I seems to me, IMO, that the Poser Daz gap has gotten bigger with the introduction of V4.

I think it started with the Face room episode. No support for the Mil figures and  Daz tried not to give proper P5 support and started to build Daz/Studio.  Daz gives DS Base for free. EF tries to compete with Daz figures with the poorest rigged figures I have ever seen. EF builds P7 with thier version of Mimic. Daz builds the new V4 so that you don't have full use of her in poser unless you hack the Cr2 and what is with the dial limits set. Daz must consider everyone to be idiots and need these settings to save us from something.

Is this a big sign of things to come?  Will EF keep making crappy figures to be used in a much improved Poser? Will Daz, full well knowing thier figures are built better, continue down the path of making them harder to use in Pose so you need to use DS or have a degree in Hacking?

I would love to have Poser with complete support for Daz figures that are not locked.  They say competition is a good thing. But alas, I just see the gap getting bigger.

What do you think.

I think Daz3d doesn't even run on my computer! (Intel Mac)
What's locked about the V4 though? I have been gone from the scene for awhile (Took Poser 7 to bring me back into the hobby)...

What are you not able to do with V4 in Poser?  It seems like DAZ went pretty far out of their way to accommodate EF, e.g. giving you 9 magnetize clothing sets for use with Poser when they aren't necessary in D|S.  I don't think they're trying particularly hard to compete, they just want to sell their products regardless of which posing app you choose.  If they were really serious about it, D|S would do dynamic clothing or the like.

Has the gap grown wider? Yes. No...wait a minute....no.

Seriously, I do detect something of a dissonance between the two companies. Perhaps DAZ has plans to release a fully featured program of its own to compete with Poser. Wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened.

I think it's just normal business.
 Every business always wants the biggest piece of the consumer pie.
 Do we really want EF and DAZ to be BFFs always agreeing on everything? Prices would skyrocket and quality would drop. Just look at anything that is controlled by a monopoly and you'll see I'm right. (To be specific, last summer I paid 4 dollars USD a gallon for gas. Guess why.)

I haven't had any problems with V4. I'm able to morph her the way I want.  And I think EF is getting better at their figures. Fine, the people still need work. Alot of work.. But the animals are getting pretty nice. The Zodiac Dog is as good as the basic MilDog in my opinion. If he had a morph package I would rate him higher than the full MilDog. The Baby Animals are very well done, and new Holsteins are lovely. 

I think both companies are headed toward the same goal, a full service site (for lack of a better phrase), but coming at it from different sides. DAZ is going from content to program and EF from program to content. 

And I? I am happily scooping up freebies, cashing in on big promo sales, and enjoying the ride :thumbupboth:

What you can't do in poser with V4? Oh, how about the hiding of group Transform dials. We had to have a mat pose/ hack made special to give us back those options. Now don't try to tell me Daz didn't know that would happen and didn't plan those options are available with DS. Now if you don't do much character creation, this would not be notice as with the dial limits. I'm not even going to get into some of the crazy magnet effects that I have discovered.

I'm not saying both companies are going out of thier way to make it hard on the users. There are just those little things that keep adding up to widen the gap. I for one would like to see more integration by both.

*"It seems like DAZ went pretty far out of their way to accommodate EF, e.g. giving you 9 magnetize clothing sets for use with Poser when they aren't necessary in D|S."

*Now that is just one set with the figurenames changed to work with more than one V4 in a seen, kind of like the crosstalk mats we used with P4.Yes they did need to include that, could you imagine the loss of sales over that one. I don't think Daz crazy enough to cut thier throats Besides there IS one for DS. The top one to be exact.

You can feel the gap reading the forums. That is why I posted this here and not at the other sites. This is more neutral ground.

This is just my opinion and may not reflect the opinions of the chosen few.

Edit to say I agree, I don't want to see them as one big company, just a little more cooperation.

