Do people agree or disagree that the general standard in the gallery has dropped despite the software improving?

Technically things are better, though the content usually sucks. 

-me
(tired of seeing naked poser folks)

  Standard? Do you mean the level of expertise? From what I can see, that wasn't the point... it's supposed to be a place where anyone can post their work... newbie or master. Other than that, I can't see where you're going with this. Lou.

I'm not really having a dig at anyone I just seem to trawl through 20 pages of thumbnails before finding something worth opening. I suspect there may be a corelation between the software being easier to use and the amount of work people put into not only the technical aspect but but the composition.

  I realise that... that wasn't a dig at you, either. You have to realise that a lot of people are mostly newbies, and the gallery is / was mostly to either show what you can do, or to put it up there for people to critique..... in the last year, though, it has..... devolved. That has resulted in something that I've joined.... a critique group... At least, then, you don't get "Oooh, that's fantastic", when you know it's not.... conversely, you don't get people being critical, just to be critical.
  For myself, I see the large number of newbies as a very good sign. It means that there are more new people coming into Renderosity, and they're willing to put stuff up for critique. What's kinda sad, though, is when you see some of the older members slack it.
  I suppose, there ought to be a division between "old timers" and newbies, in the gallery... I really don't think they ever truly envisioned things as they are now. Lou.

Also there is a type of evolution, where some may find Bryce can no longer give them everything they want to do so they would naturaly move on to something other medium or other software.

But as archdruid said, newbies is a good sign.

Quote - where some may find Bryce can no longer give them everything they want...
*gasp!  Whinces as he reads that.

:-D

I've also thought along those lines when I first arrived at Renderosity. There were so many art softwares on display, and Bryce was in Corel limbo. But then I started seeing the works of people like Hobbit, Woodhurst, Incarnadine, and many others. I was like.. "wow! I wanna do that." Was very impressed with humble Bryce. So I strive.

When it comes to Bryce, I have no doubt it can play ball with other top line products. Yet there is more to placing objects on a screen and clicking render. Composition... POV... and the intimate knowledge of the program. For me, I'm trying to be more creative, especially with POV. I use you all, believe it or not, as my guides. I wish I could get my camera angled like Orbital does, for instance.

I think there's also an element of impatience. I haven't posted in a while. Others post once a week. Others a few times a year. I get itchy to post, but hold off until I feel there's something worth viewing. Thus I'm always backing up to DVD all the unfinished projects.

The software makes it easier, yet it's those other things.. POV, composition, patience, etc. Art ain't easy.

You know, this makes me wonder and support the idea that there should be a mini-challenge along with the monthly(bi-monthly) challenge, that focuses on something about Bryce. Whether it's a specific feature, or something.. a mini-challenge that forces contestants to learn one specific thing about Bryce. Or art in general. "Fantastic POV" for instance. Posting tips/lessons learned about good POV's could accompany such a challenge.

Actually, ......I've been around for awhile and I think the level of expertise has dropped significantly. I see the oldtimers(long time members)  posting less frequently than they used to. Some of this is due to life influences (jobs, changes in lifestlye, etc) but some is just due to plain old lack of interest IMO. For instance, it was nice to see orbital post a new image recently. I myself haven't posted in a time because of life stuff (not that my images are or were anything to point at in the first place). Anyhow,..........I agree that alot of postings by newbies is a good thing,............it means more people are discovering Bryce again. Just food for thought.

I think we have a load of new members mainly due to Bryce's low price and the fact that B5 is free. When I first started out I would post something everyday. Also we used to have a lot of excellent Brycers in the past, Rochr, hobbit, Alvinylaya, Doublecrash, Woodhurst, Roobol, Drawbridgep and Draculuz to name just a few. Some have moved on to new apps, others are busy in the real world. I now take my time with what I do. It would be easy to recycle models and post something everyday, but then that would make me lazy. I've been here 5 years now and still feel theres lots to learn. I'd rather Bryce be popular so the development is safe for the future. Yes there maybe a lot of stuff that may seem simple and of less quality but on a ratio of users I'd say that compared to other apps on here the standard is just as good.

well, at least we're (mostly) spared the ne**id Vickies in the temple..;) It takes time to perfect the craft. I've been stuck at a plateau for quite a while. I learn a trick here, there, etc., but it depends on the artist.

