Hi,

Sorry in advance for what must seem like an obvious question, but as an experienced traditional artist not-yet-coverted to the realm of pixels, I don't want to waste any more money on the "wrong" software. I am obviously prepared for "try the demo" type answers, but, alas, it would take just as long to learn the demo as...well, for a newbie to laern the whole software (you get the point.)

Obviously I've got PS/IL/Painter, etc, for 2D stuff. I bought Bryce and Carrara just because I saw those first and then I came to this forum and whoops - there's a proverbial s**tload of other software that might do as much, and might do it better.

Here's my question(s), obviously exposing my lack of knowledge or where to get it (other than here, natch!)

• What the he*ll is the difference in products such as Cinema 4d, Lightwave, Maya, 3DS, and the like?
  (And how would be a good way to tell what those things that another piece of software does that yours doesn't...but hey, the gallery looks great so it MUST be better, no? I mean, VUE just blew me away, too...does IT do what I already have in Carrara 5)?

• (Stupid question #2) - Why does something so powerful as 3DS need something "extra" like Vray - can't it do it all in itself?

I don't mean to obviously take up so much time on something so basic, so if anyone knows of a "newbie" forum or just plain 'ol set of links to "how software compares - what it does, etc" then I'd consider you first for any extra karma points I have to give away...assuming I do have any for myself, first!  :)

Thank you all again, and have a very good day,

• Paul

While trying out a demo is the best way to find out if a program works for you and what you may need, you can also compare the product feature lists on the various product sites. Seems pretty straight forward to be honest.  However, if you still need someone to tell you, you can always pick up a copy of 3D World Magazine, which has product review charts in the back of the mag listing main pros and cons their reviewers found with the applications.

Teyon put it straight forward, best way is to check the Demo and the Artist Sites around for Features on each product.
There is no answer to your first question that will answer it properly, as most software has the basics, and then each one has its own way of modeling, and some extras. C4D, LW, Maya, 3DS are modelers, while Vue is NOT a modeler, more of a Render Program. Dont get me wrong, U can model in it, just not like the other software.
Dont know about Q2.
But as the forum heading states, no one person can tell you which one is better. U just have to try each one and see how U like it. Just to try it doesnt mean U will learn the whole program. Once U get into the program it usually takes a few tries to see how comfortable you are with it. And as many others stated, if you comfortable with one program and like it, stay with it.

There reall is not right/wrong answer here, honestly. I was lookin for something like this months ago, and just stopped lookin and started tryin. Now found my fav, while many others may or may not like it, its something that I LIKE, and thats what matters.

Cornelp. Hope this helps U in some way...

I missed question 2.

Here's the thing. It'd be great if the $500 to $5000 you spend on a 3D app could do everything and do it well but the reality of life is that this won't be the case....pretty much ever. The reason plug-ins exist, wether it is for 2D or 3D is to enhance, replace or provide features that are lacking or missing in the core application. 3DStudio Max initially only provided a scanline render engine, so for raytracing, you had to look elsewhere or get a plugin. I don't know if that's still the case but that hasn't stopped plug-in designers trying to come up with a better render engine than the one found in a core application. So yes, ideally, it'd be great if Max or Maya or XSI or LightWave or Truespace or Cinema could do it all straight out of the box (and you'll find in most cases they can...just not as easy) but for the 99.8% of us who don't get to experience the ideal, these plug-ins are essential to getting the work you need done, done. The same goes for Photoshop and its ilk.

As for the rest, both Cornelp and I have given the only unbiased answer you can really get from anyone and that's to try it yourself.

I should mention, unless you're unhappy with Carrara or are taking on a job that requires you to learn a specific 3D application, there's no real need to venture away from the program  you're using. Carrara, while not standard in its interface/approach when last I looked, was still a competent modeling, rendering and animation software. While its workflow and interface were not to my liking, there are hundreds of folks who love it. 

There's no way for me to know how long you've spent with the program but if you haven't given it a try but you own it, before looking elsewhere, you'd be best off trying to learn to work within it. 

For everyone else looking at 3D apps...one of the worst reasons to buy a program is art you've seen other people do with it. Honestly. Just because John Smith can wrangle a polygon in Modo doesn't mean you can, the same goes for any of the other software out there. Try before you buy and do not judge a book by how pretty the pages are...read it.