I had thought the hidden scale and transform parameter dials applied in both Poser and D|S?  It has been some time since I bothered to use D|S because honestly it lacks dynamic clothing, that's the biggest reason, but I think the hidden dials bit is true in both applications.  I am familiar with the method to un-hide them and I don't think that's really a big deal. 

I guess I am too noob to really get what you're saying, the only real compatibility problem between V4 and P7 that I've seen is the Use Binary Morph Targets bug, and imo that is solely EF's fault, it's pretty clear they don't parse files for proper format as they are read or written.

DS can unhide them. Poser can't without the hack. But that was just as an example. Not a big deal unless you wanted to do some figure manipulation and didn't know how to do it. The Use Binary Morphs has always been a problem, not just V4 but for many other problems, which makes for a good example on the ef side.

All I was asking, if anyone else have noticed the rift between the two companies getting bigger. Mind I have watched for about 5 years. So I can understand why newer users may not have noticed.

I think SoCalRoberta made a good valid point.
"I think both companies are headed toward the same goal, a full service site (for lack of a better phrase), but coming at it from different sides. DAZ is going from content to program and EF from program to content."

I don't know if the companies are aiming to create some kind of rift, but they are certainly no longer the buddies they were back when Daz was Zygote.

I'm not a fan of D/S in the least.  Maybe its because I've spent the last five years of my life using Poser.  I do like that D/S makes it easy to use content in Bryce, but with Transposer or the Pro version, you can easily import your Poser scene into Carrara.

I guess the real answer will be apparent if their next version of Carrara supporst Poser or if it changes over to D/S.

In anycase, it is funny, though, because I see a lot of D/S vs Poser talk in various other forums.  If the companies are not trying to create a rift, the customers certainly are.

Oh, and Say what we will about the E-F Characters, but you have to admit the faces on the likes of Kelvin, Koji and Miki are amazing.  V4 will only approach that when a third party vendor creates the morphs.  And, they'll probably be sold here and Renderosity!

I will admit that V4 really did give me a bad vibe, though.  Not all is right with our friends at Daz.  I can't place my finger on it, but it smacks of ideology more then competition.

I think V4 looks too anime-ish.  She's not human enough compared to V3.  But The Girl was popular, so why not V4 now?  She does have better rigging if you're into that.

Poser has yet to include basic figures that are attractive looking.  But Poser did start out as a tracing tool for painters.

Quote - Oh, and Say what we will about the E-F Characters, but you have to admit the faces on the likes of Kelvin, Koji and Miki are amazing.  V4 will only approach that when a third party vendor creates the morphs.  And, they'll probably be sold here and Renderosity!

I cannot agree with that - opinions certainly vary, but I'm pretty happy with my own results with V4.  Sydney on the other hand looks like Sydney pretty much whatever you do, meaning she's useless for my purposes.

Quote - I think V4 looks too anime-ish.  She's not human enough compared to V3. 

I definitely cannot agree with that - V3 is about 6'1" proportionally, and is abnormally leggy.  V4 is still too tall, but it's easier to get her in a human norm range imo.

Quote - I think V4 looks too anime-ish.  She's not human enough compared to V3.  But The Girl was popular, so why not V4 now?  She does have better rigging if you're into that.

Poser has yet to include basic figures that are attractive looking.  But Poser did start out as a tracing tool for painters.

You know...That's exactly the same thing I was thinking when I saw V4. She is cute and all that but...It's allmost like like she is a hybrid between Aiko and V3. Cute but sorta toony.. So I spent about 100$ on Miki a couple of days a go. Sure Miki probably doesn't bend as nicely as V4, but she does have a nice look. Dare I say more realistic? ;)  Allso  Sydney and Simon look pretty damn good to me.

Peelo,

I just browsed both yours and pjz99's galleries and find your figures more human looking and properly posed (not mangled).  I'm afraid of what Victoria 5 might look like.  There's already a Sims 2 as far as I know.

Are we looking at the same gallery?
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=352476

Peelo is a tremendously polished and skilled artist, and I'm a noob - but - what?? 

