Awhile back there was an issue with a particular terragen render where a person used a world file n terrain from someone else, he changed the camera's position n rendered it.  He ended up with the most views or the most comments for this render along with the top20.  Ppl praised him on the lighting (when he didn't do the lighting), surfaces (same thing), terrain (even tho he didn't make it).. and praised him for his "masterpiece".  It ticked some of us off.
He had credited the person who created the world file n terrain, I guess a lot of ppl don't read that stuff.  I couldn't do that because it would feel like it was a rip off.    When it comes to Poser, I'm with Dann in that it wouldn't feel like it's my art.  I never quite understood a lot of poser users, what do they think when they look at their finished render? .. "I did a great job putting this together"... when they upload their renders to renderosity they credit.. pose came from this person, character came from that person, textures, jewelry, clothing n props n lighting came from this n that person, hair came from this person.  And I dunno what to comment on... nice job with the pov and hitting the render button?

Why should we put up with the Poser community?

Why Should we accept them as artists?

..... because I am a modeler and they are my customers.   I like them.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1287768

You need a head. I have a tutorial on getting started on a human head written for wings. I am by no means an expert. Heads are fun but a big task. Take a look over at subdivisionmodeling.com they have a lot of excellent modelers there that can help.

Just to show that I am nto just blowiing smoke I am enclosing a link with a pic of two of my human models and one of my sort of critter models. All modeling mapping texturing and rendering by Dann-O

i like the body darkskies

the torso and arms work for me. would like to see similar definitition on the lags and fingers.

give him some blocky kneecaps as well looks like it could be a good character.

a good six pack wouldn't go amiss either lol

and we don't need to be able to do something to have an opinion about it. cos it's a styalized figure mistakes are in the eye of the beholder. as i say looking good.  i've only been doing the modeling thing about 6 months so take what i say with a grain of salt or two

billy

ps..light it up a bit so we can see it clearer for the next image you show

looking good. wierd but that would also make a good aliens face, the nipplesw could be it's eyes....the arms its ears...anyway....i like it a lot...keep us updated....i think the stomach muscle structure has the long muscle going into the ribcage thouh i could and probably am wrong lol

billy

Quote - Every one tries to tie this arguement into the filming industry, okay next time you see a CG Movie and those credits go screaming by, try to name 3 modelers 10 minutes later... it wont happen, however try to remember the name of the production agency or the director or producer.  Chances are you will.  They are the one that make it all happen.  Sure they use a library of assets but those assests were created from scratch.  These are guys that work in teams for those agencies, thats different, that agencies name becomes your own.  One of the largest reasons for this thread was to help some of these artists, and if those targeted read this they will understand.  They will get it.  They are the one who will have that feeling, that "I wish I could do more", they are the one that when they show a Peice to their work to friends or family they hate the fact that they have to say...  "I did it in poser".  They want to make their own characters.  Make your own characters, build your own library.  Earn that sense of accomplishment.  Dont piggy back off of someone else. 

Quote -

Guess what... Not everyone has the same goals and aspirations as you. That doesn't mean that the're not worthy, and certainly shouldn't be minimized and depreciated the way you do. I mean, with what I do, I could easily find an angle to knock what you do...  It would just make me look like I have a chip on my shoulder, like your knocking down of other people is making you look.

You know, I just posted in 'jobs' forum that I'm looking for someone with certain modelling skill, to hire them for a full time position, which is the whole reason I'm taling a look in the modelling forum. Looking at your attitude about other people's efforts and lack of the ability to see value in more then one point of view, I probably wouldn't get to a point of reviewing your qualifications. I would me thnking, oh my, even a toned down version of that kind of an attitude would be a pain to work with.
Oh, and we pay a lot better then the filming industry sweatshops where youngster modellers whom want an 'in' are getting to be a dime a dozen.

Quote - bonestructure, Model your own, if you took all that time to model your pictures to look as good as they do, don't ruin it by useing poser.  Remember this; once you model your own character it is your to use when ever and how ever you want.

Why don't yopu do your own mathematical modelling long hand, instead of using Maya and 3D studio to help you??? Can you explain the math and the topology that goes behind the nurbs and other surfaces you are making in the modelling programs?  Lets start with the basics... Can you take an implicit linear equation and tell me the slope of the line you're modelling? Can you explain the differences between different types of nurbs? Do you know what a clothoid is? Do you know how to apply a catenary sag to a rope so if you need to use it in a model it looks very realistic? Can you model anything besides freeform characters? If you needed to build an organic model to exact specifications to be used in real life applications, could you? How ae your rapid modelling skills? Are you getting anywhere near to par of being able to make the time and the budget allocated for something? Can you handle different levels of detail and know when to apply them? .... I'm sure there are plenty of things that someone else knows, that you don't...

You're complaining about people using assistance to model characters, and you too are heavily relaying on assistance, just of a little different type.  Learn to draw freehand and make claymation characters and varuious other types of sculpture, and do your own math...  Oh, and build your own computer too... See the slippery slope you're on?