Thank you for the input.

I was hoping that the wording of my question(s) wouldn't confuse them with the "which is best / what should I buy" variey, but it's hard to gauge intent by a simple form post, so I do apologize. I was (and still am :)  ) simply, as new to this industry, looking for an effective way to examine one program over another.

I guess I was feeling mentally anguished at putting some more intense efforts in Carrara just to realize down the road that something else was needed or better yet - could have done the same thing faster or more productively, so thank you both for your input and guidance.

If you don't mind me asking a more technical question dealing with plug-in...since I am only on one PC, and obviously render time can be in the "honey, let's go out to dinner" deal. Do the plug ins like Vray, etc, actually reduce render time compared to the program itself? Or is it just a factor of the PC itself?

Thanks, again, and sorry for the stupid question,

• Paul

Here are my 2 cents.

I'm a MAX and C4D user and I have some exerpience with XSI and Maya.  The basic advice of trying all the demo's is still the best thing to do.  One thing you can do is a google serach for a comaprision chart of the major 3D apps.  They all have their pluses and minuses.

For example (in my opinion) MAX is the hands down best at tweaking a poly.  It has more tools and more things you can do with it than any other application I have tried.  Max also has a massive amount of plugins you can by and lots scripts from places like ScriptSpot.  Starting with version 8 Mental Ray was included as part of the Max package.  The scan line render in Max is quite powerful but you really have to understand lighting to make really good use of it.   The animation tools in Max (Character Studio) are very powerful too, but they take alot of work  get a good grasp of.  Now Max has a steep learning curve there tools panels intimidate many users.

C4D I like it for it's interface and easy of use (at least for me).  The tools are easy to use and it's default render engine is quite good and rather fast.  It's poly tools are limited when comapred to MAX as well as it's animation tools.  I like the texture editor in C4D more than the one in Max, you get lost in the one in max real easy.

Lightwave - for me I could never get a good workflow and I havenn't used it since version 6.  I'll let someone else fill this in.

Maya - A pretty GUI to hide all of the MEL script ( that is basically what it is).  Modeling tools I found to be fair.  The animation tools are quite good, easy to use than Max (at least I think so).  The render engine is pretty good, but there are external renders that are better.

For landscapes - I'd use Vue over Bryce.  I find Bryce clunky in comparision.  It's mainly work flow issues for me.  I also think the render engine in Vue is better.  The other plus with Vue is xStream.  This lets me use my Vue objects directly in Max and C4D.  It's a really nice feature if you want to pay the cash.

Rendering.  Well your assumption is not correct.  The more powerful the render engine, the more powerful the features, and the more realistic render it can make - the LONGER it takes.  The ONLY thing you can do is add more CPU power and more RAM at it.   As an example my render system is a Dual AMD Opteron with 8 gigabytes of RAM.  This is just for rendering nothing else.  The only way you can do better is with a big Network Render system.

Also launching a render before you go to bed or before you go out to dinner is another way to get it done.  Like I said the better the Render Engine the longer it can take.

Best of luck and if you have any more questions please ask.

A lot of factors also to consider: will the application be used for print/web, or animation work? Will you be using this for professional, or leisure/hobbiest use? What is the budget, if that is a consideration, that you have allocated for the app, or apps? 
   I think a fellow in one of the other forums hit the nail on the head when he made the analogy of comparing 3D apps to airplanes, i.e. Bryce is a "Piper Cub", not particularly fast or expensive, but it will get you from point A to point B, and you can learn to take off, fly, and land the plane in a day or two. Maya and 3DS Max are more like Boeing 767's, or the Space Shuttle; very expensive, very complex, and it might take a slew of College-level courses before you can go anywhere with them. C4D and Lightwave are up there in complexity as well, though perhaps more in the "Lear-Jet" range.
   I have seen amazing, professional quality images come from all of these apps, including Carrara, which I use myself. Several regulars in the Carrara Forum are Pro artists and they find that Pro5 meets all their needs for print work. No matter what app and amount of Plug-ins you use, just about any 3D rendered image will require some "tweaking" in an image editor for print use. Good luck in your search.

Wow.

Very helpful stuff here, all!

Good analogies, too!

A lot of the gallery pics of 3D renders are touched up with Photoshop.  So watch out.