Quote -

Are we looking at the same gallery?
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=352476

Peelo is a tremendously polished and skilled artist, and I'm a noob - but - what?? 

LOL! :D That's kinda funny (really). Yeah I'm not big on realism. (And you're not a noob) , But the point I was trying to make...burb too drunk. ..ahem V4 is plenty cute but I sort of have plenty of cute figures in my library allready, so I passed. I mean I have A3 and Himeko and SP3, so I didn't have much use for V4. (Am I repeating myself? Feels like I am. If so Im sorry). I postwork quite a lot so bending isn't an issue really. Oooh..Whadda ya know another beer? For me?  Sure... I'm sorry.. I'll let the smart people talk now. I'll just shut up. I promise.

I'm not really polished. Polished happens on saturdays with the hangover.

I'm on my third Ben and Jerry's.

Quote - I'm not really polished. Polished happens on saturdays with the hangover.

No, honestly, you're brilliant and have tremendous craft.  I hope to be as good as you someday in the distant future.

I have to agree with beryld here on this, I've been around since Poser5 came in and from that point it became clear that DAZ had no interest in catering for P5, they even said so in their official blurb on their products and on on their site, if you asked for support on their products and were using P5 you got a stock answer; "we don't support P5"   I remember it well!

That said, I think  what I'm seeing now is a certain back tracking from DAZ on Poser support, they certainly support P6 but as to P7 support, the verdict is still out on that one!

Oh! and for the record, I'm not a DAZ hater like some around this site, but there is competition and while not a bad thing in general I do agree that they seem to be drifting apart.
Just my opinion!

I don't hate either side, I use Poser & sometimes I'll fire up D|S but I do see a time coming when Daz figures will no longer be usable in Poser & EF better get their act together pretty sharpish.

Well I have to disagree about the statements that DAZ has no interest in Poser. Yes, of course they want their own identity but they are fully aware that a great deal of their business comes from Poser users. Now lets look at what V4 items DAZ have released specifically for Poser over the last few weeks...V4XprssnMagic, Summer Fashion, and lets not forget that V4 and all that has been released is fully compatible within Poser....inlcuding (as already mentioned) the clothing magnets.
Hell, they even have different installers for the different programs for some of their items within their store.

So as I say, yes they will create space between themselves, but only because they have there own identity. Neither could survive without the other...

Cheers

Quote - Well I have to disagree about the statements that DAZ has no interest in Poser. Yes, of course they want their own identity but they are fully aware that a great deal of their business comes from Poser users. Now lets look at what V4 items DAZ have released specifically for Poser over the last few weeks...V4XprssnMagic, Summer Fashion, and lets not forget that V4 and all that has been released is fully compatible within Poser....inlcuding (as already mentioned) the clothing magnets.
Hell, they even have different installers for the different programs for some of their items within their store.

So as I say, yes they will create space between themselves, but only because they have there own identity. Neither could survive without the other...

Cheers

When you consider that 99% of the newest items were created by Brokers & not employees you can see that the Poser support isn't exactly what it used to be on the Daz side & so it should be now that they have their own software that is, when you get right down to it, in direct competition with Poser.

If someone from Daz came into this thread & denied point blank that they were planning to move away from Poser eventually & stop supporting it altogether I'd sadly have to call them liars.

Quote - When you consider that 99% of the newest items were created by Brokers & not employees you can see that the Poser support isn't exactly what it used to be on the Daz side & so it should be now that they have their own software that is, when you get right down to it, in direct competition with Poser.

If someone from Daz came into this thread & denied point blank that they were planning to move away from Poser eventually & stop supporting it altogether I'd sadly have to call them liars.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the distinction. They are providing products and it doesn't matter who creates them...they still have to go through the same quality control process. Brokers are a good way of getting products at a fair price and the company only having to pay the overheads that they need to.

People will only see what they need to see, and I'll think you find many companies in the same field depend highly on brokered products.