To take your line of thinking little farther to make the error in your thinking little more obvious here's another analogy, perhaps people whom can't build a car shouldn't be driving one. I can build a house, and you can't, so perhaps you shouldn't have the privilege of living in a house... .....eh.... :m_thumbd:  quit yer whining.  Here's an idea, take some time away from modelling characters, and use it to improve your own character.
[Kitty: retracting claws]

i can't do any of that shit lol..i can't even rig the model i made and i'm getting rather pissed to say the least...and by my own violition i'm no artist. ..i acnt render worth a toss either so i don't do any...i would love to get thiss sucker i'm working on riogged in poser though

i guess life just ain't fair hehe

billy

None of that makes you 'unworthy'  and whatever ese the original poster complained about, at least not in my book.

LOL, knocking other people's work down because 'someone' didn't get noticed is just not cool, and a BIG pet peeve of mine.  LOL, could you tell? ;)
So... guys whom tinkerr with computers an renderings like picture of scantly clad an nekkid wimminz... well, um, welcome to life 101. Men think about sex A LOT, so sexy poser pics will get a lot of views and comments. It's, um, NORMAL.  LOL    The second most viewed images will be sexy wimminz in spaceships.... Such is life.

If the OP is so good at character development, he could model an all new bimbette in maya, and one-up the poser models. Like, one that has more natural looking shoulders then V3 and with an expressive face. Maybe a rigged model for 3Dmax...

Even most of the poser renderings, even though there is a lot of very fine and time consuming brushwork, if more people actually took the time to learn more about facial expressions and anatomydeliberately created an emotive face, their work just might stick out even among a myriad of finely crafted poser renders.  One little example that I notice all the time is that a looot of people don't seem to realize or know (or whatever the case may be) that to make a smile look more genuine and less 'robotic' one must pose the eyes..., not just the mouth.

Also, what cracks me up is the hyper detailed faces, and hands and feet looking like a half melted wax figure...   soooo, what I'm getting at, even with all the percieved 'help' poser may offer, it still takes a lot of work to come up with an outstanding image. sure, it's no 3D studio or Maya, but Poser isn't necesarily super easy to use, if you want something aside from a humanoid standing like a candlestick with arms spread eagle.

I should apologize for the outburst(s).... Too many 60+ hour work weeks in a row. I'm getting too old for this, ....need to find a younger body to put to work.

Quote -   Show me something that at least took 3 months to create, not a couple of hours here and there for three months, but 12 - 22 hour days.  All of that for one piece, not all of that for 30 works.  Where are you and lets see it?

Well, I got a pice that took just over 200 hours to create, and I got paid $27,000 dollars to produce.  However, I consider it an illustration.
On average, I get paid to 10K-12K per model and ilustration.  Some people call them art... Whatever makes them happy. I just like making them.
Oh, and that's without spending 10 years in an art school. People just started noticing my junk and paying for it. shrug

Now show me yours... bleh, bedtime....

      I was a bit more in agreement before. I now tend to hang out at other sites and I am better now. One of the things about going to a more pro site is that you have to be ready to take some serous criticism beforeI was not ready for that,now I can so it is fine by me.

    One of my beefs with the overall poser community is that if you did make a perfect pic if it ws not made in poser nobody would look here. Over the years most of the top talent slowly stopped posting here. Because most people will not look in other galleries. Poser is a useful program that can be very helpful. I think it is abused for the most part but I find it can be a useful tool.

   I think a lot of the community of poser users are cheating themselves out of real creativity. The fun of breathing life into your own creation. From the first rough sketches to the refining of textures. For me it brings me a lot of joy. When I just used poser I did not feel that.

To me it all really depends on what the goal of the creator was, and what gives 'them' sense of accomplishment.
Looking at one image, 5 diferent people may see 5 different things and appreciate different aspects of it.
What I think the original poster has trouble with is that he is mixing the general value of something with his personal values, preferences and interests.
Just because something doesn't turn "me" on, doesn't mean that it is of no value at all, or that it's not of value to someone else, or that it's appropriate or even fair for me to knock it down.

Heres' one ingerent problem with an extraordinary talent and original creations (I don't know that problem is the right word, but I can't think of better at the moment).  Most of your average people probably don't have the knowledge and abiolity to appreciate it. Especially if it's not associated with something that's popular and mainstream at the time.

Look at the TV media... if you want exposure to the masses, you have to cater to the 'average'.

Cheating themselves out of creativity... for you that may be the case, and for me that would be the case. For someone else, whom may have different abilities and aptitude and priorities, it may be the pinnacle of "their" creativity. And they get as much sense of accomplishment for pushing themselves, as you may get out of pushing yourself.  Even if on the grand scheme of things you may have greater abilities in some aspect of your life.

I wouldn't say that the top talent left because people wouldn't look... They probably did what top talent often does, moves on to new or different challenges. Most people recognize that they don't have the power of taking a community of couple of thousand people or so and make them conform to cater to their talents. They tend to seek communities which offer them an opportunity for a challenge. If your talents are a lot greater then what the community has to offer, then one eventually outgrows it.  It's not anyone's 'fault', it's the nature of things and relationships between people.

