hello, I would like to ask something about creating comics/mangas in Poser, using the special options of the program.
(my technical english and grammar is really not the best, so please excuse all those mistakes and errors I make).
as a big fan of SF- animes like Ghost in the Shell or Appleseat (but the wonderful Ghibli-movies too), I ask myself (as an poser newbie): could I create such manga-pictures with Poser?
I know, that there is the cartoon shader and the outline render-thing, but the results are not what I have in mind.

why are there no 2D-figures? or better: 2D-figures, that are true 3D-models?
I don't know, wheather you understand me or not.
so please let me explain: I think about for a figure like M3, V4, G2 and so on, that is not made as an realistic picture of a human.
but it is so close to a comic-figure as close as possible!
(no skin texture for example, but textured for use in a manga. and with clothing and so on, and everything should be like as always in Poser, conforming clothing, transformation and so on.)
still a 3D- modell, with all the usability of michael or other figures.

in my imagination, I create first a 3D-backround with Poser. a scene as always. and then a 2D-comic figure, to place it in there. (just like in some scenes in Ghost in the Shell 2 - Innocence, for example, where 2D and 3D is combined).
do you understand my thoughts - a 2D-figure in 3D?

is there such an figure/3D-coic-model (for Poser) anywhere in the shops? and if not: why not? is it not possible to build such models? or is there no market to sell it?

kind regards

holger

(PS: I know programs like MangaStudio/AnimeStudio. but you must have the abuility to draw something like a figure to create a scene, as far as I knwo. my question is only meant for Poser.)

There is the Z scaling method. There are scripts that help to do that. Can't remember who did them but a search for Toon and Z scalling should give some answers.

My understanding is that both Manga studio and AnimeStudio pro versions have Object import. so it can be done in them. I use Shade's toon renderer, so much better than the  Poser or DS toon renders. I had hoped they would have added the Shade toon render to Poser 7 but they didn't

Now you must remember that 2D figures are 4 main poses. Front, 45degree, Side and Back. You would need to model and bone all these views to get what you are looking for. That is how the templates work in Anime Studio and the same in ToonBoom which I use.

It might be easier for you to use the Z scale method.

Also there are post production ways too. Such as with PS,PSP,Painter, Gimp. There is a thread at Daz common bout a product or 2 that can do this as PS filters. Now I'm tring to remember. I think there are some very popular PS actions in the RMP. Might need to look in the 2D sections.

What you want is called z-toon by Ockham, it's in freestuff here on the site, turns a 3d scene into a 2d scene :D www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/index.php It's at the bottom of page 1 of his freestuff.

The Aiko figure from DAZ is definitely a manga-type figure. In her default shape she's certainly not a realistic human.

It would be truly interesting to have figures built for 2D, and probably
not too hard.

Would need to set up separate body parts for front, side, and
back views ... perhaps by using Z-flatten and then exporting the OBJ
from each 90-degree increment.

After that, it would need some kind of intelligent geometry-switching
trick to select the appropriate version of each body part for the current view.

Didn't Ajax do something with Geometry switching a while back that would work for this?

The Z-toon method was my idea and there is a tutorial in Renderosity's tutorial section that explains how it works. Ockham made a script that makes it much faster to set up your scene (I don't know anything about scripting so I had to flatten each object manually).  :)

I have constantly been trying to achieve a 2D drawn look in 3D, but with limited success. Accurate toon shading is practically impossible in 3D, even the plugins for Carrara can't match what you can do by hand. It seems like you can get the best results by rendering a fairly "flat" 3D figure with as little shading as possible and no toon outlining, and then shading and inking in Photoshop, Painter, or Manga Studio.  As far as which figures to use, Aiko (at DAZ), BelBel for Aiko (at DAZ), Anime Doll (custom figure, available here at Renderosity), and Aiko Toon (Aiko-based figure, available at DAZ) are the best in my opinion.

Hope that's of some use.  ;)

SnowS

Sorry SnowS I knew someone else had a big hand in it but I'm getting old & my memory isn't what it used to be.

just to agree with sultan there. for 10 years now, I've viewed attempts to use poser to create commercially acceptable images that adhere to anime/manga conventions. my conclusion: a great deal of post work is needed, by an human artist who can draw, independent of poser. P7 is a step in the right direction, but it's still just an aid to a skilled artist IMVHO.

I woud like to say "thank you very much"!
It is always absolutely amazing for me to see, how the people in the Poser community aid one another. Always, and always without self interest.
If I ever must spend the rest of my life in any almshouse/home for aged, I hope, there are some old Poserfreaks around and we sit together and talk about Poser 45.1!

There is a lot stuff to think about it for me in your answers.
As far as I could understand, there are 3 ways to get toon-results with Poser:

1. create it normally in 3D and postwork it in third programms like PS. therefore are made some actions, availiable here, like toon action.
2. create it in Poser and use the Z-scaling method
3. create it in Poser and import the result in Manga studio (if installed).