Well from what I see you need a decent modeler and you are set. From what I know of carrera it is decent as a modeler but that is nto its strenght. It has a very good renderer so if you get a modeler you will be set. Modelign there are a nuber of schools of modelign and they all have to do with how you want to work.

Box modeling which is what I do is where you take a basic shape cut divide tweak  till it becomes a more complex shape. Wing sand Silo are good choices for that.

There is spline modeling which you bascically make outlines and add and subtract. Carrera has some decent tools for spline modeling you can download moment of inspiration for free and try out Rhino if you want to go deeper in that direction.

Patch modeling Hash does that well and you can download soem modelers like S-patch or Hama patch to see if that is for you. (it is not for me)

Poly by poly can be done in a number of programs too silo and Hex can do that.

How I work is I like a simple straightforward modeler so I use Wings I have a number of other modelers but always come back to that. I like to be able to do character stuff so I use Messiah as my rendering app because I can do rigs very fast and it has all the high end rendering options. Messiah does no modeling.

I guess we really need to knwo what kind of work you wan tto be doing. Architectural character mechanical low poly?

Quote - A lot of the gallery pics of 3D renders are touched up with Photoshop.  So watch out.

That is SOOO TRUE, but quite a few swear that its all render and NO TOUCH UPs. I dont know whats true anymore when it comes to that...

Cornelp

Dann-o,

I guess I am still trying to find my own "artistic voice" but for subject matter I tend to gravitate more toward the architectural/mechanical, not so much human/anatomical.

I am really revealing my ignorance when I state I didn't even know modeling has so many different types and then rendering is a separate quality altogether to make a program be what it is (or what it isn't, too!)

It's starting to make sense now why I'd see so many gallery pictures - here or otherwise - say "modeled in X...rendered in Y" due to the ability - or lack thereof - of the program(s) itself.

I am starting to notice, when looking at the various programs, multiple formats (w/import and exportabiity) and not sure what is useful in this regard or not. I mean, I still have Illustrator and could always do a 2D flat "model" of sorts and then export. What are the formats that are most supported and workable when working in 3D progs? For example, jpg and gif are good web formats but there are tons of others.

What are the formats to look for or "necessary" to work back and forth within the various 3D programs?

And thanks, all, for the patience and sharing of your own viewpoints and tips. I don't know of any other forums like this so feel free to laugh discouragingly and point to the beginners forum over at...(fill in the blank).

Have a super day,

• A

P.S. Oh, hey Cornelp - I used to work in the old IBM building on Yamato Rd in Boca. You near to that? I moved, though, a hop, skip, and jump close to Disney World, though, in Summer of '04. (Yup - first hurricanes in 25 years in FL! OUCH!!)

As for the format, most used format in 3D is usually OBJ Format, which most apps use, not all, but most use obj format.
Since most of the items/objects/products on here are for Poser (not all), OBJ format would be the ideal choice.
This is again my personal OPINION, and AGAIN JUST AN OPINION. For Architectual stuff, I felt Wings3D, 3DS and Cinema4D to be some of the greatest for that type of art/modeling (thou I love Teyon's work, really owesome organic modeling, wish I could do something like that, lol).

Again this is just my OPINION ONLY, and my CHOICE of Modeling for Architecture. I like to create Props/Architecture stuff, and I found those apps said above to be some of the greatest. There are others that say LW is really amazing for architecture as well, as well as Modo, which is my FAV at the moment, besides Wings3D.

So really the same answer as before, try and see. My choice of Architectual Modeling would work fine for say Wings3D, while others may say LW is their choice, thou both our modeling skills go towards Architecture. I try to keep ideas opened and can never say one app is better then another, as that would be a really bad statement.

BTW: Yes I know of the IBM Building, as I am typing this message from it, lol. I work in that building as we speak, and been working here since Winter of '97, which is a few mins from my house, lol, just love it. BTW is now called TREX, no longer IBM...

I hope you find what U lookin for. Again just give it a try to some of the apps and see how they feel for U. Most apps export in formats that can each read properly, except if you going into model posing/rigging and animation, which is a totally differnt area.

Cornelp...

Hey,

Thanks - I'll give those a try - I hope I've got a PC good enough not to have to wait two hours for a render jsut to see that I got some of the lighting/shading off.