Also, who's to say that character development ability is indicator of 'real creativity? There are a lot of aspects to creativity.

I'm looking at your statement:  "One of my beefs with the overall poser community is that if you did make a perfect pic if it ws not made in poser nobody would look here." ... well, you;re asking for the impossible here, you want people whom arte congregating because they have a lot of interest in Poser to switcs their interest and notice YOU, working in a medium they're not as interested in. Well, that's not going to happen. You're barking up the wrong tree for that.
It's like getting mad at the wine tasters club for not taking notice of coffee, because coffee too is a liquid... Well, it's the wine tasters club, coffee is not their thing.
Just because someone has interested in poser, it doesn't mean that they're into or able to appreciate character development.

You know, to put it very bluntly, it appears to me that some people use poser characters as a new for of 'inflatable girlfriend'. A guy like that is NOT going to take notice of your Napoleon character. Definately not in a way that will do justice to the time and effort you put into it.
Now, if you made a model which one-ups "the girl next door", and you make it from scratch etc... you're more likely to get noticed.

Your beef seems to stem from a frustration of trying to change things you have no power over changing. Recognize that and move on to the parts that suit you and your interests more.
Sure, you can continue to battle to, and eventually you may even have some impact on the currents within rendo. It's up to you where you want to spend your energy.
One thing you do need to know if you want to spend your time and energy changing the community, beefing and griping and knocking down others will NOT accomplish that. It will only get a lot of people ticked off. It's a matter of psychological games and marketing and group dynamics and group politics, not necessarily the mater of having a product that's 'better' in some way.

Sure, you put a lot of time and effort into creating something, and "they" don't care and don't appreciate it much. It's not fair on some universal balance scheme of things.  Well, guess what... "Welcome to life"

Pros post here now and then, not as often as they used too but not for the reason you think. They left the gallery area mostly because it was becoming the let's pat each other on the back even if it's total trash gallery. Honest and thoughtfull critique is what a Pro wants, they don't need to be told they're the greatest thing since sliced bread because they know this already (doesn't hurt to say it but don't let it be all you have to say).  Another reason is that the gallery has been, is and will probably be flooded with images of Poser women with absurdly enlarged breasts and nothing else in the pic to look at. As most of us in this thread will  say, that's not the cream of the Poser crop and in many ways it devalues both the tool, the gallery and women. A woman can be a beautiful thing to be hold in the nude or fully clothed but there's been a huge movement to posting T&A in the gallery, often with nothing more than the base nude figures in a scene and each image getting dozens of applause for how brilliant the work is.  It's that sort of thing that keeps Pros from posting often here.

We (mods) know this and like Connie has said, it's a larger issue then we can tackle without upseting the community and coming off as some snooty gestapo. Afterall, this is all supposed to be fun. As it is, we get insulted, harassed and spoken badly of for any attempt we make to change the community, could you imagine what would happen if we just stated no nudes. I mean that's what it would take to get thos folks who don't want to put more effort into their images to actually either stop posting or start thinking about what it is they want their art to express beyond puberty laden carnal desire. It's also something we'd never do because we don't have the right to tell you what is art and what isn't. We can say, okay, that's too racy for our site but we'd have to do it across the board, not just for Poser. Photographers would rain hell upon us faster than you could blink.

So what's an artist, who actually cares about art and expression, to do? Simple. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep posting your work and the folks who put value in it will come to you if your work is of merit. If it's not, then  you'll get less replies or less views and you'll have to practice some more. No more no less. All of this has little to do with Poser and more to do wtih the mentality and passion for art of those who visit here (or the lack of passion in some cases).

Poser isn't responsible for these kind of images. Poser just makes them easier to make. I've seen the same kind of images come out of Max. Yes, the person should be commended for attempting a human, they're tough, but they should also be willing to hear that they need to improve.  That's why we post our work in the first place afterall. We're not here just to hear how swell we are, we're here to share our ideas and improve upon them. Poser is great for helping you express these ideas but if an image or an artist falls short of your expectations, your argument should not be with their tools but with the ideas the artist was attempting to express in the first place, if any.  So the best way to combat the images you think are degrading the value of the gallery and driving people away is to give the posters honest critique and ways to improve their image without resorting to hateful or nasty comments.

...somewhere in all this I lost sight of where I was going. Ah well, I have your ear so....

Another thing to consider is that Poser opens doors to modelers who may not be able to break into the CG business. Through Poser you can make money doing what you love, creating models and then selling them. The Poser community is literaly starving for new content in the form of new humans and better rigged models too.  Poser's setup Room doesn't provide alot of the more fancy tools you'd find in XSI or Maya for rig work but you can still setup a character in about a day after it's been made. Then you just need to test it, texture it and send it on its way.