Agreed - D/S is in competition with Poser, but I'll go back to my original comment that DAZ also realise they can't survive without Poser users...cash is king and the only time when DAZ will make D/S only specific models is when Poser users will see that D/S is a better application.

Just for the record - I'm a Poser user and not a D/S user, but I have no issues (and can see no issues) with the content provided by DAZ. In fact, what I will say is that DAZ have pushed Poser content to a much higher level over the last 6 yrs or so, and they still set the standard that all others are judged.

When DAZ starts charging money for D|S (and I think they eventually will, but not yet) then they'll be directly competing with Poser.  Right now, they are simply not in the same ballpark.  D|S is a great bargain at $0, but I paid full price for Poser 6 and have never regretted it - I wouldn't pay half as much for D|S in its current form.

Quote - When DAZ starts charging money for D|S (and I think they eventually will, but not yet) then they'll be directly competing with Poser.  Right now, they are simply not in the same ballpark.  D|S is a great bargain at $0, but I paid full price for Poser 6 and have never regretted it - I wouldn't pay half as much for D|S in its current form.

Sure, the base D|S is free, but if you want to come close to the functionality of Poser with it, the total cost of the plugins comes fairly close in price to Poser (not counting the FBX plugin, they're $170 together, and there still isn't Dynamic anything).

It seems to me that Daz is still having to support Poser, because Poser users still comprise a large portion of their buyers, but they're not trying to remain up-to-date on the features of the current version of Poser.

It wasn't until after P6 was released that they added P5 support, and now that P7 is out (almost 2 years after P6) they finally add P6 support, something which could have, and should have, been done long ago. However, I imagine Daz would really, really prefer it if people switched over to D|S whole cloth, and they didn't have to support Poser, but I don't think that's a result of any dislike of ef and Poser beyond lost sales.

Is there a gap? Most likely, but it's going to take both companies to mend it (ef allowing Mill figure Face Room support, Daz releasing stuff for the Poser figures, etc).

Cheers: I have to take some exception to what you say [politely of course].

*"Agreed - D/S is in competition with Poser, but I'll go back to my original comment that DAZ also realise they can't survive without Poser users...cash is king and the only time when DAZ will make D/S only specific models is when Poser users will see that D/S is a better application."

*Your member info states you've been around here a long time so I really don't understand how you can't remember when P5 came out that DAZ wanted nothing to do with it, period!!
They said so on their own site more than once and only back tracked when they realized that it was starting to cost them in lost sales, IMO the mentality still exists there!!

But Daz is still at the mercy of Poser.  modus0 quite plainly makes the point for me.  Every time a new version of Poser is released with new features, Daz will need to add that support into D|S at some point to maintain compatilbility with Poser content and scenes.  There is no way around that without completely breaking off from Poser content support and restricting to D|S-only content support.

I face the exact same situation with my plugin.  And the reason that D|S is progressing so slowly (it has been over two-and-a-half years since the initial beta release!) is that neither CL nor EF are divulging anything about the internals of Poser and many of the methods that Poser uses are extremely proprietary.  Daz is doing what I'm doing - reverse engineering the algorithms as best as possible from examination of the file format and experimentation on the content in Poser to disclose information on how it works.  Believe me, I've scoured the repositories of papers (ACM/IEEE).  The developers probably used bits and pieces in some places, but a good deal of the code looks to be developed on the fly using their own solutions.  For instance, there is no public (or semi-private even) information on doing deformations using a tri-axial weighting system, conforming figures to other figures, point at, Poser magnets, most of the other deformations (bulge, curve, taper).  These are all anomalous to 'standard practices' used by 99.999% of the 3D software industry.

Your member info states you've been around here a long time so I really don't understand how you can't remember when P5 came out that DAZ wanted nothing to do with it, period!!