This is very interesting, and I agree with a lot of what's been said so far. As far as people not posting as often as before, one reason could be that they are involved with projects that take a humungous length of time to complete.

I still maintain my rate of posting something rubbish (or occaisionally vageuly adequate) every couple of months :). I'm a fairly long term member and I still don't have the hang these darn programs..... :)

I think part of the reason the standards have dropped is that some of the better artists have ruffled their feathers with breakings of the TOS or with their work being copied from here and lack of support from 'rosity. A good example would be Marcus Ranuum, (mjr) work copied from here, he got angry with the art thief and got a ban slapped on him by 'rosity......

Unless 'rosity makes better in roads to assisting where art is stolen I think people will go through a cycle of improving until their work is worth stealing then leaving......I am lucky enough to have no chance of going down that route.

:b_funny:

Wow... Death_at_Midnight, I am flattered!

I know real life is interferring in my 3dwork at the moment - just bought a house and am getting it fixed up. The big move is in just under 3 weeks. I haven't had a chance to do anything serious with 3d except helping Scanmead with lighting on one of her new projects. (Typically I make one or two images a week but not all of them can fit in the TOS here.)

Gog_CA! - I thought Marcus had left in a protest rather than a ban - that was the feel I got from him in a couple of recent conversations.

pakled - I still think a NVIATWAS challenge would be a good one to really make people stretch. Given all that has been done in this area, the challenge is to do something new, different or just so dang awesome that there is no snide remarking...

Dumb question - would anyone like a red leather corset texture/alpha for the P4 leotard? (Does anyone other than me still use P4? - grin!)

Hey,........I'd like a red leather corset,............oh, wait , I just read the rest of the post.  Darn,.......I'd look really good in a red leather corset !

I still use P4 stuff.

I've not posted anything but WIPs or simple model renders in months because I'm sick of being slandered. I make, on the average, 1 fully modelled and textured house interior w/ furniture a week or so, along with other diversionary fun models for sheer enjoyment. There just isn't any sense in posting any finished renders when all I'm going to get out of it is a couple generic 'oh, ah.' comments and reams of abusive email spam sent to me about it.

I'm not saying I'm any master or anything, but I think 'retarded kindergarten refrigerator art" and the like are a bit overboard. That's a mild example that won't get me into trouble for posting obscene language. I have tons of them on file (I keep them to get a kick out of re-reading them from time to time.)

I used to give away a lot of Bryce freebie models too (furniture, houses, fantasy & sci-fi environments, construction sets, etc.) at DAZ website.
The same attitudes made me just go ahead and delete all of the archives from my site and not bother offering any freebies anymore.

So, I'd say elitism, snobbery, and outright hostility are at least partially responsible for less image posting; at least in my case, which is all I can speak for.

I continue to make models and renders, because that is how I make a substantial part of my living; but I won't post the pictures here anymore. I just maintain a small personal fantasy/sci-fi gallery.

Yep, agree. Very hard to see what people are using Bryce for now a days in gallery. Seems like they are just using Bryce for a render backdrop and over-using other content in front of it. No real interesting camera angles or compostions like when I started here at Ren. Also very hard to tell whats pure Bryce or not in some scenes, at all too. Even the Bryce SOW(sphere over water) is more interesting than some over posed/half naked warrior Viki scenes, lol.

YEP! I notice a decrease in my interest  in anything not having to do with pickup trucks, trains, prison, writing the perfect contry and western song or gettin' drunk . . .   Must be Global Warming. 

Incardine: Marcus left in protest after he got a two week ban is my understanding from some email discussions we had after wards.