 Believe me when I say, it's the tool that keeps on giving. :)

Also, and I'm under NDA with the company so don't ask, some film studios have recently requested info on Poser for use in production. Schools request Poser as an introduction to 3D for students who would otherwise not have access to it. No, it's not the program, it's the way our community uses the program that needs to change but it's also something that's not going to happen overnight. Nor is that something we can expect one person to be able to change for the masses, it will take a community decision to start working towards a better use of the app across the board. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best way to make a change is to start it yourself. Visit the images you hate, comment on what the artist could improve and what they did right. Help them help themselves. You may run across a few who don't care but you'll also run across a few who will truly benefit from your words.

Ignore the tool. Help the community.

wow.. I wrote all that. geesh. even I wouldn't read it. lol. That's sooooooo looooooong.

Ah, don't worry about the length... whomever has interest will have to bite the bullet and get through it. It's a complex issue, an quickies may not do it justice.

About pats on the back.....

Yeah, I noticed that. I also tried out the art theory and critique forum...  well, people tried in thee, but frankly I quickly realized that even with my very sporadic art training (mostly self taught and little tutelage from some old time pros in traditional media) and what I think f as limited knowledge about color theory, composition etc I knew more then those offeing critique.

On the other hand, pat on the back can be useful too, aside from just feeling good, it does give you feedback from certain audience segment.  if we are to try and make a living from our creations, we maximize our earning potential by trying to learn how to be attuned to the audience. A really skilled and talented and creative artist may be able to combine the two, creativity and catering to a particular audience. If one looks in the right place, things can be lerned from pats on the back too.

here's an idea... Whay don't some of the people whom know little more (dare I say 'us'... as I'm not sure I fit in the category of those whom actually know something) offer threads with more critique.
Not necessarily critiquing other people's work, but more as a cross between a show and tell and a tutorial.  decribe he thinking process that went into a piece, describe what you think went well and us the way you wanted it, and what you wish was bette, but you had skill or time or some other liitation. When we critique our own work, the risk of alienating the friendship of the recipient of that critique is MUCH less.  When people enjoy th ense of community, the risk of losing that to an ill recieved or ill offered critique becomes too high.

Critiquing someone else's work in a constructive manner takes time, energy and skill too. And it takes an individual whom won't get upset for being jumped on for critiquing.  So, it's a tricky teritory.

As or poser, I used it for 'real paying work' more often then for fun. Right now I'm trying to produce a series of short instructional videos on a sport tchnique. I have a limited time and budget. Given enough time and effort, I could develop a new character... Guess what, my client doesn't want to pay for more time then it takes to grab a poser figure and animate a body motion sequence.

Caring about 'ART'... beware of self-proclaimed artists, especially those whm show lack of appreciation for other people's efforts...  judging yourself is MUCH harder then judging others. If a person can't judge otr things well and objectively, it alway makes me wonder about their ability to judge themselves objectively.
I'm always very concerned about doing the best I can given the real life constraints. If some people think of itt s art, great, if they don't, great. Most of great art didn't necessarily start with 'creating great art' in mind. The art part happens due to other people's psychological reaction to what you made.  Most people whom focus on technique, with reating great art in mind, end up becoming very skilled craftsmen. Not necesarily artists.

Dann-o... I was looking at your gallery, you do wonderful work. There are also a few things that I thought of as observations and food for thought, but I'm not sure if you're interested in hearing it...

Well, so much for my rambling. I was going to call it my 2c, but I think I dropped a few dollars worth of words - if you go by the word count ;)    And sorry about all the typo's I get too ADD-like to look back and proofread.

you either look in the galleries or you don't you look for art or you look for tits. you masterbate over what you see or you think ...now thats good. who gives a shit. if people want to post there art or their pics there, fair play to them. we all have the capacity to like or dislike something...it should be left at that. if we want to leave a comment fine and well. if we want our ego's stroked, again fine and well...personally i hate the pat on the back syndrome but to eacj his own  same with apps.

i've spent three months creating a model i'm pleased with it...it's certainly not a great model lol. but i'm pleased with it.....it's certainly not art but i'm pleased with it. i won't have a wank over it but i'm plesed with it lol. now and again i trawl the galleries and i'm licky if i se one in 30 images that i think are good or better than not good. so what it doesn't cost me anything. the poeple posting their images seem to enjoy it. why spoil their fun.

i want to be agood modeller. i doubt i will be but i'd like to try to the best of my ability to be so. i could post my model at cg but i don't think it good enough as of yet. i tend to think that many of the modelers here netter than i at the game and so i threw it in the developers thread. i think i got one respons...sorry maybe two...for which i'm grateful. it would be nice if those that do and can model could give some kind of feedback...not the ego stroking unless it;'s genuine which i think in this particular case it was genuine. but good honest feedback that can help a newb grow.

i don't even know what i'm talking about...i just wrote this so i could ask conniekat8 if she'd pose in the nude for me while i tried to make a model of her lol

billy

Conniecat do tell me yotu observations. I am not afraid of criticism. As much as a ego stroke is good it often does not help in your ability to improve. I try the praise sandwhich idea. Tell what you do like and then the things you think can be improved. Often there are style differences and well a mature artist can recognise that too. I am not after flawless realism my inspriation is from traditional media so I tend to back off the realism a bit.

