I'm wondering if anyonewho uses and V4 and Miki 2 can tell me how M2 compares to V4. I'm not talking about clothes, add-ons etc, simply the basic mesh. Bending at joints, quality of armpits, need to use magnets, ...

Also: is it possible to make M2 not look Japanese?

It's an investment of some $50 to start with, and that's too much to experiment.

Please (pretty please) don't start throwing flames. I only want some serious info to know whether that money would be well spent or not.

Thanks.

Miki 2, while undeniably cute, feels decidedly last-gen.

V4 morphs and scales very well, Miki 2 does not (even with the added morph packs).

V4 bends very well, Miki 2 simply does not.

I've tried and tried, giving Miki 2 the benefit of the doubt as a figure, but I always find myself returning to V4.

Just my two cents.

Miki 2's arms have a tendency to llok like noodles in the preview window, she renders a lot better than the preview has you believe though.

I have to say she annoys me far less than V4 does, as do all the eF figures to be honest.

It's all down to personal choice and ClawShrimp finds himself going back to V4 and I find the opposite.

Gongyla, have a look at the set "Mary" for Miki 2 by boundless, in the marketplace.   I think that that  shows how versatile Miki 2 is, in morph terms.   I think that, with the addition of the RDNA morphs,  she is now the best female figure around.

That statement is subject to one's individual taste and opinion!!  

I think V4 rocks and rolls but then again I use Studio and she really is the cats meow in that program.  Strictly my opinion!! 

Oh yea, that's right, Miki 2 can't do a cat or a dog or a fawn or an alien or...... :lol:  Don't get me wrong, she's by far the best of the eF ladies besides Sydney but....... her forearms still look funny to me when bent.  Don't get that with V4!! 

Again, just my opinion and my choice and I'm thankful I have a choice.  Could be worse!! 

V4 for JP's and better morphing capabilities. Miki 2 still does not bend well and the was suppose to be the reasoning of making a new version, for better bending. Fine for still but so much post work to animate. Miki 2 does have a unique look.

I don't know the cost now but it might be cheeper in the long run to buy a CP membership. I think you get Miki2 much cheeper and the benifit of the giveaways and bonuses of the membership.

Well, I have Miki 2 and got her when she was released with a package from CP for $9.99 but that was becuase of the passport membership.  I've worked with Miki and V4 and I have to say I really love V4 because her range of motion is just better. I also like her expressions better too. With a little patients you can get some really great expressions from V4. Miki, however, has posing and joint issues to me her rigging is tight and constricting where as V4's rigging is very smooth and fluid. V4 looks good in many poses where as Miki does not.

But, it's all in the artists hands as to preference. I like to use Miki and JessieG2 for a change from the Daz folks and they are not bad to use but do not hold a candle to V4. As for myself, I just like to use all kinds of characters for a change when I get tired of using the same one.

"Mike 2 works much better then V4 for me. But I still love A3 most"
I recon A3 is easily the most versitile character out there. The number of completely different characters she can morph to is just amazing. Nothing can match her.
Oh yeh, the base is also free (or was when I got her).

I think the only bad thing about V4 is the eylids. The wet part of the eylids should be morphable. So that one colud make it thicker( if that makes any sence). All in all it seems to me that v4 is the moste flexible figure.

Gongyla : 100,000^1000 this vs that threads have I seen over the years.

in the main 3D App's LW vs Max vs C4D vs Maya vs XSI "the so called fab 5 app's" etc etc on and on never ends.

1 You can buy all the apps,would take $30,000+ learn all the app's takes years but then you would learn there all the same.they all have the same tools C4D calls there sub division HyperNURBS, LW calls there sub dividing system SubPatch still same tool.

The question is not witch main 3D app they should use the question is can they master blender it's a free 3D app that will do all that the fab 5 app's will do.

Can you render a master peace with Possetta  or any of the other stock meshes that comes with Poser ?

jecnodde it's a nice mesh but Asian checks are deferent then Europeans.

RAMWolff:  That statement is subject to one's individual taste and opinion!!

Was that aimed at me?   I am not looking for an argument here.   Yes, it was my opinion, which is why I prefaced my comments with "I think".   Another opinion of mine:  I don't think Gongyla would regret purchasing Miki 2.