Interesting topic and I would like to bring in some newbie view:) I've been member since May 2006 and posted some 40 images within year and those are all I've ever done in Bryce. I've abandoned only few projects and left unpublished so my gallery shows very well my whole Bryce career from its very beginning. I'm now in point where I've found my own style and I can create realms and scenes that really satisfy myself. Few things have make me wonder in this time: 1. People who upload pictures almost every single day.. how's that ever possible?? I spent at least some ten hours with one image and always after the image is ready I'm very exhausted:) It took always some time to find energy and right moment to start a new project. 2. People who doesn't make any progress in their skills.. To me every new scene is at the same time opportunity to learn something new. For example in my latest pic I really wanted to have nice sewer mist effect and it took a great effort to create it in the way I imagined it. And texture study is always present in every pic:) But many users upload image after image which looks pretty much same or seems that they haven't spent any time with them. If someones 50. bryce pic looks like it could be done in 15 minutes and it gets comments like "amazing art" or so thats little odd. Well people are different and each has his/her own way and style to create art and I appreciate everyone here.. I just have wondered those things:) I'm more than grateful of finding and joining Renderosity and everyones positive feedback here.This really has opened whole new world to me:)

Well I seldom got the time to browse the galleries. But when I do it isn´t much I comment on but I try to look at how it´s done from a bryce-aspect. Even if I isn´t the greatest of bryce-users I have enough experience to see if it´s some thought put into the image and if the artist have made an effort composing it. For my own sake I get the most out of the comments if they´re from other artists that I admire and respect. The best way to reach the public I want to is by posting in this forum. Otherwise I would drown in the constant flood of vickie´s. If someone get a kick out of posting the "same" poor images five times a day that´s their own business.

Just a bit of a heads up... I've been extremely busy recently which hasn't allowed me time to go through the galleries. I'm present here, which doesn't take a lot of time for me. But looking at renders, to appreciate them, I take the time to view them full screen and try to mentally merge with them. So I'll do the gallery thing when there's time to properly appreciate them.

I have sooo many projects unfinished. They are there waiting for the day when I know enough to do something with them. Every so often I'll take one and work on it, then put it away.

With newbies coming, we really could use a mini-challenge. But also, something else to consider. When I started here in Renderosity, I saw the forum but didn't think it was for me b/c I was such a newbie with Bryce. There might be other newbies out there who are not aware of the Bryce Forum, or feel it's too advanced for a simple question.

It does seem that the number of poor quality images have increased over the past year or so. I think that this is due in part to the popularity of this site. Renderosity has gained alot of new members ranging from the talented artists for whom this site was founded, to those who have limited artistic ability but think it neat to be able to use any 3d prog. Unfortunately, these folks don't really know how to create or compose anything much beyond the poorly posed nude Vicky. And the sheer volume of their poor quality images does tend to scare off the talented artists. One bad result of all these endless poorly posed nude Vicky images is that we have gained alot of nudity surfers. By this I mean people who surf the galleries not to see the creative and talented efforts of other artists, but who come here only to see nudity. Evidence the number of viewings on any image with a 'nudity warning' label. Quite often these images will have viewings well into the hundreds, but only 1 or 2 comments. And the comments are almost always about the sexiness of the figure and never on the creativity or ability of the artist. It's interesting to visit other artists communities like cgtalk and get a feel for how members there view Renderosity. I have found that the general view of cgtalk members is that Renderosity is the place to go if you want to see poor quality and unimaginative soft porn. Of course their opinions are also flavored by their distain for low end apps like Poser and Bryce, which is not a valid excuse though, because in the right hands, these apps can and do produce very high quality images just as well as the ones that cost hundreds and thousand of dollars. Is there a solutiion to the over abundance of poorly composed and unimaginative images that clog the galleries daily? I am sure that there are several, but one that I try to follow on a regular basis is this. Let time weed out the undeserving! Don't encourage poor quality by viewing those images that your can tell by the thumbnail are nothing more than a waste of your time. and in time, hopefully short, the producers of those waste of time postings will lose interest and go away from lack of attention received. Conversely, DO click on the images that you feel are deseving of your time. And not only that, but leave a comment too.