   I am of a similar mind as Teyon Poser is a useful tool that is abused in many hands. My only real complaint is that most poser users do not bother to look beyond the poser galleries. Try looking at the Maya or other pro app galleries you will see some great stuff with very few views. It is a culture problem here. My cure is to also post elsewhere where it will be appreciated although it will be critiqued too. You need to be able to handle that in order to grow as an artist and also to be able to sort out stylistic differences from things that really need improving. You need to be able to see your inner vision.

I have used poser before so I know the amount of work that goes into a pic I also make my own and I know the difference. I also know where I am weaker and what I can improve for the most part. I can't do everything and those people who are really good I certainly appreciate and I tell them so. I don't like to praise mediocrity. I know the culture here is different in that real criticism is looked down on and if you offer advice to some it is seen as an attack.

Have fun enjoy what you do and don't cheat yrouself out of the real fun. Often I hear it again and again I can't model. Then you need to try. The programs are too expensive. I use wings which is free. You need to go to Gnomon or anothe rexpensive school. No there are pleanty of resources on the net to teach yourself ask questions get some advice. I'm self taught.

Start small and then go large. Measure your progress against where you were before then measure it against the community. Make friends find a mentor and later when you have some experience mentor someone else.
     

Quote - i don't even know what i'm talking about...i just wrote this so i could ask conniekat8 if she'd pose in the nude for me while i tried to make a model of her lol

giggle
if I  was more of a poser model material, I probably would.
but, I can save you ome time, if you just model a snowman and put lipstick on it, you'd have my basic current body shape down. :P
note to self: work less, work out more! LOL

Hi dann-o  great post.

About the chractrs, looks like you have modelling of the details down pat.
What I was noticing i that the fces of your characters seem to come from the same basic head shape.  Especially when it comes tothe brow and the nose bridg area.
I think you could bring out a lot oe out of your characters if you experimented with a diferent approach, avery different head/face shape.
I'm not sure if the 'look' is the result of your modelling technique and habit, or if it was more deliberate.
there are coupl books I really like, and use a lot when I handle characters (which I've only one in hand drawing so far) are dynmic anatomy by Burne Hogarth
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/102-1874095-4730525?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=dynamic+anatomy&Go.x=12&Go.y=11
Actually I have the first 5 books on that list...
The other one is: Artists guide to facial expression, by: Gary Faigin
http://www.amazon.com/Artists-Complete-Guide-Facial-Expression/dp/0823016285/sr=8-1/qid=1159593119/ref=sr_1_1/102-1874095-4730525?ie=UTF8&s=books

they all go over the head shapes and bone structures, and the likely viewer emotional response to what they see. Us humans tnt to be wied somewhat alike in how we interpret faces. We learn it as babies. Good charactern artists are aware of it and use it to their advantage. Subtly guide us to loving or hating a character.

After getting a handle of what makes a normal face expressive, to make characters, I went and dug into a few guide books on caricatures.

I did some caricarure sculpting in polymer clays, and at first even though I would hit on some of the likeness characteristics, for a while I had mostof my characters have the same or similr 'toy story-ish' face shape.  it took someeading experimenting and rustration to get past the facial mold I was getting by sticking to a technique I as familiar with.  i have a long way to go still, but beore I was aware of it, I had no chnce of expanding the abilities.

Anyway, that's one thing that stuck out at me, and something I thought I could relate to.

Let me guess, by yourtechnique I'd say you had some great modelling advice and mentoring by Don Tatro? Great and very talented guy, huh?

i wish i had a menthol..er ...i mean mentor even a snow lady shaped one.  glad i gave ya a giggle lol.

personally i wanna create the human race...apparently one man is capable of such a feat but he needs 4.36 billion women and a truck load of gatorade to achive it.....na i just want to create something thats a bit more realistic than some of the poser figures out there. i'm too old to take it up as a living but i think i'd have given a few a good run for their money had i started doing it 10 or 15 yrs ago lmao.  for me very little of what i se is art...for it to be my kind of art it has has to make me think or go mmmmmmmmm wow...or wtf......i can see what you say about perusing other galleries danno bit many aren't into that sort of thing and from my poetry writing days many couldn't give a toss as to if they improve or not. they're basically passing time doing something they enjoy.  the learning to be better part of it doesn't even cross their mind...of course some think they're the bee's knees lol but don't we all have dreams of grandur.

i guess i would have liked a few more comments and some feedback with what i i did but it's not something i'll lose sleep over.  maybe when i can do a really good model i'll throw it in cg and see what they think and hope for some constructive crit. till then i'll just try and improve on what i'm doing......whilst good crit always helps i find that i can be my own worst crit. i have a habit of tearing down what i do and giving things major edits. i think the model i finally became fairly happy with was my 4th or 5th remake......i know what faults she has but may have a missed a few...she has the ugliest feet you've ever seen lmao....and for me one of the sweetest faces.  not saying the mesh is the best though..i look at some of the stuff in cg and know what quality is when i do. i'm not there yet but i will be...i have every confidence in myself  i'm also delusional but thats anothe story.....

