How do you feel about the fact that Poser 6 paid users have to pay the same price to upgrade to Poser 7 as those that got Poser 4 or 5 free or paid for an earlier version of Poser but didn't fork out any money to upgrade until Poser 7?  I feel it is shameful of a company to treat its paying customers this way and it would be shameful of me to not say anything.

Our funds help support the cost of the bandwidth to support the free downloads for Poser 5 no doubt and now they are equals to those that coughed up our hard earned money when it comes to upgrades.  I'm really angry about this treatment. And while I'm on a rant, their advertising of Poser 7 with content as the only information is hardly making me want to pay the upgrade price either.  It doesn't make me excited to have information dribbled out like this, it just ticks me off.

That's my opinion, I'd like to read yours.  If you are ok with the policy, I'd like to read that too and why you feel that way.  I'd like to feel better about this but just can't see any reason why this is fair.  If you are as unhappy with the company as I am, try not to get the thread locked while you type your feelings.

I'm not particularly unhappy with the policy because A) I don't expect anything in life to be fair, and B) on the grand scale of things in life that are not fair, this is way, way down at the bottom. Just ask anybody that hasn't eaten for two days while sleeping in a cardboard box.

It'd be nice if they had a more even handed way of making sure that everyone who uses their product pays about the same amount of money for it. But they don't, and that's the way it is, and I'm not gonna get stressed about it.

Besides, Poser is like the Barbie doll. The money ain't in the toy, it's in the clothes, and the cars, and the Malibu beach house that I'm sure she conned Ken out of.

Captain Jack

she conned Ken out of Malibu beach house. bitch

Yeah, I'm not too concerned with the policy for pretty much the same reasons as jevans69, but what does matter is that I get a good product for the money I part with.

I would have thought by this stage that Poser might be utilising current hardware better, and have a decent rigging system for figures that bend and pose really well. After all, it is supposed to be 'The Premier 3d Figure Design and Animation Solution' .

A fair pricing policy isn't going to make up for a poorly developed product.

Quote - ... I would have thought by this stage that Poser might be utilising current hardware better, and have a decent rigging system for figures that bend and pose really well. After all, it is supposed to be 'The Premier 3d Figure Design and Animation Solution' . ...

Unfortunately, a lot of those types of problems won't likely get significant improvement unless they do a re-write from scratch. The code base is very old, as software goes, and it's very hard to fix (I talked more about that in this thread). What they need to do is to re-write the internals, and almost certainly would need to change the data format (the CR2 file) to improve the way rigging works. Can you imagine the screaming from the community if one day we woke up and e-Frontier said, "Hey, Poser has a great new rigging system that's easy to use and really functional! Your old content is now useless!"

Ain't that a pretty thought, hmm?

Captain Jack

Quote - she conned Ken out of Malibu beach house. bitch

Yeah, but she was really hot, and Ken was having self-esteem issues, and, well... you know how it goes sometimes.

Just so you don't feel like a lone voice in the wilderness, I'll chip in and say that I was a bit surprised that loyal customers weren't offered a slightly better deal.  Yes, as a P6 user, I was a bit miffed that I'm treated just like a P4 user, and I would have expected that they would have had a slightly more refined pricing structure.  It's the first time I've ever upgraded a piece of software and been given the same deal as someone several versions 'behind.'

It's certainly not in the same league as having to live in a cardboard box (not that anyone ever said it was), but it's a minor annoyance.

I've pre-ordered anyway, but if P7 turns out to be a bit of a dog, it will feel a bit like adding injury to insult.

I'm patiently(?) waiting to see.

Another thing about rewriting the rigging, if they do make a new better rigging system, it is likely that the old one will be incompatible with it, so you will have to throw away all the poser items you have bought so far and start again or use an older version of poser.

If they make the new rigging compatible with the old one then it probably wont be improved as much as it could be.

