I will be very interested to see if E-on is going to be showing a really "break-through" new version of Vue in August- but as far as REALISM is concerned- they will still have some extremely serious competition from Planetside's Terragen 2.

If you haven't seen some of the latest "alpha" renders- take a look at this collection. Many are so PHOTO-REAL- it's really hard to believe! Maybe this will be where Vue 7 or 8 will be someday...

Of course- Terragen 2 is STILL not ready for release- it's also still "someday"...

http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/v/tg2gallery/?g2_page=1

In all honesty, I'm not sure why the ability of software to emulate a photograph/camera is so important?  You can find spectacular photos in something like Arizona Highways Magazine, or visit Utah's Canyon Lands National Monument -- terragen works pale in comparison to the real thing, or photos of the real thing.

I can show you photos of Navaho sandstone formations that are absolutely incredible.

Personally, I hope Vue 6 simply allows much more artistic control and stability, to allow one to create art, not simply emulate what nature has already done.

i do like terregen, it was a great freebie, however i don't see anything there that vue can't do and can't infact do better! also i am curious to know what they mean by alphas, as if they are just alpha planes that would mean you are only getting photo's of trees/ plants, to put in your scenes, which would indicate that it still won't support obj. based prop imports.

"Alpha" refers to the stage of software code- Alphas go out to hard-core testers who know how to deal with technical issues and report bugs in a coherent way.  "Beta's" is what Vue ships out to its customers so that they can discover whats not working...and it will be fixed in next major release. heh!- (So Vue 6 bugs will be fixed in Vue 7...)... just kidding- sort of... (most Vue 6 bugs will be fixed by Vue 6.2 probably...)

Or- in the Terragen "Alpha"- you may be mis-understanding what they are saying- T2 uses billboards (which are like smart alpha planes) and "instances"- but also imports 3D model objects as well- like X-Frog plants. This is basically the same technology Vue uses in it's Eco-systems. Vue's in-house "Solid-Growth" plants however allow greater variations in EFX- and is of course E-on's main "ace card"- which is why Vue 6 will have an even MORE evolved plants and eco-system- which it of course needs to stay ahead of Terragen and Carrara in that area of EFX...

It sounds like there is no need to buy Terragen or Vue... just subscribe to Arizona Highways magazine- scan those pictures into your computer and post them in the Renderosity Gallery...

i wish they would just sort out vue5 really as i don't think i would be very happy upgrading to 6 yet as i only just got Vue5 infinate not long ago, and the only thing that is bothering me about it, is that it one day it will allow a billion or so polygon renders and the next day you are lucky if you can render a scene with 26000 polys,if they wanted to be nice about it they could give all present infinate owners 6 for free(they offered that to new customers not long ago),i have doubts that vue6 will work like a dream straight out the pack, i expect that you will need to wait for a few builds to be done also!!! shame really!!!! i don't want to rely on Arizona highway magazine anymore!!!(sniff)

You can't win here, Veritas.... LOL! Thanks for providing the note, and the link. Terragen 2 does look great! The water surfaces are much more "realistic" - large waves in front, small waves in the distance, and a lot of surface variation as wind and uneven subsurface would bring about in the real world. Much more realistic, and more pleasing to look at. The distribution of snow on the terrain is very, very impressive - looks more natural. I don't see why I can have both programs (Vue and Terragen) when TS2 is finally released. These would give a person a lot of power!

The clouds look amazing. Are they generated by Terragen or is it a picture? I am talking about the picture in the 1st page of the link on the bottom right hand corner. If they are generated by Terragen what is the secret.

*It sounds like there is no need to buy Terragen or Vue... just subscribe to Arizona Highways magazine- scan those pictures into your computer and post them in the Renderosity Gallery...

• Or simply visit Arizona -- or any other place on earth in the spring-time, do some photos, then post them in the Renderosity Gallery -- for those who do not live life vicariously through a computer.

The Vue forum is so...filled with adolescent chatter and viewpoints.  I wasn’t aware that my comments would be meet by such an intolerant mindset…(death to any opinion or religion that dares contradict my own!)

My point was Art vs Photographic-like reproduction.

Quote -
In all honesty, I'm not sure why the ability of software to emulate a photograph/camera is so important?

Actually, it is very important when making independent films. You can’t always shoot on location but if you can make a moving shot in Vue or Terragen that establishes that you are arriving at a certain location and then cut to an indoor shot, everyone believes that the indoor action is now taking place at that location. It is a lot cheaper to render Arizona then to go to Arizona. ;-)

I agree the realism in those Terragen 2 shots is pretty amazing. If anyone thinks Vue can do that I’d love to see a tutorial on how. I just started using Vue and have a lot to learn.