@beryld:
you said:
"I use Shade's toon renderer, so much better than the  Poser or DS toon renders"
I found at CP the item called "ART MATERIALS Vol.1 : Cartoon Shaders" - is this the Shade's renderer you wrote about?

hello,
if you could have a look here:
www.runtimedna.com/mod/bcs/index.php
woul you say, this could be a solution for my problem and it could be used by a greenhorn like me?
is this like a filter for photoshop, a one-click-ready thing?

holger

I think beryld means Shade the application. It's a 3D modeling/rendering app, also sold by e-frontier.

ah, thanks svdl!
but how about the " ART MATERIALS Vol.1 : Cartoon Shaders" (CP/ReRo, linked in my topic above)?
Could this be a solution for a beginner? My technical english and the less knowledge in color-management makes it hard to understand the explanation for the item. but the promo-pics look perfect!

*No Shade is a modeling/ rendering software by eF. It was thier main software, as far as I know, before they bought Poser. It has a toon render.

This is what I did real quick. I did not adjust the toon settings in shade so the quality is not up to par as I normally do. I did this to show an Idea I had.

I rendered himeko and mad a trans map I then used Posers oneside square. Now thisis a quick test but I was thinking that a person could create a outlined plane in any modeling app and uv map it to take the rendered character. You could then group and bone the plane. This could be done with all 3 or 4 figure poses and you would have a working 2D figure.

This is almost the same idea as used with AnimeStudio and ToonBoom.

ah, thanks beryld.
I see: if someone is a kind of profi in some kinds of modelling software, it is possible to use the progs together to create manga-figures.
but for me as a newbie this is not the way I could go. having problems in using Poser with simple scenes, it would be this way:
using poser plus another software: the problems are doubled. using poser plus 2 other programms, the problems are tripled. and so on... ;-)

if I could figure out,  what that ART MATERIALS Vol.1 : Cartoon Shaders is. maybe I could use this. but the price is not that way, that I could say: okay, 5 dollars blowed in the wind, not so badly...

Yes those are some shaders available. There are many products that can do it.

Look in the marketpalce in 2D>Action/Scrips. There are lots of products there that can help with what you want.

There are some figures that are especially created for comic/manga images.  For female figures, there is the Anime Doll in addition to Aiko.  She is available from Content Paradise.  Yuki Terai 2 by e frontier has also been advertised as having a "manga" look, though she doesn't seem to be as popular as either Aiko or Anime Doll.  For males, there is Hiro, who is available from DAZ.  Different artists have also adapted Aiko to produce more manga-style characters such as BelBel, ChibiBel, and others.  If you search the term "anime" at the DAZ web site or here at Renderosity, you'll find all sorts of anime hair, clothing, and so on.

I have Oliver's toon shaders and enjoy them.  You use them by applying them in the material room, which is available in Poser 5 or higher.  They can produce amazing images, but you do have to teach yourself how to use the material room in Poser, which is a little overwhelming at first, if you want to get the exact image you want.  You also have to play around quite a bit with the lighting.  However, the shaders work on any character, and you can produce the basic picture right in Poser.  You could make a superhero character by applying them to any of the realistic male or female models with capes, skin-tight bodysuits, and boots, or anime characters by applying them to the characters I mentioned above.

I hope this helps. 

dear ezuk,
thank you for your friendly words! for me, it is not the main thought to have models, that are looking manga-like like Aiko. they could look like real humans, but they should appear in 2D. and so I bought after reading your and other messages Oliver's package and will play a little bit with it.
I think, those shaders are the best solution for me to get comic-results within Poser.

all best wishes

holger

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1386490&member

I haven't had a chance to look at them yet, but they look very promising.

There are other 3D figures with toon-like proportions, if not a strong anime/manga look. DAZ 3D sell The Girl and Staci, and RDNA have Koshini and various related figures. People will argue about what the anime look really is, but different artists have different styles anyway. Terai Yuki from Content Paradise is very similar in shape and looks to Aiko. Aiko and Hiro have excellent morph sets from Capsces to add to the standard DAZ morphs. For me, they tip the balance.

HEllo **Ailarchendil,
great tip, many thanks. the package looks great.

Holger**

Animation master does a great job animating Anime.

jwebster's vector tutorial is the only workable method I've seen at any of these poser sites for producing commercially acceptable comic book line-art. I used to do it the same way when I was still doing porno toons (excepting I used the vector tools in photoshop).

yes, thanx again for the hint.
jwebsters tutorial is abolutely great!

for myself, I only have Xara. but my skills are littel, so I cannot rework the second tutorial.
but only within poser, the results are already good.

@Miss Nancy: porno toons? are you from japan?

Miss Nancy, can you forward the link to jwebster's vector tutorial? Thanks.

SnowS

edit: never mind, I found it on his site from the link above. Thanks very much.

no, holger, not from japan, from scandal valley. :lol: I had a pal, "ben def" (from belgium) back in the 90s. he used xara to do his porno toons, so I don't see any problems there.