What worries me a bit is, that E-frontier's first reason for getting Poser 7 is a lot of content. If I want to have content, I buy a content pack. Two new characters means a lot of new add on until they are really useable.

What would be more interesting is a new bones/rigging system, an improved file format (textfiles are no longer state of art) and a well defined export interface for content and scenes. Improvment in the hair and cloth room would also be great. I also would love to see a plug-in interface, so 3rd party extensions are possible not only via Phyton scripts.

My tool chain includes Carrara, Cinema 4D and Vue and I hope that E-frontier supports the other companies to build import filters soon. I'm quite satisfied with Poser 6 at the moment, so Poser 7 has to provide useable new features, otherwise I delay the upgrade...

Quote - What would be more interesting is a new bones/rigging system, an improved file format (textfiles are no longer state of art) and a well defined export interface for content and scenes. Improvment in the hair and cloth room would also be great. I also would love to see a plug-in interface, so 3rd party extensions are possible not only via Phyton scripts.

I like the fact that they use text files okay; computers today are fast enough that the extra size over a binary format isn't the same issue it once was. Now, the CR2 data format... sigh what a convoluted mess.

A plug-in interface would be superb, especially for outside renderers. I'd love to be able to plug Poser directly into POV-Ray or Yafray, for example. It'd be nice to have a fast exporter for creating a series of OBJ's for exporting elements as animated object frames, too.

'Course, you can't have everything. Where would you put it?

Captain Jack

a bit miffed here too... but hoping to see improvements on memory handling issues!

I agree with Diana, it is a slap in the face for Poser 6 owners, especially since you could pick up Poser 4 for a few bucks - has it been given out for a free by any of the big 3D magazines? That would really suck.

As for the 'grand scale' argument, that can be applied to every single thing that ever goes wrong in life since I don't live in Sierra Leone or Saudi Arabia.  House burned down? Robbed at gunpoint? Wrongly sentenced to a long prison term? One or more limbs amputated? You're still better off than most people in the third world but that doesn't mean you can't complain about it. In fact it's my responsibility as a soft Westerner to complain about things that don't really matter!

Quote - As for the 'grand scale' argument, that can be applied to every single thing that ever goes wrong in life since I don't live in Sierra Leone or Saudi Arabia.  House burned down? Robbed at gunpoint? Wrongly sentenced to a long prison term? One or more limbs amputated? You're still better off than most people in the third world but that doesn't mean you can't complain about it. In fact it's my responsibility as a soft Westerner to complain about things that don't really matter!

Sorry, I didn't quite explain myself well enough. I jut meant that's why I'm not upset, not that that should be used as a reason not to complain or that what e-Frontier is doing should be considered fair. There's no question that the policy isn't fair; it's like when you're little brother got an extra scoop of ice cream and you didn't. Or that some people are prettier than others. Or that Bill Gates, well... exists, really.

Please, complain away, shout it from the rooftops. I'm all for it, being quite the rounded-out Westerner myself.

Captain Jack

Still thinking about whether I want to upgrade.  I like Poser, but last time, there were better deals if you waited.  Not to mention that horrible memory bug the original version of P6 had. 

I can't wait - I'm a compulsive upgrader.  If there is a better offer for Poser 6 users in the future I can always cancell my pre-order.  Not gonna worry about it. 

Peggy

Quote - I like the fact that they use text files okay; computers today are fast enough that the extra size over a binary format isn't the same issue it once was. Now, the CR2 data format... sigh what a convoluted mess.

I agree on that. The CR2 data format is a mess. If they want to stay with a text file, they should support a kind of structured XML style. This would definitely increase the 'parse-ability' of the file. Since Poser 5 these textfiles became so big that it's really hard to work with them in a conventional editor. Also the absolute path information in saved files is a problem sometimes.

So I would prefer a binary format with a kind of improved CR2 editor or a structured XML-style text file. Another option would be to part the files and include them with statements. External morphs were a good idea for the beginning, but unfortunately not well communicated in the beginning. The material information could also be external.