I gave Miki a go. Here are some test images I did with Miki. Nudity warning.
http://jrdonohue.com/amaya/index.html
I really wanted to like her. But Miki's arms and shoulders are not natural looking, including the newest version of her. Once and for all, women's upper arms do NOT bend inward and they do not have shoulder pads. Also, her hands/fingers...there is something wrong. The mesh is not fleshy enough, making the knuckles weirdly prominent; you can see that in the "Amaya" pictures at the link above. Finally, the bent-drinking-straw inner elbow crease....all models have it to one degree or another, but Miki has it bad.

V4.  She's my girl now. And it's not any Daz loyalty or anything...my excoriation of V3 is well known and far less gentle than that of Miki above. V3 is a nightmare.

But V4....THE MOST natural looking arms and shoulders, bar none. I have been putting V4 through some very strenuous poses and animations, in trials for a short film. She really can take bending. I can not say enough about this model and the "system" one uses to get her dialed in. Here is a link to my first evaluation of V4. If you go there, be sure to click on the images to open the larger, clearer real thing. Nudity warning.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2857374&ebot_calc_page#message_2857374

Her only fault, in my opinion, is the unnaturally high and outward-curving underarm crease when arms are at the side. I made a morph to take care of that, you can find it on this thread
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2948043&ebot_calc_page#message_2948043
All are welcome to use it.

Here's an animation of V4, wearing a read dress she stole from Jessie! (Please forgive "film-grain" overdose....I was going for something)  4 MB Quicktime
http://jrdonohue.com/anna1.mov

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - RAMWolff:  That statement is subject to one's individual taste and opinion!!

Was that aimed at me?   I am not looking for an argument here.   Yes, it was my opinion, which is why I prefaced my comments with "I think".   Another opinion of mine:  I don't think Gongyla would regret purchasing Miki 2.

It was mearly a statement following your statement saying that you have your opinion of which you think is the best mesh of the two and I have mine and others have theirs.   

Your statement came across to me like there was no other choice - that's that, close the book, were done here when in fact there are many other choices.  It could be V3 for that matter. 

It's not for "arguements" sake or to "start anything" with you it's simply saying to you that your statement was quite blanketed  with seemingly no room for anything else and perhaps in your experience so far with the two meshes that's YOUR conclusion but for many it's a different conclusion all together. 

As I show in my posted image, Miki 2 can get some nice looking characater, I have used RDNA's face morphs, and Capsces "miki finn" morph packaged, also from RDNA.
I got Miki2 when she was released and on sale, otherwize I would not bought her, but she do have something I like.

My biggest problem with V4 is that she looks too young for me, and I already have yound ppl in my runtime. I want old ppl, my age and older, that means ppl from 30 and above.

I'm not a mesh expert and really dont care about diffrent body problem each figure have. I more work with those I like "at first sight" then I learn how to work around problem areas. And there is not a singel character or figure out there that haven't got any problem areas.

But I think the only person who can figure out what you wants and need is yourself.

Attached Link: Lola from DAZ!!

Quote -
And there is not a single character or figure out there that haven't got any problem areas.

This is monumentally true in Poser.

I think that Miki 2 arms are just rigged poorly is why they bend so.

Rigs are a pain even with weights sadly Poser is weightless.

But even with Weights it is still a major pain if not imposable to get a human to bend exactly like you want.

M2 & V4 and every other character are killer meshes the trouble starts when they bend.

In C4D that has rigs and weights your character will bend better if you don't use them and just use morphs to bend the Characters.

I think this is the path DAZ is taking and eventually every one will.

Until some one comes up with a way to make layered meshes with a skin mesh flowing over top a base muscle like mesh.

Seen a Maya developer working on a plug it was still in the devolve stage but if one app gets it don't take long for all the apps to have it :)

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

But thats the thing I want a older figure, that look older without morphs  -V3 looks older defualt then V4 to me anyway. :)
I had V4 complet, but I really didn't like what I saw -so I returned her and just bought the base (mainly to be able to convert clothes)
JessiG2 also looks older then V4.
Ok I have been thinking about getting the creature thing for her -but I wait.

But as the first poster asked, I think you can get Miki 2 to look non Japanese with some work (and with her morph package)

I should think that it's possible to morph most characters into older versions.   I can't see that V4 has any special advantages.   It's the texture that determines whether or not the result is convincing.   jecnodde was asking about ages from thirty upwards.   Lola seems to have bypassed several of the relevant decades.   Morphing V4 to look thirty-eight and applying the Lola texture wouldn't exactly produce the desired result.

(NO postwork. Straight Poser 7 renders)

MIKI 2 and V4 aren't even in the same league.

Miki 2 was shaped after a real woman, while V4 was shaped to match the tastes of people who think Barbie is the ideal woman.

