Other than renderosity, I also place some of my work on elfwood, which I've been a member of for a long long time.    I haven't added anything in a long time, as I've been over here at renderosity.

Today, I got notified I made Moderators Choice for my Image "The Valkyrie", and I was thrilled pink!   Its only the second time I got such an honor, so I rushed out of my email to go see it for myself.

Then, i start seeing the comments (some I actually deleted off, two actually by accident meaning to respond), which were horrendous.  Technicalities that I called it in the description a "painting", is it really one?   A 3-d modeller calling it not really art, and "poser is cheap and lifeless"..........   the gist of most had nothing to do with the image itself as a whole, but how it was made.

This image took me HOURS and HOURS to make, regardless of poser use or not!

I found my elation........ deflated in an instant, and questioning myself if I should ever make another image, and maybe by some standard it isn't really "art"....... or maybe I just suck all together.

I have seen topics here before, that others get slammed or "blacklisted" or whatever for using CGI-poser-bryce whatever.   I have no idea what to think, and to go from that high to that low that fast......  I wonder if I am an artist at all.   My day is ruined, so is my desire to make art.

1). Who did you do the image for, you or them? 2). Who's opinion is of important to you - the moderators who chose you or the individuals who commented negatively? 3). Is it possible to please everyone? If you made the image for 'them', the individuals who commented negatively have the opinion that is of more importance to you and it is possible to please everyone, then you are entirely correct in feeling bad about yourself and your art. However, if any of those conditions don't exist, then I encourage you to take the hurt feelings you're feeling (if you're normal) and express them in a new piece of art. Catharsis is good and some great work comes out of it. In the meantime, I want to assure you you aren't alone. I know it's hard to believe but not everyone likes my art either. [friendly encouraging smile]

If your going to let a few comments kill your elation or desire to continue then perhaps you need to look into more traditional art then.  It's silly though.  I don't give a rats ass about what others think of my work.  I know all the time it took to set it up and render it and all the times I was not satisfied with this or that and had to make changes and render again, and again, and again.  No, it's not traditional art but digital art is of this world made.  Look at all the 3d cg movies that make MILLIONS, don't hear of folks bitching about that too much now do you??     While I am schooled in traditional art I am in love with digital 3d and 2d and again could give a rats ass as to what others think of my works.  Hell I have many galleries on my own web site with lots of my stuff.  I like what I do and that's the most important thing.  If you do art to please others then your missing the point of art in the first place.  Art is soul food for me, without it I'm less than myself so I do it anyway I can do it. 

I hope your find your inner mojo to continue on!

You know, you're right.   Just got blindsided, thanks for the perspective.

I shouldn't care what someone thinks, I should care what I think, though it is at times hurtful........ and unnessesary to get slammed.

I won't address the concept of what constitutes "art" and what tools may or may not be valid in the creation of same, because that horse is constantly being flogged.

That out of the way, let me say this: please, please, please, do not allow the comments of others to take away from you the desire to create. Regardless of what "art" may consist of, it is an act of self-expression, a way for you to share your ideas and visions with the world. Some may like it, some may not, some may deride it for prejudicial reasons that have nothing to do with the piece itself. Whatever may be, don't let the words of little yapping dogs take you away from it.

One piece of art has this or that technique that makes it more interesting to view, another piece of art evokes more emotion than a third, yet another will sell for millions, and 'round and 'round it goes. Some people will like your work, some won't, and the truth is that the ones that don't like it are much more likely to speak up. Aside from legitimate critiques offered by legitimate critics, there are those who simply like to tear other people down, and they go around doing it. They can't help being what they are (which to my mind, is mostly a nuisance) so don't let them get you down.

Keep on plugging away, make your art because you like it and it expresses what you want. Pay the rabble no heed.

One thing you posted you should remember.

The MODERATORS of the site picked your image.