I do not see why introducing a new method of figure rigging would set the old content obsolete. It all boils down to positioning facets in 3-D space and applying a texture to it, and it really does not matter where the facets came from, so Poser can easily have the two rigging methods run parallel. Of course old-style conformers will not work with new style figures, but that is about it.

As for my wish-list, there is multi-layering of textures, more clear object hierarcy, and most of all a better library management system. I use P3dO Pro now to kick Poser around and once you have Poser and the script and P3dO running it works like a breeze.

And of course they really should do something about this 'missing file'  thing, locking your PC up without asking you, forever it seems. Have a look at DazStudio, boys. Works a lot better there.

Did you buy Poser 6 so you could one day get a deal on Poser 7, or did you buy it to use it?

I think a low price across the board is a good idea. It helps to get more people in, which is what is most important.

The money isn't made on the application these days, its made on the clip art people buy after they have the application.

Poser now has to compete with Daz Studio, which is free. It may be more limited, but it is free. It is hard to compete with free. The difference in value between what Daz Studio and Poser 5 can do is only $20 at the moment. Poser 7 is now claiming it is $109 better than Poser 5. That's a tough sell, given what you can do with Poser 5 is not that bad. Even Poser 5 is a tough sell given what you can do with Daz Studio. It hinges on the cloth room for the most part - which is a great value, but only if you understand its potential, and a lot of users don't.

Those Poser 4 users and Poser 5 users did not get to enjoy using Poser 6 the way you did. That is what you paid for when you bought Poser 6.

Did you find no value in owning Poser 6 in the time you had it? Would you have been just as happy with Poser 4?

I wouldn't have been just as happy with Poser 4, but I think I would have been with Poser 5.  I haven't really used Poser 6's features much.

And for awhile, I was much less happy with Poser 6.  That memory bug was brutal.  Crashes, I can take.  A bug that wipes out your file is whole 'nother story.

I reckon it's not really surprising that the early adopters would pre-order before knowing all the details. the pull of poser became very compulsive as the 3rd-party vendors became so important to the market. the economics of scale may also dictate that e-frontier won't give an extra discount to P6 users, but those already have the advantage of a shorter learning curve, and time is money. it's well-known dogma here that some are more equal than others, hence P6 users will have the smallest shock when they start using P7.

I look at it this way,kudos to the people that got poser 4 and 5 for free and i missed a dam good sale :) Happens to me all the time lol

Attached Link: http://www.stewreo.de/poser/

You can do all that and more from Python. I have written support for 3Delight and a basic Yafray plugin (feel free to work on it, it's GPL licensed) and other people have created things like PoserPhysics, Wardrobe Wizard or GlowWorm.

I'm also a little disappointed that having bought P5 and P6 I'm asked to pay the same as someone who got P5 for free. But that's life.

For me though, EF are now competing for my cash with Maxon (I just upgraded to R10 of C4D) and Vue (I want to upgrade to V6I as soon as it's released). Also, with interPoser Pro to load Poser content into C4D, I just don't see the need for Poser itself any more, unless there are real, radical improvements and not just a bundle of content I don't want or need.

So I won't be rushing to upgrade.

I'm not going to rush to upgrade. I have an uncomfortable feeling that a "fixed" version of Poser would really need to have 64-bit, multiple-core, support, or it's just going to be left behind. Anyway, I'll let somebody else find out what works. P7 could easily be in new-computer territory, and I want to be sure that it is worth that cost. The software itself, upgrade or full price, isn't the expensive problem.

No big deal. Easy come easy go.

Stan

Just so you don't feel your thread has been hijacked - I have stated in other threads that I am very unhappy about the upgrade pricing and feel some concession should be offered to P6 users...

Lets analyze this:

Poser 4 is old. It has been reworked as Poser Artist for those who want to check it out.

Poser 5 is given away free for a limited time and is now for sale for $20.00

You like what you got for cheap? Then upgrade to the LATEST version coming down the pike.