On another note, you wouldn't by chance happen to work for Verio, would you? I worked there from '00-'01 before tech support was outsourced to Jamaica of all places. (Hey, any of you want to move to Jamaica? No? See ya'...)

Thanks again, and take care,

• A

Attached Link: http://www.moi3d.com/

There are many different ways of working. Most like to have one program that does nearly everything. Many of these programs are quite expensive but if you want a cheaper powerful program now look at XSI and Lightwave. Both I think will be the same price sice you are a Carrera user you can get a competitive upgrade for Lightwave. (about 500$) Both of these programs are used for a lot of pro work and they are not some cheap program. With Maya costing 2000 dollars and Max costing close to 4000 dollars.

If you like to have a few seperate programs then stick with Carrera for now get an additional modeler. My personal workflow is geared tword character and organic modeling so I use Wings which is quite good and free. I render in PMG Messiah which is 300$ does rigging animation lots of effects really geared twords animation and character work.  If you want to try out wings we have a wings forum here and it is pretty active.

Dann-O, U tried out that Moi3D? How different is from WIngs3D?

I wanna give it a try and see how that thing is different from Wings3D or Modo.

Cornelp

BTW: No not Verio, its a call center company. No Verio here...

So..(remember, I'm new...)...

Do the models that you create have their own "format" or is this just part of how the file itself is saved.

Using your favorite rendering program, then, you just import that file then, right? Does it come in as it's own object where you can then manipulate it in a scene or does the whole scene import?

What I mean is, when you have, say, an interior scene with 20 or so different objects, and then you want to render it in a differnt program, do you make each object individually and then arrange them in the renderer? Or do you arrange the whole scene in the modeler and then just have the renderer do nothing but, well, render it.

Another newbie, huh, Paul? Looks like those are my questions, too...but you're a little more advanced it seems.

No problem! Any answers only help at this point...thugh I am starting to think that we should be paying those answering for their time!

Take care, all, and thank you, again!

• A

I think the best program for newbies to 3D is Wings.  Its work structure forces you to think in 3 dimensions instead of 2.  It's also an easy program to learn and will introduce you to most of basics of 3D.  Plus it's free.

Moment of Inspiration is nothing like wings. It is closer to Rhino and if you like modeling with arcs and curves it is nice. I find it befuddling but I am a poly guy like to box model everything.  But many people like it and since the original poser wants to do architectural stuff and knows programs like illustrator it might be for him. (also it is free for now)

Generally I use OBJ format and import it into my renderer and arrange thigns light them and then render. Ther eare other formats but now OBJ s the most universal and useful. Most progams have a proprietary format too some are used in more than one program but generally OBJ I find id most universal. 3DS is used a lot too but has problems with high poly counts. LWO is common to a number of programs but not nearly as universal.

My workflow I model and UV map in Wings and then export. The I import them into Messiah and apply textures arrange items light set up GI rig as needed and then render. Wings also has a very nice UV mapper which makes it even better I would say getting wings is a no brainer. Free and good and a good UV mapper to boot. I do my subdivision sufacing in Messiah so I only actually make the rough shape in Wings smooth in Messiah.

Thanks, again.

I'll try out all of this. (I wouldn't have known about half these programs had I not revealed my own new-ness!)

• A

Quote - So..(remember, I'm new...)...

Do the models that you create have their own "format" or is this just part of how the file itself is saved.

Using your favorite rendering program, then, you just import that file then, right? Does it come in as it's own object where you can then manipulate it in a scene or does the whole scene import?

What I mean is, when you have, say, an interior scene with 20 or so different objects, and then you want to render it in a differnt program, do you make each object individually and then arrange them in the renderer? Or do you arrange the whole scene in the modeler and then just have the renderer do nothing but, well, render it.

It all depends. As Dann-O stated above, it matters on your personal likes and the program used.
Personally I sometimes export the whole scene from Wings3D or Modo and import it into Poser/Bryce and sometimes I export pieces of it.
For Example: 
Say I built a fantasy house prop that can be rendered as an inside Scene and an outside scene. What I do is export the house prop as one piece, then export the Roof prop as another piece. I import each one separate into Poser, THEN, save it as a Poser Object to the Library (pp2 format). THEN, I load each one of the Poser Object (both roof and house props pp2 format files) and then save it as a whole prop with the roof being a child to the house prop. This way if the house is being moved, the roof will go with it. If the person wants to render an outside render, they can just click and hide the roof. If they want an inside render, they leave the roof visible in the render. With this option, the user has 3 total props alltogether, the fantasy house prop, the roof, and then both together. More options at the end...