in truth all i've learned which is very little has been from tuts. i read em, i do em and i throw em away. i then try it on my own. i was so suprised at the standard i got in such a short time ...i'm not saying it's a good standard you hear but it's far better than i expected. i look at it and my ego strokes itself lmao....then i see the flaws...ego shrinks back .....then i think...you did okay ..and ego grows again all puffed up and pridefull...who gives a shit....i'm have ing fun ...as someone told me i must have...good advice i think...have fun, enjoy what you're doing, whether it's posing someything that looks like an outcast from folly bergere or whatever the second name is or a standalone work of art that inspires men to die...enjoying it or what you do is the one thing that will and does for me make it all worth while

and connie...don't try and fob me off with the snow woman rebuttle..i've made a few of those melt in my time lmao.

some nice postings folks.

billy

ps..how come danno get a mentor and idon't even get me a snowperson

the thing wit me dann o

is i fimd it hard to be a mentor about anything...i help where i can but most people know more than me when it comes to 3d. the only thing i'm fairly good at is know what i like and so thats how i give feedback...this looks right that doesn.t etc. thr trouble comes when people take whats said personally. they think they are being critted and not the object or image. i think people who really want feedback the one thing they should have is thick skin and a sense standing back from the crit and looking at what was said...i know that's two things .......so...who wants to be my mentor lol

if you teach me about three d modelling i can teach you about making a perfect white sauce.....bechemal with flour and cheese before the inuendoes run riot.

billy

Oh, and I forgot to mention yesterday, and I think it's very important to highlight... Especially after the, um, advice I offered to dann-o

Being the bookworm that I tend to be, I know a lot more theory then I'm able to put into pratice. I think that may be true for a lot of people...

Just in case someone thought or if I came across as if I really know what I'm talking about. keep in mind that I'm just another wannabe, and take what I say with a grain of salt... A BIG ONE!   :)

And I hope I didn't make you feel bad... I didn't mean to, but especially with critique, I'm not sure how it comes across....  I really don't like to call it critique, it's more like, hey, looking at your images, this is what came to my mind... use it as food for thought, as you see fit.

With me when I offer critique, it's usually imeddiatly followed by a guilt trip, and wondering, doI really have aclue what it is I'm talking about, and, I hope I wasn't too harsh.  It's a tricky territory.

Maybe there should be a specific critique/advice wanted gallery???

Billy, You don't have anything in your gallery????   Show me your stuff!!!

As for mentor... HA, I've been looking for someone to adopt me most of my life. I want to be someone's spoiled lap cat.    LOL

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2664672

the wires are in this thread cos i was told i shouldn't comment if i don't have a gallery or any of my own stuff on display. the main images are in the developers thread. you didn't make make me feel bad..critique, comment, feedback or advice it all boils down to the same thing...one persons opion of another persons output. as long as we don't crit beyond our knowledge then we'll usually be on safe ground lmao........i'll sort out the adoption papers lol....i have a thick skin btw so no need to worry about my emotional stability hehe

billy

Hi ther esorry I am really busy now. I will just point out one thing. I live in China allthough I am nto chinese so most of my freinds are chinese etc. Take a close look and you will find that there is a definate difference in the construction of the head particularly in those areas. It is what I am used to. I do do some different stuff from time to time too. Some of my problems with head shape are artifacts left over from my box modeling approach some are well I still have room to grow.

For learnign to make heads and stuff artists I like are ones like Tony DiTerlizzi  Wilhelm Busch and Rodney Matthews to name a few nto the biggest most realistic artists. Jason Clarke helped me out a lot with my head modeling technique he is a mod over at Subdivisionmodeling.com.

Oh, no worries Dann-o :)
I'll have to check out the places and people you're talking about! Thanks for sharing that sounds interesting.
Now that you mention it... I do remember reading on your home page that you live in China. Heh, that didn't really sink in till now! Sorry!

Conniekat8

Thats my nature...  Harsh.  To you, throwing numbers out there is rude.  You have no idea what I am worth and you have no business knowing either.  You couldn't know much at all about the paintings I have hanging around the country.  How would you be able to tell that I have shown thousands of drawing at the Sundance.  Just like I dont care to hear your's.  You are coming off like you have been extremely sucsessfull.  I don't care, success has nothing to do with art.  I didn't see models in your gallery, all I saw was "Art".  You, model and get paid, thats really all that matters right?  I am an Artist and I too get paid.  I went to your gallery and a bit looks great. Call me hard but most looks like basic PSCS.  But to hear exactly what you're getting paid, that I couldn't help but think; damn, your buyers are getting ripped off.

good job.

apart from the photos i have to say, if most are  basic ps i want to know the basics. personally i'd hang any of them on my wall. i see plenty of good compositionand a lot of thought in them...i like the idea behind the rubiks cube. and cat a lina. i also love some of the abstract stuff. all in all i'd say they were excellent on the whole. from the comments recieved i'd say a few others agree.

i'm not an artist but yep,....... me too,.........i get paid............actually i don't but i used to lmao....though not for art.....as for being ripped. i think the guy who bought the van gogh for 12 mill only to find out there's another five of the same exact painting all attributed by various art dealers to be genuine....now i think he did get ripped lmao. and 27 thou isn't that large an amount..........i'm an ex antique dealer and at one fair i stood (newark) i took about 75K sterling which left me with about 30K profit.that was over a three day period........mmmmmmmm i suppose i am an artist after all hehe

billy

Quote -    "welcome to life 101. Men think about sex A LOT, so sexy poser pics will get a lot of views and comments. It's, um, NORMAL.  LOL    The second most viewed images will be sexy wimminz in spaceships.... Such is life."   