The volume of $20.00 sales may help a little(?). There are those who wanted two licenses (or more) and they are playing it legal.

You dont want THOSE NEW folks to go away! You old timers hopefully will stick around. Already there are those who are like "Heck yeah! New Verision. I'm there!" and that's good.

I for one would love to pre-order but cannot at this time.

And if you search the forum here for the Poser x wishlists, I'm not sure if the question was REALLY Y answered if ones would be willing to forgo old content for a better/newer rigging system.

I am not upset abotu the pricing stucture either,  I never bought Poser 6 to get a better deal on Poser 7.  129 is a great price for Poser, regarless of which version I am using.

We can't know what improvments have been made either, so I will stay away from commenting on that as well...but Simon's eyes look weird.

I'm a little disappointed, but I'll live, and if P7 is significantly better than P6, I'll upgrade for the price EF is asking.

Hell, it's no different than those people who bought V3 or M3 from DAZ shortly after release, only to find out later that the figure's have been made free. I don't hear anyone griping that people who paid for V3 should get more of a discount on V4 than people who got her at 0 cost.

In reality the discount for the upgrade is only $20. Anyone can join CP and buy Poser 5 and the upgrade to poser 7 for 19.99+129.99 (149.98).

The people who should really feel cheated would be those new to poser who order the full version for $100 extra.

Quote - You can do all that and more from Python. I have written support for 3Delight and a basic Yafray plugin (feel free to work on it, it's GPL licensed) and other people have created things like PoserPhysics, Wardrobe Wizard or GlowWorm.

stewer you're right and especially Wardrobe Wizard is an excellent collection of Python scripts. But have a look, how smooth xfrog is integrated in Cinema 4D and watch the plugins for Carrara. Much better integration and higher flexibility!

I just think it is kind of silly to not disclose all the new and wonderful features that it may or may not have instead of trying to entice upgrades based solely on extra content. Content you can get later...what does the program do?...Has the interface been enhanced?...etc...

Eddie

Hell, it's no different than those people who bought V3 or M3 from DAZ shortly after release, only to find out later that the figure's have been made free.

DAZ made that right, by giving vouchers to people who had paid for the figures.

The people who should really feel cheated would be those new to poser who order the full version for $100 extra.

That would be me, when I first bought Poser.  Poser 5 came out a week later, and the price of Poser 4 dropped $120.  Boy, was I irate.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
I'm all for getting everything as cheap as possible.
I should get Poser 7 for real cheap considering I have paid for upgrades since Poser 1.
I did skip 3 however, and opted to buy 4...so 1,2,4,5,6 ....  Will I buy 7? Probably ... and hopefully for $129 or less. The upgrades have always been around $99... so with the cost of inflation and all that, $129 is more than reasonable....but  I do agree that those with P6 should get a better discount than P4 , 5 users. It should be graduated....like 99, 119, 139, etc.

Now that I've posted that, didn't the exact same thing happen when P6 was released.? I remember posting this graduated pricing structure then as well :)
There was a better deal a bit later in the game, however, but if my memory is correct, it did not include that SE winterqueen deal, or the free copy of Shade 7 LE.

It's nice to see a discussion like this here.  I thank all that replied.  I am aware it isn't the end of the world but it feels bad and I'm not so hot to upgrade anymore.

Actually, I bought Poser 6 specifically for the upgrade to 7. I put it way up on the top shelf, still in the shrink-wrap. Every now and then I'd look at it and mutter "someday they'll release v.7 -  that's where you come in, buddy".

If all they're offering are some surface changes and a new pipeline for their content I will definitely pass. How many thigh-high rubber boots with matching bustiers can one V3 wear?

Quote - How do you feel about the fact that Poser 6 paid users have to pay the same price to upgrade to Poser 7 as those that got Poser 4 or 5 free or paid for an earlier version of Poser but didn't fork out any money to upgrade until Poser 7?  I feel it is shameful of a company to treat its paying customers this way and it would be shameful of me to not say anything.