I believe it all depends on the scenery and the type of prop you make. You can also make say a belt type clothing for V4 that holds say 2 guns or 2 lasers or something. You DONT WANT to save the clothing prop WITH the gun holders/lasers. U save the clothing prop, THEN the guns separate. You load them separate into Poser and save them. This way the person that renders can have the clothing with and without the guns/lasers.

Just how I do it. I am more then sure there are many other ways, but this are my steps...

Cornelp. Hope this answers your question...

Im not sure that everyone here sticks to just one modeling program, like i do game modification's so i use 3dsmax for my low poly models, and making uvmaps, then i put it all in modo for beefing it into a high poly model for normal maps, and texture mapping ... but like everyone said here, id have to say the 30 day demo's are the best way to go to find what you need.

Here is my penny of info on this.
You may also want to check out the availability of training materials on the product you choose.  I have noticed tons of training videos, books, etc. for products like 3ds max.  I purchased Cinema 4D R10 a few months back because I wanted to do more than just assemble prebuilt primatives like those in Vue.  But before I bought Cinema 4D I was also thinking of 3ds Max.  I only chose Cinema 4D because the demo seemed easy in creating things with primatives and some splines.  I did not know much and so that is what I played with in the demo.  Who the hell new to 3d is going to know the most important things to check out in a demo?  I checked out the primatives because that is what I played with when I worked with Vue.  I thought  Cinema 4D had all I needed and it would be more straight forward than 3D Max.

After a few months it turned out to be pretty good in making man made things like machines, weapons, equipment, buildings, etc.  When I was done playing with that, I then wanted to explore making non man made things like humans, animals, creatures, etc.   However, in my opinion, it would appear that C4D is not strong in modeling these kinds of things, although it can be done.  

I have found very few training materials on how it is done with C4D compared to other larger products like 3D max.  If I had to do it all over again I think I would have preferred to of bought 3D Max and bite the bullet on the learning curve.  This I say because either way, your going to have to do a lot of reading, experimenting, etc. even with C4D.  C4D is easy?  Puft!  I have a few hundred hours into that product and there is still a lot to it.  So might as well of jumped into Max I think.  

At least if i had chosen 3D Max, I would of had a product that would of been equipped to fully to handle not just man made structures (buildings, tools, weapons, etc.)  but woud have also had a tool that was equipped fully to handle character modeling like animals, people, monsters, etc. and yet still have a huge selection of training materials and local classes to take with the tool to help me through it.  

If you'v got the money then I'd say go 3D Max.  I had the money and feel I went the wrong way.  I spent $2,600 on C4D and its plugins and another $300 on books and online video subscriptions .... argh!  I should of gone 3D Max for that money.  And you know what?  You will still end up spending money on other things later probably like more plug-ins, textures, etc...its a pricey activity.  But as is commonly said here, that is only my opinion.

By the way, I also don't like the landscape environment capability with Cinema 4D.  Vue Infinite blows it out of the water.  Vue Infinite is not just a renderer but excellent for creating worlds of plant life, mountains, grass, etc. to make a world for you to import your 3D creations into.  I'm only adding this last part because of a Vue statement I saw earlier.  I still say I should have gone 3D Max over C4D.

Oh and one last thing...here I go again.  ALL these products HAVE PROBLEMS.  None of them are perfect.  Just look at the threads.  Someone is always having one problem or another, even with 3DMax.  I'm only saying this so you can expect it.  Thats technology for you.  We just have to get around the problems, as many do.

Take a look at this video:
http://content.luxology.com/modo/201/video/modoTechPreview.mov

This is a preview of whats to come for Modo 3.01. Just wanted to show what Modo COULD do in the future release. I think Silo can do most of this already, just not sure YET. Perhaps Teyon can shed some light on that part, lol.

I know I will enjoy them new features soon, hopefully, lol.

Thankx
Cornelp...

Quote - Hey,

I worked there from '00-'01 before tech support was outsourced to Jamaica of all places. (Hey, any of you want to move to Jamaica? No? See ya'...)