Life 101 for porn stars and those who cling to them, maybe.  My original statement was based off of Art 101.  However, you are right and maybe renderosity turned to a porn site for those who can only make love in cyberspace.  Thats cool, but thats why renderosity isn't the only gallery I show in.  When I started promoting renderosity it had a weath of modelers who researched vast amounts of 3D modeling programs.  Then these [edited epecially for you] F(*&!#@ posers came out and flooded it with s#!+.  It is money based greed that swamped the love and passion for the life of art on this site.  People thinking art and money at the same time travel farthest away from what art is.  Its great when it so happens to end up that way, but for porn...  shit, that money is too easy. 

here's an analogy that may of may not hold water........

a news agents (shop thats selles printed media for those outside the  uk) sells newspaper, periodicals, comics, etc etc......a few poeple buy art mags from him......he maybe sells twenty a month.........he sells maybe 9000 newspapers. the low end stuff with nudes on page three .....the people who buy the art mags don't say how come you're letting that riff raff in here. they just buy their mag and do what they do.  the analogy eludes to 4 things.

1,  you only have to buy or look at what you want to read.

2, any business will cater for the masses before catering for the minority.  (it's good business practice)

3, now and again one of those who buys the low end stuff may decide he wants an art mag in order to expand his horizons.

4, there is no fourth but if he's wise the guy who buys an art mag would be wise to smile when he's amongst a throng of tit hungry newspaper purchasers cos where i come from the locals would tear him a new bottom if he complained about them...obviously that couldn't happen here but in it's own right number 4 is an anologistical thought

jmo

billy

     Well compared to everyone here I am truely a lame dude. I can sketch pretty good but really don't get paid for any of my work. No works hanging in galleries etc. In fact my pictures are cobbled together with a few pieces of freeware shareware open source apps to get the look. I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on high end programs or the latest video card so if it is a challenge of who is better then I am out..

     One thing to talk about your exploits but in this medium do you enter competitions and put yrou skills up against other skilled users or are you in a vacum with people who give you empty praise. I just downladed a free version of poser. Well in the future I might put it to some use but really nto in the stadard way more of a way to rig and animate if need be my own creations that are made in Wings or another modeler. I did try it out a bit but really don't like working with it that way the look of the stuff is not consistant with what I want bu tI think it is useful.

Darkskies you need to go to other sites and get your stuff out there. Renderosity is not the only site I show my work in because I think I can do more and really the site culture here is not to my liking either. A lot of people are afraid of the pro sites because they feel unworthy or they are afraid of real criticism.  CG Talk is a perfect example I used to be terrified of that place. but I show my better stuff there now. I enjoy having the criticism. I think you need to go to another site and be ready to get away from renderosity a bit. Empty praise does not help one improve.

whilst i'm not scared of good or for that matter any kind of comment i'd like to have something to put on the table before i say dinners ready lol. i'm as worthy as they come but i know what shit is when i make it....at least by my standards. when it loses some of its stink i'll hawk it around.

i come from a grounding in poetry workshops  (not the namby pamby ones) and i can tell you this, if you can take what they dish out there you can take anything that can be dished out lmao.

billy

Quote - here's an analogy that may of may not hold water........

I understand the bottom dollar.  I do however believe in professional ethics, morality, and resposibility.  Anyone whos anyone knows that sex sells.  The trick is to envock a sexual response without flashing a couple fucking in front of everyone.  10% exposure is far sexier then a 100% exposure.  Who said that and why is that true? 

Quote -      Well compared to everyone here I am truely a lame dude. I can sketch pretty good but really don't get paid for any of my work. No works hanging in galleries etc. In fact my pictures are cobbled together with a few pieces of freeware shareware open source apps to get the look. I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on high end programs or the latest video card so if it is a challenge of who is better then I am out..