Depends how you view it.  Should a p6 user be pissed off that another user found p4 and p5 enough to satisfy their needs?   I went from 2 to 4 to 6 now should I be ashamed that I never bought 3 and 5? or pro pack?  Should I feel bad that I never used 2 and 4 execept maybe for 2-3 days total in the time they were out for varying reasons since I found them lacking?  Should I be pissed off at Daz after buying Bryce 5.5, which remains unopened still, back in january that they offered it for free or for around $10 recently?  Shoud I be thankful I only bought that pos hexagon 2 for the 1.99 intro cost instead of full price?   That answer is a resounding yes. 

Last I checked both companies were in business to generate a profit to stay in business via software sales.  Software upgrades are the greatest scams ever created since somehow people get it in their heads that once a new version is released their old one needs to be replaced no matter how well it works for them.  I suppose I  miss something in a eula along the way stating everyone from a point on now that you bought a version of software from said company must continue to buy every update and new version.

The only disrespect they could show their user base is to not have a upgrade option at a reduced price while jacking up the new versions price.  Noone is holding a gun to your head to buy it I guess is what I'm saying.

I agree with modus0, if Poser 7 is worth it, I will purchase it.  Has anyone noticed the system requirements, is it me are did they increase significantly for a PC?

Sharen

I'm in the same boat as Dave-so.

I too have used Poser since Version 1, upgraded each time - including P5, which I was actually happy with and which was working fine for me. Well ok, some glitches, but nothing as bad as most people seem to have gotten.

It would be nice if there were a distinction made between P4/P5 owners and P6 owners in terms of pricing, even if it were the $20 P5 apparently sells at.

I doubt it will happen, but would be nice if it were.

And this time I opted for the download / burn to CD option because P6 took over 2 weeks after release to get here in a box...

Quote - I agree with modus0, if Poser 7 is worth it, I will purchase it.  Has anyone noticed the system requirements, is it me are did they increase significantly for a PC?

Sharen

I'm right up with SAMS3D - In terms of the System Requirements. 

The program itself looks like it would be well suited for high-end computers (considering that it needs 512/768 or higher of RAM usage and a 'DVD-ROM') - and with all the talk of another MS Windows platform 'Vista' needing the same requirements (again 1GigRAM and a DVD-ROM) ... kinda makes you wonder.  :ohmy:

From what I saw when they made the announcement, I wasn't impressed at first.  It seemed quite early in the game for them to start up another 3d program yet we're still in the Poser 6 mode.   It's been thread after thread about talks of P7 and now it's here -- wow, oh wow! ['scuse the sarcasm]

But then again, I too am not happy about them shrugging off Poser 6 users for a discount.  I, a Poser 6 user myself when it first shipped last year, and been a user of Poser 4 since '03.  Unfair to say the least, but that's life!

It's two sides from all of this -- On one hand I'm shocked and in awe -- since we're using version 6, now up comes 7 and we still have to pay for the upgrade; and on the other, It seems like it will be so much in this next application that I'm not amazed at all (hence the System Requirements), unless they have all the things that all the posters here are looking for (e.g.: better rigging) -- Don't you just love their 'secret' surprises?

All and all, I will wait until I see some improvements  that will make me want to get it, despite the cost...  I'll hold off next time.

JB

we'll either be impressed or dismayed i doubt they'll be any middle ground lol.

as far as p6 users , maybe they should get treated a bit better price wise but i say good on you to all those who got a free poser with the chance of an upgrade. it's nice to see people get something this way. i suspect p5 was given free for this very reason. more will pay for an upgrade than the full price. if a lot wouldn't buy p5 , they prob wouldn't buy p7.but now they have it for free  they may pay to upgrade to  p7

billy

i suspect p5 was given free for this very reason. more will pay for an upgrade than the full price. if a lot wouldn't buy p5 , they prob wouldn't buy p7.but now they have it for free  they may pay to upgrade to  p7

Very good point Billy, that hadn't occurred to me, but I think you're right.