~jr

Quote - My point was Art vs Photographic-like reproduction.

I certainly understand your point of view. I think we all strive to some degree for photorealism.

I agree with you, while realism is important, so are the features of a program for providing maximum flexibility in order to achieve the intention of the artist.

I'm sure Terragen 2.0 will be nice, though I doubt I'll spend the time trying it out. IMO, it takes a lot of time to become really proficient with a new tool-- to understand the subtleties and how to best use it.

For me the question is whether to learn a little bit about a lot of tools, or dig deep into one. I've always preferred choosing a tool and sticking with it. I guess I could go on and collect Maya, Max, Lightwave, SI, Modo, Hexagon, Silo, Sketchup, etc., but would the resulting product (my art) be any better? I don't think so.

Of course, the situation does change if you do 3D for a living, but then I expect you would have the time to learn new tools.

I have a simple test to see if a rendering tool is worth spending time with. Just check out the best results in the galleries of it's users. If they are of sufficient quality, then the tool has the potential to create what I want. That is the case with Vue. I see nothing in the Terragen gallery as impressive as many of the renderings by Erka and others here.

Lastly, when reading messages in this forum, I sometimes look at the gallery of the person posting. Monsieur Boliou, you certainly enjoy creating a story with your pictures!

best,
Chipp

Quote - If anyone thinks Vue can do that I’d love to see a tutorial on how. I just started using Vue and have a lot to learn.

For starters, you can check out:
http://camelot.renderosity.com/tut.ez?Form.ViewPages=439

and check out renderings by:
Erka
Thomas Krahn
pmermino
kenwas

Some of these artists (and others) have tutorials on their websites. I've only chosen a few, but there are many more Vue artists who have mastered photorealism with Vue (Robert Czarny, GaryAndCatherine, sacada, etc..)

best, Chipp

I use vue as a counter part to my photography. sometimes i like to go out and take pictures, and sometimes i like to stay on my computer and make them. either way it is very important that I portray the beauty of the scene Im working on.  it is just as important to do that with vue as it is with a camera, and sometimes photorealism helps portray that in an image.

Hm, they have some jaw-dropping images there; hopefully TG will have a user friendly interface. Amazing renders on snow, planet, water and the skies rock; how could these guys create such a powerful graphic/render engine?

I think JohnnyRoy made a really good point about 3D Realism-  a REALLY CONVINCING 3D scene is a movie or TV scene (or still image) goes a long way in gettings viewers "into" the concept that's being presented... (not just a "MAT" shot)

Take any one of those extremely realistic looking T2 scenes of clouds- and have your choice of vehicle- spaceship, airplane, automobile- in there rendered CONVINCINGLY- not just "looks like 3D"- but PHOTOREAL CONVINCINGLY - then you have really GRABBED your audience!

The movie, TV show and commercial makers would-, will-, and ARE on this! This saves TONS of production $$$-- E-on says ILM is using Vue now for background mats- but background mats are a real step BELOW using 3D software for entire "establishing scenes"- like the last series of StarWars movies- done on expensive 3D machines. Just IMAGINE having this kind of power on a SINGLE Athlon 64 running 64 bit Windows... You basically have the 3D scene realism POWER that ILM had just 4-5 years ago...

Planetside has been visiting the major production houses in California, UK, etc in the past year and I would really suspect that they (the production houses) are already using T2 "Alpha" versions in scene tests- perhaps even upcoming productions -if Planetside has the animation quality of these scenes up to a very usable level (and they probably do).

Bottomline is that T2 sets a standard in 3D realism that forces E-on to try an match- since E-on is after the same movie, TV and commercial production houses... and ultimately this power trickles down to affordable 3D packages for consumers. However- I think most people who are serious about using this kind of 3D realism will need BEEFY machines running 64 bit OS's... and that is why Planetside and E-on are most likely TIMING their next major releases for early next year some time...

Veritas,

First of all, I have to admit, those Terragen2 renders are mouth-watering, indeed! Wow.

There are a few other issues to be concerned about.

1. The interface? As far as I can tell, Tbeta (1 is not yet released) is pretty hard to use.
2. The render times (OMG!) seem very long. I checked out 1 thread where a user was complaining about a rendering taking 25 hours and still only half way through.
3. The product shipping date for T2 is still unannounced and has been that way for many years. In fact some folks in the Terragen forum are starting to get a bit perturbed by it all.