Miki 2 has separate buttocks and a waist group, that means she can even give Apollo a run for the money in terms of bendability.
V4 is grouped like Posette. She makes good PinUps, but don't even think about doing more demanding poses with her, as her thighs start to bulge and deform almost instantly.

Is she perfect ? Not even close,
While V4 has way too high underarm-cuts (Easy to fix in P7 but impossible if you use D|S), MIKI 2's shoulders and ellbows can need some help, too. (Again, easy fix in P7)
Also her inner mouth mesh is way too dense, resulting in unnecessary waste of your systems RAM.
(But at least she doesn't share MIKI 1's 10.000 polygon eyes)

She lacks the variety you can get with V4's add-on morphs, but if you take the time to learn using the P7 morphbrush, there is no need to wait for any costly DAZ add-on morph packs:
http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2693349

Just do them yourself. It's fun, and it will make you a lot more proud if you can say "I MADE it myself", instead of "I BOUGHT it myself".

And of course MIKI 2 has face room support which V4 hasn't.
Not to mention that she has the very best expression morphs of any Poser mesh around.

So if you want to have a realistic looking mesh which can bend like a real woman, there is no way around MIKI 2.

(I want P7... A well maybe next year)

JoePublic: >> While V4 has way too high underarm-cuts (Easy to fix in P7 but impossible if you use D|S), MIKI 2's shoulders and ellbows can need some help, too. (Again, easy fix in P7)<<

Well....."easy"? It took me around 14 hours -- including some MorphBrushTool learning curve -- to create the morphs to fix the V4 crease. Others may have been able to do it quicker.  Thank you very much.

Meanwhile.....on what do you base your statement that Miki's shoulder and elbows are easy to fix in the same way? Are you working on the morphs for us now? I doubt it;  is not the same issue. As RorrKonn points out, Miki's problem is deep in the rigging**.** I will gladly eat my hat the day you post your fix for Miki's absurd arms, inner elbow and shoulders. Amaya and I await your post with the fix.

Meanwhile #2: Frankly, the issue of V4's spectacular and lovely normality in arms and shoulders, which is what one actually sees in a still or animation of a normal character (see my animation) when compared to the use to which the model might be put in the poses you offer, begs a completly different analogy. I will let others use their imagination; I will only say that most of us will find the model rather more usefully protrayed as a walking, talking, dancing, fighting female in a strapless outfit or nude than in poses of an acrobat.

If Gongyla contines to read this thread, I suggest she amplify the usage she has in mind, the better for us to more specifically respond to her inquiry.

::::: Opera :::::

What I was hoping for is in fact a mesh that bends line V4 but has better armpits.
Add to this the frustration of DAZ going in a direction I won't follow, I thought: maybe Miki. I don't have any of the other characters that came with Poser -I stopped at P5 and I have been waiting for the Kaimera project for quite a long time now. Perhaps too long.

Operaguy: your work convinced me. For the moment I'll go on with V4. Miki is ok, but not miles above V4.

I do agree on the eys/eyelids of V4. I've been dissecting them and it's really overkill.

But then again: maybe Poser characters have to be too versatile. Hence the extreme overload of polygons.

"I will gladly eat my hat the day you post your fix for Miki's absurd arms, inner elbow and shoulders. Amaya and I await your post
with the fix."

(NO postwork, Straight Poser 7 render. Left shoulder fixed, right shoulder default)

Ok, here's what I have after ten minutes in Poser 7.
(Yes I actually stopped the time) :tongue2:
Two magnets and a morphbrush morph to fix MIKI-2's shoulder and the inward curving arm.
Because of the way she is cut she works exceptionally well with the morphbrush.
(I already thought about recutting V3RR and Laura and adding a waist group to make them bend like MIKI)

Any suggestions or corrections ?

looks up hat recipes

deep fried or boiled? ;)

i suggest you mirror the morph, export as .obj and post them here for us to work with. I have Miki2 and would welcome a chance to test drive in an animation. Can the magnets be similarily output and sent? I don't know enough about them.

::::: Opera :::::

gongyla,

Did you try my amrpit morphs? Is there something you don't like about V4's armpit besides the crease coming up too high with arms at sides?

Add to this the frustration of DAZ going in a direction I won't follow, I thought: maybe Miki. I don't have any of the other characters that came with Poser -I stopped at P5 and I have been waiting for the Kaimera project for quite a long time now. Perhaps too long.<<<

I don't know what the 'direction I won't follow' is, but I can relate to waiting for a great female model. I've been waiting for a female Apollo, or for Carodan to perhaps effect a female full body morph for Apollo itself.