Possible on P5 --> P7, but it still begs the question why the upgrade price from P4/P5 is the same as the upgrade price from P6.

Just my opinion. I think P6 owners ought to get some pricing slack over P4/P5 owners, since P6 is the current version.

cos think the p6 users will go along with it even if they complain. they've shown their willingness to fork out the cash for p6 so the assumption will be they'll do the same for p7 upgrade. from what ive seen in these threads they're right

billy

Right, I am am happy that someone started this thread because since I read about the 'anticipated release of P7', I am fuming.

I also think that we we P6 users should get a better deal, especially since if you order P6 now you get 7 for free(!!) and you can of course purchase the upgrade if you got P5 for free, for the same price than us...I think the loosers in this game are those who bought P6 last year. I feel these were 250 bucks down the drain...

And then..that is not all, we are left with a bloaty P6 version in which one can't render complexe scenes without chopping texture size and other little tricks, without expecting yet another SR to maybe fix this since all that is dropped with the release of a new version.

Another insult in P6 was of course the fact that we had to BUY the morphs for their content at RDNA as they didn't provide them in the first place. Now P7 comes with an 'amazing casino', well frankly, I couldn't care less because all new content requires us to buy the stuff that goes along with it and I'll delete it anyway...

Frankly, I feel insulted and hope that E-Frontier reads all feedback about the 'anticipated release' because so far, only the minority is really anticipating whilst the rest is waiting to see..

Lev 

and let me add, I think that P5 being released for free and now for 20 bucks is their response to DAZ Studio and so is the release of P7 since P6 is bloaty and probably wasn't worth the effort in regards of fixing all these issues, so the meeting ended in 'Let's release a new version'...

From the Pre-order FAQ:

BEWARE THE SMALLPRINT!

I recently bought Poser 6. Do I get a free upgrade to Poser 7?

If you purchased Poser 6 (full version or upgrade) on or after October 11, 2006, you will get a FREE electronic download copy of Poser 7 Special Edition when it becomes available.

I recently downloaded Poser 5. Do I get a free upgrade to Poser 7?

No. You first must upgrade to Poser 6 ($129.99) after October 11, 2006 to receive a FREE upgrade to Poser 7.

 

It still looks like the free copy owners of P5 get the upgrade for the same price - but at least they aren't getting a free upgrade to P7.

 

if you buy p6 now you get a free copy of p7 and not an upgrade, if you have p5 you have to pay for an upgrade and not a free copy.  if you bought p6 prior to the 11th you have to pay the same as p5 upgraders and you only get an upgrade which is different than a free copy.  the people who got p5 free not only get that free. they get a p7 upgrade free. remeber they pay for the p6 upgrade.....if they do they get p7 upgrade free. p6 users only get one upgrade p5 users get two hence one is free.

billy

Quote - Actually, I bought Poser 6 specifically for the upgrade to 7. I put it way up on the top shelf, still in the shrink-wrap. Every now and then I'd look at it and mutter "someday they'll release v.7 -  that's where you come in, buddy".

If all they're offering are some surface changes and a new pipeline for their content I will definitely pass. How many thigh-high rubber boots with matching bustiers can one V3 wear?

well if all you did with p6 was top shelf it, had you  waited you could have bought p6 now and got a free copy of p7 though that would have meant you'ld had to have had 20/20 hindsight lol

billy

You have to have a DVD-ROM in order to run P7? Great, that's just great, I don't have a DVD-ROM drive in my present box or going in the new one. I don't watch DVD's on my  computer so I never saw a need for one. Now we have to have an extra piece of hardware, which won't be used much, in order to use the disk that comes with P7?

they should have an ordering option for CD or DVD packaging.
EF forces their whim on the customer...another act of great customer service. The download option is too large as well. They should at least break it down into several files...such as add on content, figures, program, etc