Ditto what vangogh said.

 And I hope that it doesn't ruin what I came to Ren for in the first place..great 3D art. Content(Viki's..etc...) might make some sites like Ren/DAZ or others money, but it doesn't necessarily make one an artist.

Quote - One bad result of all these endless poorly posed nude Vicky images is that we have gained alot of nudity surfers. By this I mean people who surf the galleries not to see the creative and talented efforts of other artists, but who come here only to see nudity.

That's why you may have noticed I've been putting "nude, girl" etc in the keyword field. I think it's working... I've gotten a few private responses by some angry/annoyed viewers. :-)

Newbies, are just it, newbies. Some might come to post, not thinking their art is worth much, but they do it as an experiment. Then are amazed at the comments.. feel encouraged, and attempt another posting. After a while, as they are encouraged, the art evolves and the posting gets better. This is how it is for two family members who post here. Both use Bryce because of me. One loves glass, that's all she does, glass and color. The other is a florist, with a good eye for layout and color, but not for anything computer, so I often am helping here and there.

When I was a newbie, I already knew I wanted to grow with Bryce. But I've not had any art training, other than art history, as part of my first degree. I knew where I wanted to go but not how to get there. But it was comments from Doublecrash first, then "EYECON" (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=135247)  who both opened my eyes with soft pointers here and there.  I owe Doublecrash a big thanks because getting comments from him was like getting a good comment on a test.

I haven't been here so long, and I admit I'm guilty of over-use of my shuttle model (though it has changed alot since its first use - it gets a little better each time). That said its going into 'retirement' soon, though I dare say I'll play with it again. Even so, I try to vary my use of colour, lighting and POV to give an interesting composition each time. Whether I succeed or not I don't know - thats for you to judge - but as vangogh and D@M said the comments are what make it worthwhile, particularly from members that I have a great deal of respect for. Re what D@M said; It was a long time after I joined here that I felt I could comment in these forums, and I still think twice about it before I do. As for the Vickie in a temple issue - I suggested (in the 'suggestion box' forum) the ability to have gallery viewing preferences, similar to the hide forum options we have. Seems to have been forgotten though. I don't know about standards slipping, but there are less images posted now that make my jaw drop than when I joined. I don't put that down to a lack of quality, but a flood newer users (isn'y it 200+ each day?), perhaps posting everything they do.

That shuttle model is awesome. Don't mind seeing more of it!  ;-)

Yep, again, I just went through a couple of hundred newer pictures in the gallery. Have to remember too, Bryce has approx 240000 posts, to Poser's 897000, so I guess were gonna see Viki ALOT!...lol. Maybe its about 3D app learning curves too, cause quality suffers in most gallery pics(3d renders, not photography). But there are also some newly posted gems in there, with barely a mention. :sad:
If it wasn't for the Bryce forum here, I would probably move on.

I agree, that is a nice bit of model

     I kind of stopped being concerned at all. I agree there is a lot more of the newbie nudie pics to sift through so much it is nearly impossible to look at the galleries with your family in the room. I rely on postings by my favorite artists to see new works myself. I think replacing the hot 20 with the softcore porn charts might even have a little to do with it on the subliminal level.

I remember coming to this site years ago, 3 or 4. After a brief visit to the gallery, I just assumed it was a softcore toonporn site and didn't come back until somebody told me there was more to it than that. I haven't been actively viewing the galleries for a long time (about a year) but I can't say I've noticed all that much of a big increase in naked flesh.
Besides, there is a certain art to rendering a realistic looking nude human body. It takes a lot of lighting, texture, and shader tweaking to get it right.

