i seem to be doing (defending my opinion) .while everyones entitled to it it doesn't make it right.  i even agree to some extent with what you say. it's the balnket statement that people who use poser aren't artissts or can't create art i find hard to accept...i suppose i don't really have to accept what you say but hey i'm human like you lol.

billy

i think the use of the word unanalyzable means that art itself like love or hate can't be scientifically analyzed, that it is more than the sum of its parts and whatever we say art is won't or can't convey what art is.

the poser artist saying whos work he used isn't analyzing but informing us of content.

what the poser artist does is a create or try to create a unique image using a well known model.

whether or not they succeed is another matter. if you do liofe studies you use a model. some artists say who the model is...whistlers mother for example, some don't, the mona lisa, though we have qn idea who she is. big tits vicky is a model and  thast all. how the poser depicts her, where he depicts her, with what he depicts her in or around is all analyzable but as an art form it isn't. not with certainty at least.

billy

Okay, here is my definition of Art, and I think your definition is a good one but I also think you mix engineering with designing.

(visual) Art: A visual medium in which, created by an individual, to convey or communicate an idea or emotion through means of form overweighting fuction that will consume time, money, energy and consentration to realize.  An addiction. 

 

Leonardo DeVinci said it best... "only 10% of a painting is painted"  

@Billy423uk: The artistic merits of Poser images is an issue I debate all the time. The lack of originality is the usual thrust of my argument. But the comment " ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power." was just to pretentious to leave alone.

As for you question "What is art?" I have spent too many years looking at things called ART to have an opinion. A pile of bricks with a feather on top. Tie dyed fabric hung on fishing line. A painting created with a paint ball gun. WHAT IS ART?

The little brother to that question is just as vexing. When isn't something art?

Good one with the what isn't Art. 

i love that word...fuction.  sometimes i see a piece of engineering as a work of art. i used to collect swords (oriental) and all had the same length blade with the same curve and hilt. some of them were works of art to me whilst others were mere replicas.many would just see two swords that looked the same but i saw two objects that different in many ways. ways i can't really describe. the bluing of the metal, the patena of age, a heavy dullness that shined brighter than new steel.

i think the artistic merits of any art can be argued against or for.  i love trying to model in max. and i'm still pretty crap at it. very unartistic by my own standards. i do see lots of stuff modelled in it that others think of as art.  when i look i often only see a model,  sometimes a great model but is it art.

as for the what is what isn't art battle. the person who said....i know nothing about art but i know what i like summed it up best for me. i'm with you on the brick and other stuff not being art as such. often the critics tell what they think we should think art is and  those kind of critics in the main probably couldn't find a piece of art with an art detector. for me art is defined with the little old lady or the small boy that looks at something that makes  the heart beat faster, or something similar.  more often than not i look at a picture and think this isn't art  other than the reverse.  again one of the reasons why art is unanalyzable is because of this very reason. one mans art is another mans garbage. even with an open mind i couldn't see a cow cut in half and placed in two formaldahyde tanks so you can walk through it as art. an experience i could agree to but art. i saw no creativity in it. i know of others who did though. i certainly saww the metaphorical value of it  but i never saw the art of it. i then look at some of art and craft furniture makers of the english turn of the  20th century and see art everywhere with in it. the period after that , art nouvoe (sp) was for me loaded with artistic design and very artful.  some  of the simple shaker furniture for me has that purity of the simple line much good art has. so yep maybe i do see art in engineering and design as much as in a painting. and that maybe why i see some art in what poser users create. not withstanding all the garbage i see everywhere from painting to max to poser.

 

billy

 

 

 

       Art is a personal thing. But back to the poser thing. Poser to me is like takign a photo. Here is my example lets say ther eis a sculptor for sake of argument lets call him Michaelangelo. He make a famous sculptor lets call it David. If you take a photo of it it is your photo of his sculpture. If you go out and buy it, it is still his sculpture it is his creation everyone knows that. So the miracle of creation is where the ownership of the thing lies. Just like that I don't claim to have written the software that I use despite buying and paying for it it is still not my creation. My creation is the models my art. With poser you are in a digital realm taking pictures of others sculptures.

    I have worked with poser in teh past and I find it sort of disapointing because ther eis nto real miracle of creation. No "Its Alive" moment. that is one of the reasong I got away from it. As far as the wiscracks about peoples sex lives are concerned shows a lack of class and also shows how empty yoru arguments are by making disparaging remarks about thing you have no knowledge of.

Has anyone ever heard the phrase art imitates life and life imitates art, or art supercedes science and science leads art. If design/engineering is supposed to be a balance between form and function. Then art deco has tilted that balance too far. Look at what it has lead to in the artistic firm. If we're talking about the evolution of art, you need to look closer at the roots of art and how that ties into your daily life. This is without mention of your car, table, couch... love seat:). A drawn picture is communication in it's purest form. Look at topography for example. Written Words are the oldest art form in existence. What have the artists been teaching us over the years? What is it that you are supposed to learn from the drawn picture or written word. The drawn picture has evolved along the written word. huh. Did you notice a shift in art, around, lets say 1945. "Einstein's space is no closer to reality than van Gogh's sky." Arthur Koesrtler. Could you imagine what Esher could do with MAX or MAYA? Maybe even van Gogh with Photoshop and Einstein with proE. These were gentlemen that could never submit to another starting their picture. The would never let someone else’s work be their focal. Poser isn't using inspiration its using someone else’s shit. I'll tell you what, if this thread offends you then maybe you should think of asking me if you can use my shit for your pictures... free advertising for me. You know who I am and you know who to see and use my work. Call it a gift. But a gift with stipulations. 

Did Michealangelo forge his own chissle.  No a blacksmith did, did a modeler write the program to make the digital sculpture, no.  A programmer did.  Hense a poser is not a modeler.  They are a poser.

Look.
As technology advances, so do the tools. Poser, like it or not, is an advanced peice of software for artists to compose thier works. A time will come when modeling tools themselves will advance beyond anything we can now conceive. Who will need a modeler to create a character when a person can just be "scanned" ? Who will need a modeler when 2d drawings and paintings can just be "morphed" into the world of 3d? But, back to the point.
Why, as a modeler, would you want to talk bad about the very people that love your work enough to buy it? Say all Poser users decided to start modeling thier own props and characters. What then? What would happen to the Renderosity Marketplace? What would us modelers then do? Just do it for fun I guess.
I think you need to take a chill pill and try to appreciate someone else's art instead of bashing it for taking up all your space.
Sorry if this was random and made no sense but I am sleepy and I am tired of this thread. Can we PLEASE just let it roll down and of the screen, please? I am suprised that it has even remained open. Hats off to Teyon for his open mindedness.(is mindedness a word?)