::::: opera :::::

hi operaguy,
I just sent you a sitemail with the morphs.

Gongyla, I don't think Miki is for you.  I like her, but she doesn't bend as well as other figures, and she's not easily morphed to look different.

What I do like about her is that she does look authentically Asian (which, IMO, none of the DAZ figures has achieved).  And her face is wonderfully expressive.  (This is where e-Frontier excels, IMO.  Their figures have the best expression morphs.)

While you can morph Miki to look non-Asian, I really don't see the point.

Joe, I've got the morphs, will do some Miki experiments with them today.

Meanwhile, here are a few "bendy" V4 examples. She does not have "buttocks" or "waist" but I was able to simply turn up the limits on "thigh"  and get her to bend into shape. The more extreme of these....while it does not look completely natural, at least no mesh tears.

::::: Opera :::::

Sorry, I had to remove bikini bottom; they bikini did not fare well in the bending!

Quote - looks up hat recipes

deep fried or boiled? ;)

Yes, I'll take the hat in the mango salsa!

Quote -

Miki 2 was shaped after a real woman, while V4 was shaped to match the tastes of people who think Barbie is the ideal woman.

Uh, Joe, get your facts straight man.  Victoria 4 was brought to our attention at a chat that DAZ attended and made it quite clear that Victoria is an exact replica of a real woman, a famous one at that, but they were not at liberty to divulge that info because of the contracts signed.  Like Miki Victoria is shaped after a real woman! 

I know you want your opinion to be the great one that all accept and bow too but please make sure your facts are straight before typing!! 

By the way, that last render is horrific.  The thigh bend is all ripped up and if your really think a common, REAL woman can bend like that then I want to visit YOUR world because most in MY world can not!! :lol:

PS: To add, yea Victoria's underarm creases DO come up too far but other than that I think she's quite a nice mesh to work with!

"Victoria 4 was brought to our attention at a chat that DAZ attended and made it quite clear that Victoria is an exact replica of a real woman, a famous one at that, but they were not at liberty to divulge that info because of the contracts signed."

How convenient. LOL !

I believe that when you can show me a woman that is 8 1/2 heads tall like V4.
Not even Supermodels are THAT tall.
And last time I checked they had proper kneecaps and shoulderblades, too.

Sorry, but you shouldn't believe everything a corporation tells you about their products.
It's called "advertising" and is usually just a lot of horse manure.

But even IF we believe that DAZ bodyscanned a famous actress or singer, they obviously used that data only as a general base, and then unleashed their "artists" who watered down that "awfully realistic" shape to make it more palateable for the masses.
(Or what they 'thought" would be more palateable for the masses)

Sorry, Ramwolf, but whatever DAZ might say, V4 is not even CLOSE to the shape of real woman.
Not even CLOSE.

The girl on the left is 7 1/3 heads tall, that means she's already a good part above the average size for a caucasian woman.
(Talk about Supermodel size here)

Head sizes don't vary much between adults, so lets scale V4 until her head matches:

Wow, baby really got some legs, doesn't she ?

Ok, let's shrink her down till the overall size matches:

GABBA, GABBA, HEY !  :laugh:

Sorry, but V4 is proportioned like a toon or anime girl.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that if we would be talking about AIKO 4.
I'd be actually dissapointed if AIKO 4 would look like a real woman.

But we're talking about the #1 mesh of all Poserverse.

The one mesh everything else is measured against.

The one mesh that more or less IS Poser.

Shouldn't that mesh not look a little more.....

...like the real thing ?  :sad:

Joe ... Your measurements are off. V4 is more like 7 1/2 heads tall .. maybe a bit more … to the heel. Not to the high heels. I just measured it out using your picture.

I admit 8 1/2 was a bit too much.
V4 is exactly 8 heads high.

Load her into Poser and add a box prop.
Scale the box to 92% so that it's exactly the size of her head.
Scale the box along the y-axis to 800%, and you get exactly V4's height.

But 8 1/2 or 8 doesn't matter much.

Still way to tall for a real woman, even a Supermodel, like one glance at the comparison pics proofs.
And it's not just the head size that's wrong.
ALL proportions are "off".
Not to mention the missing body detail.

And her general shape is even a small part of the whole problem, because I could easily fix that.

Umm, sorry tekmonk, but your head sizes are off.

Check where your reference lines meet the eyes.
Also check where the shoulders are.
You see that V4's neck is too short to compensate for her undersized head.
And the "high crotch" is actually an undersized torso.