Quote - When I was a newbie, I already knew I wanted to grow with Bryce. But I've not had any art training, other than art history, as part of my first degree. I knew where I wanted to go but not how to get there. But it was comments from Doublecrash first, then "EYECON"

Both talented artists, I've been here long enough to remember Stefano's early work (Doublecrash) sure as hell wish my stuff had improved as much as Stefano's.

I just payed a visit to the galleries and saw an image in the bryce-category. It was a posed nude vickie with a preset sky and water. I guess that SOW is now replaced by VIW (vickie in water). Anyway, it got over 50 comments. With that much attention it may take time to develop any further in the choice of motives.

Quote - I just payed a visit to the galleries and saw an image in the bryce-category. It was a posed nude vickie with a preset sky and water. I guess that SOW is now replaced by VIW (vickie in water). Anyway, it got over 50 comments. With that much attention it may take time to develop any further in the choice of motives.

I just saw it too and I really can't understand the number of comments?? And how someone can use words like just amazing or outstanding art etc... beautiful it is and surely deserves some attention but too much is too much because it has so little to do with Bryce.

I don't think I have ever gotten 50 comments! (grin) - I do appreciate every single one I do get though!

For the other side of the coin. I made a 3 panel comic with original rigged characters that had no comments whatsover. No biggie really I guess if I wanted those comments I would get my copy of P5 and make a naked vickie in water thing too. there you go a 5 minute masterpeice. Why bother with the work of doing your own thing.

Sometimes an artist gets a fan base that respond to every image posted, reguardless of content. All this talk about Vikie in Bryce hovers with other issues... such as those renders where all the objects are merchant items.. a really long list of bought items.. just arranged in a scene... I often wonder what did the artist do except put objects here and there-even texture is done by someone else...the merchant. Vikie gown by... vikie eyelashes by... hair by... couch by... floor by...   I don't know what to think about this sort of stuff because then it becomes a question of purity in art. But it's the end result that is what really counts, and even then there's issues in that! But it looks nice :-)

I guess I'm a bit spoiled by such software that enables me to model my own original stuff--Bryce, SolidWorks, etc. Poser and such software is different. But newbies coming to Bryce, great!

In terms of the original subject matter of this thread, there seems to have been a gap in the quality of a lot of the artists here. I took some time last night to browse some old 2003 Bryce art and found a lot to admire. My response to the newbies coming in is not to dispare of the lack of high quality, instead to encourage them because some will fill in that gap. For every journey, there must be a beginning.

Part of the reason the standard has dropped(I see this on many sites, not just Ren) is the way content is being used. Not bashing Poser or other, its just Poser type apps I thought was to be used for animations/visualisations/ additions etc..., NOT 3D stills of soft porn slapped together in an hour. I don't care if it takes skill and a week for some either, the end result is still the same.
 
I remember when companies used to say, "look what our program can do all by itself". Now its, "look what our program can import in content, which we have for sale". Thus the standard drops(along with skills), hmm. I wonder what it would have been like if Studio wasn't integrated with Bryce.

I think Poser and other apps like that are really limited in model creation. So users who use Poser are kinda stuck when it comes to creating models... thus they buy, or use other tools. But I think a lot of Poser artists would buy simply because there really are some good figures and realistic, scanned, skin and stuff that would take a whole lot more effort to make (dynamic clothing, etc). Even I've bought a 3DWorld issue that had a free Poser character in the CD. So I don't fault the artist... it's the software that's limited in modeling ability, and thus easier to just import. But I only have Poser 5 and don't know how the latest, greatest Poser does for modeling. Maybe it can model things beyond primatives now.

I do agree, there seems to be a shift towards selling content. Another forum here (*gasp! yes, Death actually reads up on the competition) is interesting to read from time to time as it seems their software makes use of importing objects with some sort of copyright tag embedded within the object, or something like that. Causes some problems. Scary things... reminds me of some years ago when "free" software shipped with ads embedded in them.

Anyway, Poser is just a convienent (sp?) example. I'm not trying to bash anyone's favorite application. Forgive me if it sounds like that. It's not intentional. I personally like Poser and wouldn't mind getting the latest. I would love to know how to make clothing or "rigging" and all that stuff.