Perhaps once a real shipping product is available,  it will be interesting to compare.

-Chipp

WOW Chipp. Those are some impressive renders from Vue users. I have a LOT of studying to do. ;-)

~jr

I have always constructed my images as well as my content products using more than one tool and many more times than not, Terragen figures prominently in my Vue work.  Nothing will change for me with T2 and Vue 6...... in fact, I'm quite anxious to grab both!!

I scarcely ever make a Terragen picture though (beautiful but barren), and I so prefer the staging environment of Vue. I bought Carrara 5 when the first Vue/C5 comparisons and debates came about and it's done nothing but sit out in the cyber rain and get rusty. I just felt so crowded and cramped in that scene builder compared to Vue's wide open spaces. I am sure that T2 will certainly address Terragen's vast emptiness but  I am looking forward to it's remarkable texture making capabilities. Terragen is my Vue texture generator.

Nothing beats that fractal distribution of color in Terragen's surface editor for realism.  Just a 3 or 4 level variation of grays in Terragen makes a most convincing rock material in Vue.  And it's so easy.  I use it to harvest the base textures of all my Vue mats. It's also a great source for distribution maps and alphas. I couldn't be without it and T2 is going to be a mat maker's dream.

I've been knocked out of commission by summer's real life so it's great to get excited by our craft again if even for a short break.....

HOW TO HARVEST TEXTURES IN TERRAGEN    Try it..you'll like it!

.open up Terragen and don't make a terrain. Leave it black.

.move the altitude of the camera up to 100m or beyond to your pleasure

. make the pitch angle minus -90 degrees

.eliminate fog, atmospheric haze and blue

.raise the sun's pitch to almost perpendicular or to taste

. make or load your surface file and take a nice render and save. Move the camera about and go texture shopping lol!

DISTRIBUTION MAPS

You can even take that same Terragen render and make natural looking distribution maps from it.

Take the render into PSP or Photoshop or other paint tool of choice and...

.make black and white by adjusting the threshold

.blur with a gaussian blur

OR...

.gaussian blur first to a degree of 3 or so and then adjust threshold. Makes for bigger more generalized distributions...

M

And check this out... http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2655870

Great info, Monsoon! I'm with you on this- Terragen and Vue have actually been very compatible with each other- it's not VUE ---OR---TERRAGEN!  Some people seem to be really closed minded about this... They don't know the history of these two like-minded little software groups- one in the UK and one in a little office in Paris...

Check out E-on's own website- TERRAGEN is listed as a "resource" ! Heh!--- And if people knew the real background going back over the years- you will find that Planetside's Matt Fairclough and E-on's Nicholas Phelps are old aquaintances- back when Vue 1 was basically just a very simple plant making landscape program- and MANY Terragen terrains were a primary source for Vue scenes...

Also- NOTE how many of Terragen's Alpha-Testers are FRENCH! Many of these folks go back to the very earliest days of Vue and Terragen- these are people who really love and KNOW these programs better than most people here! You can bet that a LOT of discussion about the pros and cons of different rendering techniques gets discussed privately among these hard-core landscape rendering fanatics...(who also use MojoWorld, World Machine, and even Carrara and Bryce!)

Of course- there are NDA's (Non-Disclosure Agreements) that keep anything being directly shared- like particular ways of writing or optimizing specific code- but both Planetside and E-on need these hard-core experts to really let them know what seems to work- and what doesn't... (Even IF they share a lot of these ideas with each other...)

I think that E-on would NOT be so driven to re-write and greatly improve Vue 6- if it were not for Terragen's own amazing envelope-pushing innovations. Vue users should actually THANK the hard-core Terragen user-base for making E-on continue to push their development envelope...

BTW- ever notice how many people working at these companies- like E-on and Eovia- have the first name- PASCAL? Heh! ... maybe they have bumper stickers on their cars saying "BORN TO CODE!"

"I think that E-on would NOT be so driven to re-write and greatly improve Vue 6- if it were not for Terragen's own amazing envelope-pushing innovations. Vue users should actually THANK the hard-core Terragen user-base for making E-on continue to push their development envelope..." Actually, I'm more inclined to believe that ILM and Imageworks has more to do with the redesigned internal architecture than TG2's status as the only other program approaching Duke Nukem Forever in development time. Both production houses need certain things to make the tool more agreeable, and have the technical expertise to provide assistance to make it happen.