I think your person is a bit weird looking but that is just me. You can change her head size to anything you want though.

Anyway, here is my measured in photoshop thing.

Looking at her fingers...I am not sure about this, but E-F may have improved this. She is a little less bone-y. I still think it is not right, however...the knuckles are very prominent.

:: og ::

Attached Link: http://jrdonohue.com/mikiarms.mov

The first section consists of two arm lifts with Shoulder transitioning between -83 and zero. The first lift is without tapering off the magnets and morph. You can see that things get bunched up if you leave the morphs and magnets at 1.

The second lift has the magnets and morphs tapering off from 1 down to zero. Much better.

Finally, the last two seconds of the clip show the arm at the side but the magnets and morphs transitioning from "on" to "off". At the end you have the default Miki

:: og ::

Scaled down V4's head is too small and her hip region looks smushed which puts the crotch area up too far but other than that she just about matches the model... who does look a little bit weird, I agree GoM!!

V: People are talking about us.
M: Yes, I heard. Hey, I thought you were taller.
V: I wanted to look you straight in the eye.
M: So you've been cut down to size?
V: No, I just wanted to shop in the petitle section. So, I'm dialed in now.
M: You've got a lot learn about being this size.
V: I've got plenty of time. But don't get a big head just because you were here first.
M: That's not real underwear, is it?
V: No.

ROFL

"I still think it is not right, however...the knuckles are very prominent."

BEFORE:

AFTER :

V4?  Miki2?  I'll happily use both figures, depending upon what I want to do.

In my book, chocolate and vanilla aren't an either/or choice.  You can have both.

As for scaled pictures of real women vs. V4 (or any other mesh) -- in the world that I live in, no two women are proportioned exactly alike.  In fact, they come in a huge variety of different shapes & sizes.  While it's true that certain averages apply: it's also true that those averages vary from country to country, from race to race, and from ethnicity to ethnicity.  So......I don't worry about V4 (or any other mesh) resembling -- or not resembling -- any given woman's body shape.

Tell me -- who's the 'real woman'...........Angelina Jolie, or Rosie O'Donnell?  Tyra Banks, or Whoopi Goldberg?

(Hint: they all exist in the RW.)

I betcha that some women have 35" long legs, and that some women have 24" legs.  Or at least I suspect that's the case.............

Frankly, I wouldn't waste my time comparing the raw material of V4 out of the box against pictures of real women.  Now -- some of the characters which V4 has been morphed & textured into......that would be a different story.

But even then: I've yet to ever see a 3D model which actually looked real.  I've only seen some which were "approaching" real.  And frankly, a 'near-realistic' model can actually have a 'creepier' effect than does a model which is further off from reality.  'Near-reality' in 3D figures can be reminiscent of one of those old Twilight Zone episodes where mannequins come to life.  That's why some people don't like 3D art.

But it's all good with me.  The closer to real, the better IMO.  Regardless of the proportions of the "real woman" involved.

that's much better Joe, how'd you do that? What dials?

:: og ::

Some real women have large knuckles & bony-looking fingers, too.

God, I love these..... Open runtime and look. We have... Posette V1, V2, V3 ,V4 Judy and variants Jessie and variants Miki 1 & 2 Natalia 1,2, and Ultra and variants Dina and variants Sydney All generations of the preteens and preschool kids. Cubed babies M1,M2, M3 D1, Steph 1,2,3 Koshini 1 & 2 Carla Solandra Nikki Staci Bel bel Bao Alexa 1 & 2 Cherry Anime 1&2 Her and Him Aiko 1-3James 1&2 Koji 1&2 Kelvin Neftoon Gal Terai Yuki 1&2 Kaedeko F-202 Eroko Tuyuko Rikishi Mayadoll and variants Almost all of Thorne's dollies Handspan Studios Aery souls Apollo Max 2005 & 2007 And they all get used, because they all have something unique about them. They're just resources; none of them are the be all and end all of anything. Despite the popularity of the DAZ figures, they still can't seem to deal with switching geometry like Dacort did with Natalia and Natrixa. V4 is the first DAZ mesh that actually has a non-human leg system available (not counting Traveler's monster kit, which has been gone for some time). And its easier to get variation by using different meshes than it has proven to be to get it by morphing one mesh.

Alexa 1, perhaps, shouldn't be there.   She didn't have quite as much that was unique about her as she should have, which was why the people at 3DCommune went to the considerable effort of creating Alexa 2.