In my opinion, it is a BAD business decision to create a company that depends solely on the existence of another. Before the release of Poser 5, there was a lot of speculation as to whether or not P5 would survive the transition to the new owners. DAZ had to do something to protect their interests in case Poser didn't survive, so they started developing DAZ Studio.  And, at that point, the "lowest common denominator" was Poser 4. Hence, the reason that DAZ initially requested Poser 4 compatibility.

Now, as we look to the future, it makes sense for both companies to develop their products to stand on their own merits.  DAZ Studio has to mature and add features that Poser users will be interested in.  On the other hand, eFrontier's figures have to mature to meet the demands of those who are accustomed to using DAZ figures.

In my opinion, it's not as much a feud as it is good, practical business sense. I have no problem standing on the fence and using products by both sides because I am a happy customer of both companies.

These companies are obviously at war . . . and who gets hurt? Well, we do . . . and they do too.

Why not work together to make this a better environemnt in which for all of us and make this a hot hobby. If all of this stuff worked togheter . . . wouldn't more people buy it? Wouldn't there be enough profits for all?

I use Poser and won't be buying V4 or any of the textures, clothes or other things that go with her because of what I heard. . . that DAZ locked certain aspects of the character in Poser. Who loses out on this? Everyone. Maybe I am just oe person . . . but there are others like me I am sure.

Why not work togehter to grow the market? I think who ever is making these decions is incredibly stupid. They are thinking in terms of things in an old buisness climate. The world has changed. . . and the world economy is changing . . . the way to make money now is to build alliances and reach across boundaries. . . not create them.

The path to prosperity is through cooperation.

OK, everyone want's Daz to support Poser......how about as a "second-class" D|S user I turn this around and want EF to put out Studio supported products, hm?
Don't see that happening and probably no one will care...after all it's all about making Poser users happy....
(If I "sound" bitchy, I am...just woke up.....)

They are at war only in the sense that they are both trying to survive on their own.

Let us also keep in mind that Poser 7 and V4 have only been out for a relatively short time. Neither side has the opportunity to develop for the other's products until they are final and released.

We have a different way of looking at things in this community than users of other software products. For example, I don't think users of Cinema 4D expect 3D Studio Max to support their files 100%, so modification is expected. Photoshop users can't use all of their features in Painter.

The problem lies in that so many of us are used to "plug and play" art. With the differences in DAZ Studio and Poser, content developers can only try their best at making their content compatible with both products. The only way to make them completely compatible with both is to release two seperate versions.

Then again, you have multiple versions of Poser (P5, P6, and P7). Each of them has different features as well, even minor differences in the material room.

We have to be patient ... each company has to go back to the drawing board to examine the differences in the latest and greatest version of the other, to make changes to accomodate. That takes time.

Quote -
I face the exact same situation with my plugin.  And the reason that D|S is progressing so slowly (it has been over two-and-a-half years since the initial beta release!) is that neither CL nor EF are divulging anything about the internals of Poser and many of the methods that Poser uses are extremely proprietary.  Daz is doing what I'm doing - reverse engineering the algorithms as best as possible from examination of the file format and experimentation on the content in Poser to disclose information on how it works..

Isn't reverse engineering illegal or am I getting mixed up? I'm sure there's a clause about that in most installation EULA's.......

There is a good reason (for now): EF owns Poser and its format.  Daz is in no position to demand anything.  This may change in the future (say, D|S 2.0 or 3.0) if it becomes a real competitor.  Then it may be a matter of survival for EF (or whoever owns Poser by that time) to make the concession.

On a related note, it would actually be more difficult for Poser to support D|S formatted content.  The reason is that unlike Poser's open text file format, D|S uses an all binary format (read: closed).  So the only way for this to happen would be for Daz to hand over their closed format information to EF (e.g.) - probably with a licensing contract and fee attached.  Not just a simple matter of EF deciding to start supporting D|S formatted content - a little more complicated. :)

Quote - Isn't reverse engineering illegal or am I getting mixed up? I'm sure there's a clause about that in most installation EULA's.......