Enjoy!

you know...some people always have to see the negative...I don't care how a piece of art is made..the only thing I care about is the feeling, emotion, or thought provoked by it.  I am really sorry that some negative people crashed your party...but you didn't make it for them anyway...Do what YOU do because is is what YOU love...the rest is gravy :)

"I shouldn't care what someone thinks" I hope you aren't thinking that's what I meant. I do care what people think, but I care about some opinions more than others. It also depends upon what they think. If certain people here said I had done something well or poorly, I would care because I respect their judgement. I can learn from technical criticism. If they said they liked it or not, that would be different - I want people to like my work but I also know that everyone has their own subjective tastes. If they didn't like something I did I'd be dissappointed but not devastated. The opinions of strangers matters less to me. Additionally, there are some things I've done specifically for me where the opinions of others matter less. And some things I've done for the entertainment of others - in which case the opinions of others mattered a little more. You can care too much or too little. The only time not caring at all is positive is when something is 100% self expression and you've done it perfectly. It's all about perspective and balance. ;-)

12/4/06

Would it be inappropriate for Tiari to give us a link so that we can see the work that was honored as a moderator's choice?

LMK

in the hands of a bad user, poser renders ARE cheap and lifeless IMVHO, but in the hands of an experienced user, poser renders can rival anything produced by software packages costing 10X as much. and that goes double for P7, if the rumours are true.

Quote - in the hands of a bad user, poser renders ARE cheap and lifeless IMVHO ...

And, of course, the same can be said of pencils, paint, charcoal, or anything else. As you say, Miss Nancy, it ain't the medium, it's the artist.

If there be anyone who thinks otherwise, I suggest having them take a look at this video. If they hate Poser, I'm sure they have black feelings about MS Paint, too.

Here is the link to the elfwood site where the image is:

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/i/kirin/valkyrieelfwood.gif.html

Thanks so much for the comments, I do realize I had a moment of, what the heck? Probably because I always post my images here, in the renderosity gallery, where 3d and obviously poser is embraced........ whoops lol.  

And I love what I do, nuff said.

I've had a look at the image and it's nice, I can see why the mods there chose it.

Can I say that I don't think the comments were really all that bad? You got a couple of 'wow, awesomes', some genuine constructive criticism and the obligatory 'I don't like Poser' type remarks you get almost anywhere outside of the main Poser sites. Overall, I wouldn't feel bad about those comments - they were mostly pretty friendly even if not complimentary. See the comment that someone got over at deviant that was discussed in this forum recently - now that was a nasty comment!

Poser, and art in general, is not for those looking for the approval of others. I'm way past being
offended by anything people say about my work. If they say it's crap, I see it more as a reflection on them than me. Just hope we don't get to the stage whem everyone feels compelled to only say nice things.

I agree, spedler.  I read every comment, and on the whole, the were positive, even when they had what could be argued as a valid critical comment (so someone finds lens flares "corny" ... big whoop -- if you are trying to create something in a particular genre that is usually rife with corn, and fantasy artwork is that  -- then you go for the corn).  Have you ever studied Maxfield Parrish??  As cornball as they come.  It's still phenomenal stuff.

If people post something about branching out, or trying something different, try thinking of it this way .... they think what you did is good, they just think that you could be an even better artist if you stretched your limits.  I think it's meant more an encouragement than a denegration of what you did produce.

And really, who gives a flaming fandango as to whether it is a "painting" or a "painted over photograph" or a Poser render.  It is what it is, an extremely well done image.  I don't care what tools you used to produce it.  If someone wants to create an art site that is limited to only certain types of media used in only certain ways, then fine ... let them, and people who use tools they don't respect or allow will just go elsewhere.