Bryce is only partially integrated with D|S.
I wish it was fully integrated; and hope it will be.
Being able to pose figures/use content directly from within Bryce would be a major asset for the program. Being able to use 3DLight shaders would be good too; even if they are the watered down D|S ones. There are a few other features in D|S that I would like to see Bryce have.
Companies still say: Look what our software can do all by itself'.
Now, they also say: "Look what our software can do when used with other programs."
I like that. I'll never limit myself to one application. Compatability is important.

Content sales are big money, so I'd expect them to be prominent in marketing.
Using content doesn't lower standards. How many people can make sets as good as Stonemason (I'm just using him as an example, because he is so widely know, there's others too)?
Using one (or part of one) of his sets in a render isn't going to decrease the render's standard; it's going to increase it; because it is of such high quality.

Great thread!

Has the standard of the gallery dropped despite the software improving? I'd have to say "No, it only seems that way".

I've been here at Renderosity for a just  a year and have spent much of that time in the Bryce gallery (and occasional forays into gasp! the Vue gallery!) as opposed to the forum. What I found was that most everything I saw initially filled me with amazement!! It was extraordinary - even, or perhaps especailly, spheres over water! It was all new to me so I was bound to be impressed and very taken with it all. I'm so glad I was, or I would never have bothered trying to learn how to create such images myself.

Of course, naturally over time, that initial amazement and awe subsides somewhat as you tend to become more focussed on styles you really like. That initial thrill gives way to a more considered view of the artworks which are presented for your viewing pleasure. During that time, Bryce has been improving fairly substantially as well of course - the march of progress never stops (and better had not for Byce either!) so it would 'seem' that the quality has diminished over time. I daresay had I joined Renderosity in 2002 and someone posted the same question in 2003, then my answer would be the same - its a function of the change in focus of the individual's taste as opposed to a lowering of standard in the face of increasing software sophistication.

I really enjoy trawling through the galleries - I'd like to get more time to do so as its very rewarding. We are all fortunate that we can appreciate the visual arts. I get a kick out of commenting on works that are obviously quite basic, particularly those from new members. Why? Because its the best thing to do to encourage new talent and always keep Renderosity fresh and dynamic. Artists do tend to be sensitive creatures by nature, so they need to encouraged and made to feel welcome and feedback from fellow artists is the way to achieve that. Providing feedback (or equally, the lack of it) can also encourage an artist to develop and extend. As has been mentioned in this thread already, churning out the same old 'variation on a theme' isn't going to help the artist, or their chosen community here at Renderosity, to improve at all....but at the end of the day, all art is valid and has a right to be posted (as well as a right to be ignored ;-)

been here (tho lurking) since 12/01. It's a question of talent and imagination. I have in my head the same kind of pictures that Rochr and others can do, it's just somehow it short-circuits on the way out my fingers and to the keyboard..;)

the bit of labeling everything you used in Poser is a Poser thing. It's considered good form to name everything you used, and where it came from (though after a point, it's kind of hard to remember who did what..;) And the authors do notice when they're not noticed (guilty as charged..someone used one of my helmets once....once..;), as well as having omissions of mine pointed out..;)

Bryce is a very useful program, and as far as materials are concerned, has a lot more to offer than a lot of other programs. I'll continue to use it for a mighty long time. Eventually, I'll get a better handle on it, someday.

I think it may seem that the standard has 'dropped' because of the Bryce offers recently, making it more accessible and so creating  more new users (but of course  the number of members has increased alot in the past few months) .  But yadda yadda, that's already been mentioned in previous posts. 

I as an amateur  am glad there is a site like this where I can post my images, hopefully get some good critical feedback, and improve. We all have to start somewhere , and Sunset hunter makes good points about giving feedback.  I also like the mix of newbie and pro here, and have seen great work at both ends of the experience scale.