The file format is open text format.  They can't prevent you from reading and understanding it. :)

Reverse engineering the code is illegal (taking a decompiler or such to it).  Noticing how it works and considering how the algorithms are constructed to make it work the way it does is not illegal.  If this were the case, Daz and EF would be in court don't you think?

"On a related note, it would actually be more difficult for Poser to support D|S formatted content.  The reason is that unlike Poser's open text file format, D|S uses an all binary format (read: closed).  So the only way for this to happen would be for Daz to hand over their closed format information to EF (e.g.) - probably with a licensing contract and fee attached.  Not just a simple matter of EF deciding to start supporting D|S formatted content - a little more complicated. :)"

Thanks for letting me (and other D|S users) know kuroyume. :)
I just get so sick of people whining about "When is Daz going to support blah blah blah???" and then I get to feeling like second class in the 3D world.....and then I get cranky.

Quote - OK, everyone want's Daz to support Poser......how about as a "second-class" D|S user I turn this around and want EF to put out Studio supported products, hm?
Don't see that happening and probably no one will care...after all it's all about making Poser users happy....
(If I "sound" bitchy, I am...just woke up.....)

I can't see that ever happening & anyway who says that just because you don't use poser it makes you "second class"?

Because that's how I feel Lucifer. It's the impression I get from Poser users (not all btw)....snobbish if you will.

Quote - ...I use Poser and won't be buying V4 or any of the textures, clothes or other things that go with her because of what I heard. . . that DAZ locked certain aspects of the character in Poser. ...

Conspiracy theories aside - Daz appears to have made an effort to hide dials that are just normally not used.  I give them props for that.  In other words, as far as I can tell, there was not malicious intent or alterior motive behind this, they were simply trying to clean up the interface to make the figure more 'user-friendly'.

Now, the fact that 'some' of those dials might have indeed been useful to some people, in some particular situations can be seen as an unfortunate side-effect, but that doesn't mean that Daz was intentionally trying to cripple anyone's creativity or functionality in a competitor's program.  I haven't used D|S in a while, but it sounds like you can somehow un-hide hidden dials without editing the .cr2 file (is there a "un--hide hidden dials" menu or something? :).  There was a pose file to un-hide them in Poser the day (or day after) V4's release, so the issue is moot.

The point is, if that's the only reason you're not buying V4, then you can rest assured that it wasn't some evil plan (where do people come up with these things? :) ).  V4 works fine in Poser.

Quote - Because that's how I feel Lucifer. It's the impression I get from Poser users (not all btw)....snobbish if you will.

Well I don't care what program you use, I still love you ;)

These hidden dials I keep hearing about are they hidden totally or just tucked away out of sight until needed?

It's things like scaling or translation dials on finger joints and such.  In some cases, they provided dials on the BODY to do actions more easily, in some cases the dials just don't make sense in normal operation, etc.

For example, the XYZ scaling dials on the head are hidden, but there's a "Scale Head" dial on the BODY (which may also do some things on the neck, to match).  But if you just wanted to scale the head on the Z axis, you'd have to get those dials un-hidden.

kimber89 wrote: *"Because that's how I feel Lucifer. It's the impression I get from Poser users (not all btw)....snobbish if you will."

*I would guess that most poser users have tried DS at one time or another and decided what they like better, be it DS or Poser. 

I know for myself, it's that, "in your face, DS is the latest and greatest thing to ever happen and it doesn't matter what your reasons are for using Poser, you should be using DS." With the, it's free BS and you have direct import to Bryce. But it's not free, only the base, as stated earlier it costs more than P7 if you were smart enough to get P5 when it was offered and not listen to all the DS users telling everyone to not waist thier time getting it. These could be some of the reasons why you may get the impression of snobbish poser users, but don't confuse snobbish with annoyance. Though there are purists in all software users.

Now, the Bryce thing. Daz threw a wrench at Poser users on that one. Daz didn't do any favours to Poser users on that one. Yes I bought Bryce 6 for $6, couldn't pass that deal up and it's sitting on a disk somewhere. Don't need have a use for it, I use Carrara5pro that doesn't work with P7 and Vue6I that uses poser to it's fullest, including shaders.