(oh, and by the way, great artists have been doing the equivalent of "painting over photographs" for years, ever since the discovery of the camera oscura .... anything to save time.  Tell them to read up on Vermeer and then work on pulling their foot out of their mouth.)

calling a piece of 3d art a painting to many isn't a technicality. the ones who questioned it as a painting still had good things to say so i'd discount them as bad comments. on the whole i'd say they weren't nasty. i can understand how you feel though. 

why do you wonder if you're an artist or not. why is your desire to make art eroded? forget about what you or others think  you are and do what you enjoy doing. i'd have to use poser for ayear to do anything as good as your pic. is it art , isn't it art does anyone really care. ask yourself this...did you enjoy doing it? are you pleased with the outcome....will you do better in the future.
if your answers are yes to these three questions then you're a lucky person who has a lot to look forward to. we can always take something positive from something negative. you actually made a couple of people  who don't care much for poser work say well done. all be it they said they didn't like poser work first but think of it. you got them to say something positive.  i think the lens flare comment valid so you can take that and turn it into a positive. with that comment in mind you'll prob try and refine the flare so it's better if you use it next time.

just grow a thicker skin, accept that not all negative comments are bad and carry on enjoying what it is you do....and stop questioning if you're an artist or not. question what you do not what you are. jmo

billy

12/5/06

Tiari:

Wow!

Allow me to be the next to congratulate you on being honored. It is richly deserved recogrition, and your work is an example to which one may aspire. I hope to eventually be able to do work half as excellant. Not, being qualified, I cannot offer "constructive criticism." I am, however, very qualified to praise what I like, and I like this picture.

Good work,

LMK

wow, if you felt discouraged by those comments, maybe you shouldn't  allow  comments at all.  those were glowing.  if anything the one person who said they had a problem with poser was basically saying, "well, she looks kind of generic to me, but that's poser, not you."  it's a gorgeous pic, but that is a very standard looking v3 who could be morphed or tweaked or whatever some more just to make her a little less generic.  nice as it is, i think the person who said "Liason" was stronger is right.  it's actually one of the more bland in your very lovely gallery.   me, i much prefer "Prince Sebastian" and "Tiarilaisis."  i think they're more striking, with more interesting contrasts and more personality to the figures.  in the case of the latter, also a more interesting composition. 

i've seen threads at cgsociety that were much more critical, and constructively so, and received by the artists as encouragement.  be more confident in your work; a few people saying how it could be better but they think it's very skilled is hardly worth getting upset over.  especially when they point to your other pieces as examples.  so kudos!

Hey Chear up, The most important thing is being happy in what you are doing. There is no one on earth that is going to please everyone. I bet you could look at some of the works that the critics made of your art, and something about it you may not like. Thats the way the world is.

Look at the bright side. There was a group of people looking at a piece of fine art analizing it. "Wow, what debth, what insight." A guy comes up and says, "Yes, my pet monkey is quit the artist." 

Strive to do your best, And be happy you have the tools to work with that make you happy. I'm sure the judges that gave you a bad grade, so to speek, wouldn't want you to look at some of there work they had done sometime. 

I remember when I just got out of Art School, I was the second best artist in my class. A girl in honesty was better than I. I went to apply for a job as an Illustrator. Which I really had no clue at what was involved in the real world. As I was sitting waiting for the interview, the boss was chewing out one of the Artist. I can't remember what it was all about. Then he called me in. He was expecting to see someone with experience and a major portfolio. He glanced over it and said, You call this art. At the time I felt bad, but I had a positive attitude. I told my self, I know I'm good. 

I went to an Art School and Got a job at a Major TV Station in my City at the time. When I looked back and thought about what he had said. He was right in the since that I wasn't ready for the big time then. You will chuckle about it one day. Just smile and be happy, life is to short to let someone get you down. Good Luck!

Sorry about the typo, the 4th column should be High School, not Art school. I have dyslexia, and have trouble proofreading my stuff.

One of the keys to true personal freedom is to not waste your time worrying over what others think of you.

We learn early on to desperately seek after the approval of our peers.  This is especially so during those troubled teenage years, when the quest for peer approval can become all-consuming.

But after a time -- one comes to recognize the obsessive, never-ending (and never succeeding) quest for approval for what it is: a form of mental/emotional slavery and bondage.