But, none of that is lame!!! 
The whole reason the 'comparisons' came up, at least on my part, was in response to dark's challenge which basically boiled down to a lame 'show me your glitz and bling'. I was hoping to illustrate to Dark what a lame and inappropriate judging and comparison it was he was trying to introduce. Unfortunately, the finer points of it didn't seem to register.

he's not lame compared to me lmao. in a 3d environment i'm a quadroplegic lmao.

the ods are if you can make something in a free or low end product you could make it in a high end one......and vice a versa......i think i've been told...how can you say anything...you don't even have a gallery......it's old hat to me....i don't need a gallery to give an opinion and not having one doesn't make my opinion less valid.  i'm a 50 yr old never was who grew into never will be but i've seen more of life than many, looked first hand at great works of art from places like egypt to france i've spoke with a few. drank with keats the forger who was as good as any master.  watched an artist do a sketch of someone wearing a rubber necklace (burning tyre) in south africa. i asked him why and he said casually...she's dead but art lives on. he was killed shortly afterwards by militia for showing his paintings of oppression to the public. experience is what it's all about experience of life. you can't see real pain and pleasure in a picture till you've lived it.  jmo

 i digress.

all i know is if you live in a glass house and throws stones, you're gonna get fuckin drenched when it rains lmao

billy

........ the finer points of it didn't seem to register......

oops, I need to clarify / make a correction here:

..didn't seem to register with Dark.

Not you Dann-o. After I read it, again, looked like I was saying it didn't register with you.

No worries. I am just trying to keep it light. Darkskies is trying to show off his pedigree. I am just trying to show how silly it is. Billy did do a nice figure but yeah it would be nice if he posted it. Kind of gives you an idea of where someone is comming from. I am still trying to get my head around three programs and make lessons and entertain my parents who are visiting.

Quote - No worries. I am just trying to keep it light. Darkskies is trying to show off his pedigree. I am just trying to show how silly it is.

Hehe, ain't that the truth!!!  I have a hard time believeing that what he says is really the truth. It looks to me more like him becoming a hero in his own mind to make himself feel better for not getting noticed here the way he expected he would or should be.
It's been done before, and he makes almost a textbook example.

But hey, the good thing is, I started talking to you and Billy a little bit, and that's been a pleasure, and a creative stimulus.

I'm looking forward to when you have more time and show us your next piece :)

if i posted it where dann o......if you say wher i will do with my next one....i think it's one of the reasons i'm sticking with the one prog for now. though i amrigging it in poser

you're too kind connie. the feelings mutual

billy

      I think darkskies is ok bu the is at that point where people often get the journeyman level. It gets frustrating at times. You are really better than most of the riff raff but not quite good enough to hang out with the exalted ones. The riff raff don't ackowledge that you really have more skill and the exalted ones well they are better and you find them intimidating. They do not give meaningless praise but give advice and criticism.

I think it is a godo idea to stick with a program also I need to block out some time to learn my new programs. I know Wings so well I and do things in half the time so it often seems futile to me to use another program. (Mostly due to experience with the program)

I think if Darkskies gets past this part he will grow but he has to realise that well growth as an artist is often difficult and I have been in that situation before with music guitar player. I got pretty good and only wanted to play classical and jazz fusion and found all my playing partners gone and the people who I should be playing with too intimidating. I failed the test myself. Real growth is often difficult.

why can't you do goofy dudes like that and put em in poser, maybe even make a few bucks at the same time, nice model

billy

My modeling meathod is nto so poser friendly. I made no body under the clothing. I woudl liek too. Ther eis nto that much money in it but there is some. I do have poser 5 I need to get to where I can rig the models in there.

it's a lot harder than i thought, i think i have the hang of it now but i thought the same last week lmao. i managed to get 5 bones working so i'm hoping i can go the whole hog now, after that i have to learn how do joint editing. as long as you have named parts you can bone it and it'll post fully clothed.

billy

Just sticking my head in. Looks like we're actually having discussion without getting too nasty. Just try and keep it light folks.  I can't believe the thread's still going.....

Sometimes.  Threads like this get on my nerves.  I [attempt to] use Poser.  I want to learn to create 3D art.  There are a lot of people, who start with Poser, as a stepping stone.  I don't believe in pose packs, to be honest.  

I'm constantly fighting with the hair room, rather then just loading a damn hair prop.  

My copy of Hexagon sits, staring at me.  And I have yet to render something, why?  Because I'm looking to do more then just hit the render button.  I'm shaping and contorting until I find a way to make the image really mine.  Hell, I'll probably begin the disaster of exporting the model to Hex so that I can begin the disaster of attempting my own morph to get the face, the body I want.    And I'm sorry, if I cannot manage to go to art school so I can call myself an artist.   I went to school, and studied psychology.

And what I see by the behavior displayed by DarkSkies is problematic impulse control symptomatic of threatened self esteem.  By lashing out a community that more than likely does not read this forum, he satisfies his desire for social validation by proving himself 'superior' in his own eyes, to them.   Rather than transform the anger he feels, and create motivation and desire to truly distinguish himself from the Poser 'artist', he attempts to crush the feelings of those who perhaps use Poser in an attempt to gain a greater understanding of 3D.   Rather than displaying empathy, and perhaps considering why others may use Poser, he relies on stereotypes of what a user of Poser is supposed to be.  

By using stereotypes, he demonstrates the ability to justify the anger he feels.  

See?  I can sound pretentious too!  

Disclaimer:  The above does not constitute a complete psychological profile, nor is it intended to treat or diagnose any or lack of problems in the person listed above.   Nor is it supposed to be taken seriously.   

we all have different levels and abilities to, software ,computers ,we learn many ways , and i see he`s got all you going , i think just leave it be ,