I don't hate either company, I prefer Poser over DS. I prefer Daz figures over EF's. When Daz says something, they stick to it,. EF/CP can't be trusted. Look at the Koji fiasco. Buy Koji now and get the face room later, never happened. More recently, the $10 Coupon that was part of the pre-order of P7. CP decided tuoy could only use it on a little bit of crap they say you can. Yet the Coupon and the advertising of the coupon state that it can be used on any purchase.

No, I don't hate them and I spend my money at both companies, only with wiser eyes now.

Quote - I have to agree with beryld here on this, I've been around since Poser5 came in and from that point it became clear that DAZ had no interest in catering for P5, they even said so in their official blurb on their products and on on their site, if you asked for support on their products and were using P5 you got a stock answer; "we don't support P5"   I remember it well!

Hi Fixer - that situation was a bit more complicated - Curious Labs wouldn't support Daz Figures in the Face Room  and were looking for some vast amount of money for the P5 SDK , so Daz only supported P4 until a few years ago. I'm not sure if they ever paid that SDK fee in the end or what, but someone mentioned they got hold of the SDK as part of their purchase of Carrara and Transposer (Transposer required that same very expensive SDK to work apparently).

It's similar to what's described here but in reverse:
*"The reason is that unlike Poser's open text file format, D|S uses an all binary format (read: closed).  So the only way for this to happen would be for Daz to hand over their closed format information to EF (e.g.) - probably with a licensing contract and fee attached.  Not just a simple matter of EF deciding to start supporting D|S formatted content - a little more complicated. :)"

*Daz has said that the Daz|Studio Base program will always remain free, but Plug-ins will cost money. So you buy the Animation Plug-in if you want that, or the Dynamic Cloth(Optitex) plug-in if you want that. Mimic would be an example I guess.

I see both camps as setting themselves to be independant of each other if need be. They were quite symbiotic for a while I think, but I reckon that will be less so in time. I fully expect a thrid player to enter the field someyime in the next 5 years too - don't know where from but I have a feeling it will happen (Max/Maya Figure Fun Studio?).

Cheers

...I just checked, it's actually "HeadSize" on the BODY.  Along with:

ChestSize
HandsSize
PalmsSize
LegsLength
FeetSize
etc.

...the translation XYZ dials are also missing on the head (and probably every other joint).  Aside from the Hip and Body, you shouldn't ever need to use those dials, so they hid them.  Again, ~shrug~ no big deal - it's a "Feature", not a crippling.

I don't recall anyone say they didn't buy V4, or didn't buy V4 because of the hidden dials. Explaining it once again, it was used as a small example. No need to rag on something that was not intended as a big deal. I use the script to unhide the dials, that is not the focal point of this thread.

Quote - Cheers: I have to take some exception to what you say [politely of course].

*"Agreed - D/S is in competition with Poser, but I'll go back to my original comment that DAZ also realise they can't survive without Poser users...cash is king and the only time when DAZ will make D/S only specific models is when Poser users will see that D/S is a better application."

*Your member info states you've been around here a long time so I really don't understand how you can't remember when P5 came out that DAZ wanted nothing to do with it, period!!
They said so on their own site more than once and only back tracked when they realized that it was starting to cost them in lost sales, IMO the mentality still exists there!!

Polite exception, excepted ;-)

I vaguely remember, but Poser isn't my prime application and I moved from version 3 to 4 then onto 6 and probably won't upgrade to 7 as for what I use Poser for, any of the extra features aren't a great seller for me.
Actually, I think your quote directly confirms what I was saying.

Good for DAZ if there ambition is to move away from Poser, because direct competition usually benefits the consumer...but, I think they have some pretty wise heads on their shoulders and I think they realise that before they can do that totally, they have to produce a D/S the majority of Poser users want to use...and if or when that time comes we consumers won't care anyway because we will prefer to use D/S.