Don't misunderstand me to be saying that the opinions of others shouldn't matter at all.  But your own sense of self-worth shouldn't be given over to the "kindness of strangers".  That's a dangerous place to look for your personal worth.....because those same strangers will almost always be of the firm opinion that they are better 'n you.  And that underlying, core attitude on their part -- the automatic assumption of their own innate superiority over the rest of the world (and especially over you) -- is the reason behind why they treat others the way that they do.

And that's also the reason why they are not to be taken seriously.

They are going to die someday, too.  And chances are: even the memory of them will be gone shortly afterwards.  I've seen this happen.  I've seen some very successful, powerful people die relatively young.  And I've also seen them being very quickly forgotten about.

History only remembers a bare handful, out of all of the billions of people who have ever lived on this earth.

So......from that perspective: don't worry so much about what others have to say.  And there's this to consider, too: many people are simply motivated by envy.  And they will say nasty things.  It's got something to do with human nature.

FYI, On elfwood I had deleted out the most severe, three different comments (not the ones i did accidentally) that were pretty scathing.   Considering my young daughters and their friends regularly check out my stuff there, I couldn't leave them up (and they wouldn't have stayed up with the moderators anyway).

Basically, I realize the error (dare i say stupidity?) of my thought process.... and in general i've been cocooned in the lovely lake that is renderosity, that I really hadn't been privy or exposed to the negativity towards poser.  At least, not towards me persea.

I always like critique, but when it comes to the method, not the image..... and picking that method apart........ it did for a moment make me faulter.

Eh, I'm over it, and I appreciate the words of wisdom to shake me out of the stoopid pool.

Generally, the comments there don't seem negative at all to me. The pic looks pretty good. You clearly put in the effort. The fact that it was picked by the mods speaks enough by itself. One crit that I will add, however, is to never, ever use GIF as a final output for a picture with millions of colors, such as this. GIF has an extremely limited palette which has caused the ugly, intense banding throughout this work. Her back leg and the lens flares are showing it the worst. Rather, use JPG at about 80-85% compression. Your artwork will definitely look much better; more like you probably intended. A side benefit to using the correct format is that your filesize will likely decrease as well. Hopefully you take this crit in the benevolent spirit in which it was intended. I actually like the pic alot, despite not liking the genre much. ps- Just went and looked at more of your gallery over there. You have some really striking work! You also seem to have a clear vision of what you're trying to accomplish. Looks like you normally use jpg. Why did you use gif on this one? - just curious.

Sadly i didnt use gif, elfwood converted it from jpg which i always upload in....... no clue why.  I'll try in a day or two to reload it, maybe compress it more to fit their genre and it should be better

wow, so this is a bummer post?
one of your pictures got moderators choice, that's a good thing! some peps didn't like it, some did. hey, but the moderators elected you. so unless they "as a whole" are incredibly screwed up people...i say congratulations!

I would not have called it a painting, I would have called it 3D art, which is what I do on my elfwood gallery.

Or it could have been called a hybrid - 'photo manip' of 3D art, what so many here call postwork. But I would just call it 3D art myself.

Calling it a painting invited that line of attack by letting people 'assume' you were trying to hide the 3D underneath.

But it is a nice piece.

VERY nice image. Congrats! But, yeah, I'd call it 3D art. Amazing the number of anti-Poser folks out there. I got an incredibly viscious email from a visitor to my site a couple of weeks ago. Practically foaming at the mouth. 
Oh, well. Snobs everywhere.

The only nasty comments I ever get from Elfwood are over anti-boobies attacks... I usually just brow beat them down with references to historic sensuality in art dating back to boobies in cave paintings... and that my own second cousins who still live in the Amazon have a lot more showing that just their boobies... and my work is not the most 'boobie heavy' work over there by even an extreme stretch of the imagination.