Thanks again, and take care,

• A

Gotta love job security these days. I think outsourcing CEO and management positions would help the bottom line even more. :)

Coming into this late, I see the others have supplied good info in response to your questions. I would agree that Carrara and Bryce are reasonable choices for your first 3D apps. You mentioned you have an interest in mechanical things, and while you can certainly model these in Carrara and Bryce, there are certain advantages to using a CAD modeler (FormZ, VectorWorks, SolidWorks etc.). 

If you stick with Carrara and Bryce (and maybe Wings3D) for now,  you will have enough background in 3D to understand what all these other apps could do for you (areas where your current apps may not meet your needs). 

Chris

Wow, thanks again, all. (I hope I am not robbing you too much of your creative time!)

I think Zonkerman might have a good grasp on at least the dilemma that prompted my question in the first place...not knowing what to try to put a program through it's paces seemed a little difficult to even get started.

I am sure that to all of you experienced in 3D software you could, by now, probably just read a spec sheet and know if what it does will work for you. In my own situation, though, being a good traditional artist, yet a neophyte to the whole 3D world and not just one program, it would have been a lot more daunting to think of even being ABLE to get enough out of a 30 day demo.

So please understand how much I appreciate the guidance here. Of course I mentally went over the prospects of downloading all of the demos, but the "where to start and what to look for (meaning how to gauge)" I was totally deaf, dumb, and blind to.

On the other end of the multimedia spectrum, I have written music for over 20 years and know the audio production software like the back of my hand. (No, not much TV time for me, growing up - too focused on art and music!  :)  ) So when I look at a new program it takes me about 2 seconds for me to figure out its value.

So I guess that word sums it up - value.

WIthout having some kind of input like you all provided here, I could have spent weeks, months, or whatever long not even knowing that Carrara's modeling capabilities weren't as productive as XYZ's...

I am sure after trekking out and becoming familiar with one or two programs it'll all start to make more sense, but like Zonkerman I don't want to spend any more money on something that wouldn't do myself half as good as...(fill in the blank).

And before this thread, I didn't even KNOW about Modo, and holy crap does it look nice!

And maybe another sort-of-technical question, though - do programs render at about the same speed? Obviously I am talking about if the same scene, objects, etc were all there, nothing different about any of them.

Is this what makes a renderer "better"? How fast it does it? Because right now, I can't tell what you actually do as a user but push the "go" button to make it render - meaning that the user's work is generally done at that point.

And is rendering just a product of CPU and RAM, or do any rendering calculations happen in the graphics card, also?

Thanks again, all, and have a super weekend,

• A

Well here is what I think. (I will disagree with Zonkerman on a number of things) Value well Blender is free but a bit of a challenge. Lightwave is cheap for you and so is XSI a lot of people are switching over to XSI because of the features and price. I think  for just modeling Wings is the best value out there free and good there are some top pros who use it.
   

     When you get your software get to knwo the tools and what they are. I use wings a lto but I go thru Maya tutorials and I can because I know my toolset. Once you know yoru toolset you can do tutorials for other software and learn techniques. Pricipals remain the same in modelings and often in rendering. Tool location and names often change etc. I like using what I use because wings is a limited toolset and it is very easy to navigate.

     Rendering is a product of just CPU and ram as far as final renders go. But modeing renders aka  your workspace is done by your graphics card. So if you are modeling and you have a weak graphics card you will have problems getting high res meshes and being able to do see your work.

   Rendering quality is due to a number of things. Some programs lack options that advanced renderers have. Advanced rendering options are soft shadows. (most programs will support that now but a few still don't )  HDRI (High Dynamic Ranged Imaging) image based lighting. GI Global illumination the ability to have light comming from everywhere. SSS (Sub surface Scattering) this is making objects translucent makes for better skin and you can make soem things like Jade. Fresel shaders shaders that change color depending on angle. Rendering quality also has to do with the quality of aliasing and just how the code underneath was  written.

My advice download wings and MOI. Both are free and not crippeled demos so if you like them you can continue using them and add them to your toolbox. If you like wings then Silo might be a decent step up. If you like MOI then Rhino would be a step up. Carrera is a good tool for renders and you can put it to good use for now. Once you know the toolset then you might know better what is lacking and look at other programs.