There is one other thing to add to this...people such as Vue or C4D users who use Poser basically as a figure library. You may be surprised how much of DAZ custom is from them users. Where Vue is concerned Carrara and Bryce are DAZ owned competition. Ok, Carrrara is probably just different enough to not be considered direct competition and Bryce is far too underdeveloped and ageing from previous miss-management...but it is all complex competition that DAZ have to consider when they think of their customer base.

Quote - I don't recall anyone say they didn't buy V4, or didn't buy V4 because of the hidden dials.

As I quoted above, seatletim did, on the previous page, second one up from the bottom.  He said he wasn't planning to buy her because of what he'd heard other say about that subject.  I wanted to provide an alternate view.

Quote - Explaining it once again, it was used as a small example. No need to rag on something that was not intended as a big deal. I use the script to unhide the dials, that is not the focal point of this thread.

They did 'limit' joint rotations - presumably, to what they probably considerede 'reasonable', though others may differ (easily fixable inside Poser anyway) and they also hid some normally unused dials. My only point was that neither of these seem to me to be indicative of a growing gap between the companies, as you suggested. So in my mind, they seemed out of place in the list, relative to the topic at hand.

Quote - > Quote - Because that's how I feel Lucifer. It's the impression I get from Poser users (not all btw)....snobbish if you will.

Well I don't care what program you use, I still love you ;)

 
Awwww, I feel better now...all mushy-gushy inside :lol:

beryld,  you're right about "purists" and thanks. :)

Good for DAZ if there ambition is to move away from Poser, because direct competition usually benefits the consumer...but, I think they have some pretty wise heads on their shoulders and I think they realise that before they can do that totally, they have to produce a D/S the majority of Poser users want to use...and if or when that time comes we consumers won't care anyway because we will prefer to use D/S.

Yes, and no ...

I agree that competition usually benefits the consumer. But there is one thing that has to happen in order to advance use of Poser and DAZ Studio. The rigging.

Right now, both products are working around the rigging limitations of older versions of Poser. Indeed, there is a wealth of content out there that they have to consider.

But there is only so much you can do with the current rigging method, and in order to provide more realism in posing and animation, and by extension all of the clothing, you have to say goodbye to the old Poser rigging methods at some point. And this will make a lot of folks unhappy.

That is where we will see the real divide occur. More than likely, each side will create rigging alternatives in the way that will best be handled by their software. While the GEOMETRY can be the same for each figure, and for the clothing, developers will have to rig once for Poser and again for DAZ Studio, making the division more prominent than it already is.

It's a natural progression ... if there is a way to continue the simbiotic relationship between DAZ and Poser, I'm sure it will be welcome by all of us. But I'm not sure that the solution will be a real easy one. Most definitely we won't see new figure releases for both packages at the same time once they use different rigging.

Actually, in thinking more about this, the use of magnets for posing tweaks (such as are used in V4 and the G2 figures) may be an interim step toward a "universal" type rigging that would work in both packages. Maybe there is hope. 8-)

Spanki, I missed that, still tryng to wakeup, I need more coffee. I spent all night modeling. You know when you in the zone and don't want to stop.

I agree with that assessment overall, Deecey.  But my take is that it will sort of be like P4/PP materials.  New rigging systems might be implemented (differently for Poser and D|S perhaps) but the old systems will still be supported - that is a given unless they both want to alienate a large portion of their user-base.

So, it would seem that the analog is that just like vendors initially stayed away from shader nodes and more and more vendors then started to support shader nodes but some either continue to supply P4 alternatives or have not supported shader nodes for some time (and maybe won't),  a new rigging system doesn't necessarily mean that all of a sudden all vendors will immediately support it (or them) or need to do so. - aside: does that win for longest sentence in history :) -

My point is that new rigging systems don't void the current one and there is the bridge between the widening gap - for a long while anyway.  As with all such things, you will sacrifice new features for compatibility and exchange.