Next time I think I'll give the rant about bare-chested women in 16-18th century Europe being a sign of virtue and virginity... This is why those 'justice' statues always feature a woman with one breast revealed. It was to show she was morally beyond reproach.

I've rarely gotten the '3D isn't art' comment because I go overboard making it clear I am a 3D artist and what that means to me.

Tiari, I think you did an oustanding job on the render. I have to congratulate you on getting the reflections from the swords almost realistic. Those types of reflections are difficult to achieve. Many, many KUDOS!!!!

Let's reverse the argument to painting purists - all digitalised versions of their work appearing on the internet can never be called paintings as long as they are presented on the internet.  The Poser purists have spoken.

no but if you want semantics they can be called copies of paintings, you can also have digital painting where color is applied by brush or the digital equivilent

billy

You know what sucks about oil paintingsl you can always tell an oil painting was an oil painting. It never looks real and it never looks like anything but an oil painting.

And watercolors, my gosh, that stuff is sooo... obvious. You can always spot it. Talk about lame.

Worse is photography. All the models are premade, and the artists usually refuse to give God props over the credits, and it all just looks like a cheap knockoff of the modeler's work. And you can tell its a photo. All they do is point their tool at the premades and click the 'make art' button. Freaking lame man... Photography sucks, especially that Ansel Adams guy - I mean, talk about unoriginal. He doesn't even bother to repose or modify the modeler's work at all - his entire scenes are premades. God could sue his butt off for that... Talk about a fake, heck, he's a poser...

:D

Here's my elfwood site:
elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/b/r/brianfw/

And I introduce my work with this:

As for who I am now, I've been learning 3D artwork since December of 1999. I use a variety of tools to do this and have found it to be quite a bit more challenging than I'd suspected beforehand. By 2002 I finally starting feeling satisfied with my 3D work enough to share it here as well.

Kirin has a similar notation on her gallery:

All of my work is generally 3d-Graphics based, and painted using a wacom 3 tablet. Learning and working in 3D modeling, texturing and image creation is an extremely labor intensive task, one of which I am still mastering. Going from "plastic looking" to fantasy realism is a challenge, but one I believe well worth the efforts. It is simply not an easy way out, or a blender instant gratification process.

Aristotelician philosophy defines art as imitation, and even though this is a rather narrowing definition of it, it partially works. Most artists, except for those dealing in non-figurative art, imitate an existing element/set of elements in order to express something. If Picasso glueing teapots and used shoes together can be called an artistic work, if Duchamp could get the art community's recognition for his "ready-made" movement, if anyone can see a bunch of Campbell Soup cans as art, then, prefabricated and slightly altered elements and lighting like used in Poser deserve the same recognition. Do not let anyone insult your art. Those who usually do so are biased towards Poser not because Poser offers a somehow limited scope in their eyes: they simply put an emphasis on how the tool THEY use, should it be Maya, 3DS or whatever else, is so superior in their eyes. Why do they do it? Because they have a true veneration for their tool? Hell no. They don't have stock options in Maya either. Boasting about your tool is somehow gloating about yourself, so they think they'll make themselves looking better by talking bad of you. That's ego masturbation, and nothing more. Let them rot and keep going :)

don't let them get you down.  I've had a number of neg comments about my art, over the years, and I profitted from it (not with money but with giggles).  
at the end of the day, you are the only one that has to be happy with your work.  Van Gogh died penniless and unknown, try buying one of his paintings today!  Be happy with what you create for you.  if others like the work, that's just gravy!  Indulge in who you are, what you do... ignore the snobs and the rabble.....
"a Critic knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing"

Quote - Most artists, except for those dealing in non-figurative art, imitate an existing element/set of elements in order to express something.

Abstract artists, the good ones at least, also try to express things, and often they will imitate an existing set of elements, just not traditionally "figurative ones". For example, Kandinsky uses rectangles and lines.

I felt the same way, I'm a member at CGtalk, and according to the modelers over there poser is blacklisted, as a short-cut to modeling!