Quote - BTW- ever notice how many people working at these companies- like E-on and Eovia- have the first name- PASCAL? Heh! ... maybe they have bumper stickers on their cars saying "BORN TO CODE!"

LOL, I’m not sure how many others caught the fact that Pascal is a programming language but being a former "quiche eater" myself, I got a chuckle out of it.

Quote - ... TG2's status as the only other program approaching Duke Nukem Forever in development time.

Did 3D Realms announce a new date for Duke and I missed it? ;-) Duke Nukem was the funniest most entertaining FPS I have ever played. It is a classic!

Actually, using Terragen was one of the reasons I decided to buy Vue. Terragen got me hooked but I wanted to add objects to my landscapes and Vue was the next logical step for me.

~jr

Yep! When its done. I think they got distracted (again) with Prey. Supposedly all the pieces are there, but..... I really wish they would turn Duke loose; that was the most politically incorrect fun I'd had in a long time.

http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Mathematicians/Pascal.html

"Blaise Pascal was a very influencial French mathematician and philosopher who contributed to many areas of mathematics. "

...probably why so many French mothers named their kids Pascal- so that they would grow up to be successful software programmers   :)

PASCAL was also the very first (and only) programming language I was directly exposed to- back when people still used Punch Cards and Paper Tape. It convinced me that I was not cut out to be a software programmer!

Terragen 2 - while taking FOREVER (probably the longest ALPHA Test phase of any significant 3D rendering program)- remains a very influential piece of software, none the less...

Digital Domain hired one of the 2 guys (name of which one anyone - can't remember?) who created TG to help create the engine they used for the FX work they did on the movie "Stealth". Yes, all those landscapes they flew over at lightning speed were constructed with TG as well as plantlife added in other 3D apps and compositing. The guy has gone back to Planetside (obviously) but DD now uses this version of TG (that they further changed to add objects) as their terrain creation app.

DaleB - I think you're absolutely right when you say that it is most likely ILM and Sony Imageworks as the driving force behind the new architecture. And they might have had a hand in the XStream plug-ins if you think about it. What better way in a 3D matte (or environment for that matter) than to be able to create the terrain and ecosystem, then export it (while still being able to edit) into Maya or Max or LW or C4D? Ecosystems, rendered in the higher end finishing packages where the rest of their elements (and better more customizeable animation tools) can be added and tweaked in their normal production pipelines. If that's the clientelle you want to court, those are the people to listen to for feedback and suggestions!

TG is fun to use, but like Monsoon, I only use it for far away landscapes as they're all barren. When (IF!) they ever come out with v2 (which is funny to me, as they never had a v1 for actual sale other than the $99 registration) I'll definitely play with it, but I still don't think it'll tear me away from Vue.
-Lew ;-)

That "other guy" was Planetside's Matt Fairclough, who actually is the guy behind Terragen code. I really think that it was his going off to work for Digital Domain- and then coming back to write the very impressive Terragen 2 (alpha) that got E-on somewhat --"Scared?, Interested?"-- in making their own high-end production house connections- like ILM.

We don't (and may never know) the full story- but I suspect that some of E-on's staff did their own trips to California 3D production houses to both earn some $$$ and also more importantly- really get their FEET WET in the BIG TIME world of 3D movie/game production... and by doing so- realized that- Vue was WAY BEHIND in meeting the needs of the PROS- and needed to GET INTO the professional 3D work-full system. This led to X-Stream products- which in turn- again made E-on realize how really CLUNKY their software code was by BIG TIME standards- forcing another big Re-Write of Vue...

The Good News/Bad News is (I think) - that E-on has been forced to make Vue 6 fully 64 bit code that works effectively with PRO 3D software (the Good News)- but that Vue 6's new code format will also be a SUB-SET of what the PRO'S use. This means that Vue 6- the "Infinite" consumer version will be somewhat "dumbed down"- or to put it another way- you will need MAX, LW, C4D, Maya, etc to really get the power and full features you really want- or need. Or as I've said in a thread months back- VUE is really becoming a PLUG-IN achitecture software- and that's where most of the E-on time and software development is/will be spent in the future...

...and since E-on is now so INTO the Plug-In phase of their business plan- I wish they would also realize that PLUG-INS for Vue ITSELF would be extremely popular- like what Carrara has-

TOON EFX

VECTOR EFX

PIRANESI File Export

CAD Modeling Add-On's

...and many other Plug-In's written by Third-Parties that would greatly enhance Vue's usefulness...

**Veritas777 & Monsoon.

You guys rock.

Your posts are always informative & well written...great stuff indeed.

Thank you guys.
**

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