I've seen what it takes in order to "Model" a figure, not only do you have to TRY and learn the COUNTER intuitive system/interface within these programs,{In some cases 6-12 month learning curve!} but you have to PAINSTAKINGLY manipulate ploygons, and verticles in order to even come up with something that doesn't resemble a lump of mal-formed cheeze!

A process that is in some cases is in complete opposition to the creative impulses of an Artist, that resembles more of a technician's skill, as opposed to an Artistic one!

The blistering irony is that these "Modelers/technicians" yelp on, and on about 3D "NOT getting recognition from the traditional Art-world due to the alleged ease of creating their artwork!" that they, themselves are becoming that in which they are fighting against!....

By not letting Poser artists get recognition in the 3D art-world, due to the alleged ease of creating their artwork!

I'm also a traditional Artist as well,<--Drawing, painting,REAL sculpturer W CLAY!}But I also like the 3D field as well...
But don't get me wrong, the 3D modelers work is one of exceptional beauty, and craftsmanship, to be envied by ANY traditional artist!<--Just so long as they DON'T get a big head about it!}

But these constant yammerings "For true recognition in their field" have been debated amongst the Modern Artists,Fine Artists, and the "Lowly" Fantasy/Comic-book Artists<--Yours truly here!} forEVER! So just chalk it up as snobs not accepting a newer form of Art that doesn't fit into their little world, and keep on creating!

looking at this thread it seems poser artists are just as voiciferous to those who don't use poser as the modellers are to poser users. stop the crappy name calling. stop lighting or fueling the fire of snobbery, stop retaliating. just do what you do where you can do it. same goes for the modellers. stop the snobbery and show some human kindness. stop bitchin and start aprecciating anothers efforts. if you don't like it fine. but stop trying to demean it. and the poser users. lots of you sit astride just as high a horse...get off it.  sorry but both sides of thise thread in many cases seem so purile. that teapot you did trekki.....i actually thought it looked good, genuinely good. if in you're show of parody or whatever you took the trouble to make it look right. you sorted the texture, you made the lid fit....then you castigate it as a run of the mill render. lets not tar all of either side of the 3d coin with the same brush. we have good and bad, skilled and not so skilled in both. instead of lashing out get some tuts done to help the beginners. do one or two about lighting, scenery, layout and composition, share the knowledge instead of procrastinating about it. same with the modellers. stop looking at people as though they're all skilled artists. look at them as human beings who are doing something they like or even love. make the models for them to use. explain how you made the models, tell them how you started modelling and what progs would be good if they wanted to start. stop the fucking bickering no ones a better person than anyone else and thats what it's all about, it isn't about art.it's about people, human beings....why not act like one...it would make for a better 3d world all round. this is also and mainly applicable to the other similar thread but i wrote it here first and realised it wasn't worth posting twice...probably not worth posting once but who cares .jmo

billy

@**billy423uk:

 I agree, but my wording is quite different due to my own experiences...That's why I tried to give my take on the matter. I am trying to point out the folly of ridiculing someone's artwork due to their personal views in their own style, because everyone's style will ultimately conflict with someone else's established style, and to keep creating no matter what!

BTW: I'm not fanning the flames, because it will always be there, and will be as long as Artists exist...And why there's a debate on this side, is because we're still feeling the effects of...Heh, "Poser discrimination!" LOL!

As evidenced by the Original poster's thread!
**

There are "master craftsmen" and there are "artists." Sometimes there is overlap between the two, but sometimes there is extreme dichotomy. The craftsmen take delight in creating something that's technically well done. A lot of modelers are like that - they take great pride (justifiably) in the quality of their creations. Artists tend to take great pride in the aesthetics and the impact of the aesthetics on the viewer. To the craftsman, aesthetics alone mean nothing - technical skill in creation is the ultimate goal. To the artists, the technical creation alone means nothing - the aesthetic is the ultimate goal. [Note: Real life isn't necessarily either/or. It's a matter of degree.]