I am defending Poser in a Max/Maya forum as we speak. I would never have brought the subject up, since Poser gets dissed day in and day out at such places, but spotted two "Poser insults" as I was surfing for information on XSI and Max and just could not hold back.

WARNING: if you attempt to register and post, they screen your postings at first and they are REALLY BAD at keeping up with it. KEEP A COPY OF ANYTHING YOU POST in case they lose it. 

::::: Opera :::::

At the end of the day Poser is a tool just like any other 3d application, if people can't get past their elitist "my app is the only one to use, all else is a toy" bullsh*t attitude then I wouldn't give them the time of day.

well i am not going to spend much time on it....but I am a little blown away at the extent of their chavinistic pride in their particular paradigm.

:: og ::

**dphoadley@****operaguy
**You fail to indicate where this site is, so it's very hard to rally the troops if they don't know where to assemble.
DPH

The problem is that most of the high end apps need the user to have a degree of some sort to be able to understand the front end, the Poser designers made the fatal error of making it easy to understand & therefore accessible to more than just the elite & they don't like us amateurs encroaching on their territory. S*d them! They can stick to reinventing the teapot & sphere while I play dressup with Poser ;)

Quote - **dphoadley@****operaguy
**You fail to indicate where this site is, so it's very hard to rally the troops if they don't know where to assemble.
DPH

Google is your friend. Follow the Path of Google-Fu.

(or find it in 3.4 seconds by putting 3DBuzz in Google. it's the top answer)

dont worry what other ppl think. do what you enjoy and sod everything else

You can't control what others say and do, but you can control how you react to it.

There is no need to defend Poser or your choice for using it.  Their views are elitist and nothing you say will change their opinions because they aren't interested in changing it or seeing it from a different point of view.

Pick your battles :)  This isn't one worth fighting or getting your blood pressure raised over.

Sorry, i forgot to include the link!

http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=150857

not a good idea to try to incite a lynch mob every time some 3D snob bad-mouths poser IMVHO. it would be a full-time job, as somebody is maligning it every hour of every day AFAIK. what I'd rather see is poser users attempting to raise the level of their work, as is currently being done, in a constructive manner, by the critique group here. the day is long past when any giant-boob, nostril-glow p3-style render should be given a pass without some reminder that it's substandard work, if we are gonna make those 3D snobs see the light of day. we shouldn't make it possible for them to judge the app by our continual, uncritical praise of the worst efforts of the folks with the most user errors.

Note: the file I posted at 3DBuzz is of better quality than the one here...it is the full .png over there, too big for Rendo limits.

::::: Opera :::::

Tell them they eat poo poo!

Hmmm I wonder if photographers are lesser artists since they weren't around for the whole creating adam and eve thing?  Or maybe only women photographers are artists, since only we have the capability of forming humans.  

I guess all those nature photographers are SOL - since obviously none of them create the plant life.

Divinci, now there's a craptacular artist for you - that fool didn't even take the time to make his own paints.

Point is, EVERYONE stands on someone elses shoulders to create art.  Even Mr.  Elitist there in that forum - I will give in that perhaps he can build his own PC - but did he invent his processor which helps him handle the 3d load? - does he credit Bill Gates and the maker of his wacom in his work?  Without these tools he would be less equipped as well.

That was slight compared to some of the other forums I have read by "real artists" commenting on Poser.

I've been banned from so many CGI sites it's kinda sad...but, funny.  I don't claim to be an artist, though,  have in the past.  I realize that it's just a obsessive hobby for me.  

BUT, don't you dare say that I've "stolen other artists work, claiming it as my own" when I post something I've worked on for a few days and put my signature on it.  I may not have built everything in the picture, but, I do give credit to the artist items I use.

The arguments I've gotten into wth other CGI people is they automatically think that since they know a program like Maya, they are automatically artists.  I'm sorry, but, I've seen many Maya (and other 3D ap galleries) and I've seen some really bad stuff posted followed by their fangirls and fanboys shrieking how fabulous it looks. (but, that's everywhere with every type of artistic outlet)

Just because you can use a tool doesn't make you a professional nor does it make you an artist.

dphoadley that is a damn nice pose and render!

did you guys see my "clay" comment there?

I did see your clay comment - that was good = )

DP imo that is the very best you have done, that looks fabulous!

While I didn't actually seek to copy any of his specific pictures, I was inspired by the work of  abetaltre, who's a regular here in the galleries.
DPH

Tell them that you'd heard a rumor that Maya and Max were both great apps, and that you'd wanted to verify whether or not the rumor was true.  Then tell them that you've discovered that the rumor has GOT to be true: because every user of those programs attains instant personal greatness merely by firing up the software on their computers!  It works like magic!  

Plus, those software packages serve to elevate the anointed Users Of The APPS to heights of personal worth which are well above the remainder of the human race.  The high-priest practioners of the ART can then lay about in togas and eat clusters of grapes hand-fed to them by slaves, while they mutually congratulate themselves on having achieved such status as to sit among the clouds -- and far above everyone else.  Spitting out grape seeds over the balcony rails, and onto the heads of those filthy animals dwelling in the 3D ditch below them.

No......they're not like those other people.......the ones who're too stupid to be admitted past the door with the "Only Smart People Like Us Are Allowed In Here!" sign hanging on the front.

Human nature always needs someone else that it can look down on.  You lift yourself up by lowering others.  Or at least that's the accepted method.

"Vanity" comes from a root meaning "emptiness" or "to be empty".  But we've all got it.  It's a disease common to all human beings.

Quote - Just because you can use a tool doesn't make you a professional nor does it make you an artist.

Well said.  Very well said.

Missed a few steps, opera..... :P ;) 1) You get an idea for a character, scene or a film. 1a) Develop characters; both look and personality traits 1b) story premise. 1c) Actual plot(s). 1d) rough story draft. 1e) 1st revised script (words and action, no shooting info) 1f) initial storyboarding 1g) 1st shooting script 1h) first round of revisions to deal with issues of difficulty in implementation. 1i) Next round of script/storyboard revisions 1j) Repeat as neccesary to lean things out and simplify scenework as much as possible. 2) Model 3) Texture 4) Design shaders 5) if animation....Rig 6) if animation....keyframe 7) if animation...cloth sim 8) if animation...hair sim 9) if single image...pose 10) lighting 11) render 12) Post Production 12a) Special effects creation 12b) Vocal tracks 12c) Foley tracks 12d) Scoring 13) Compositing 14) Titles and Credits. 15) Distribution prep 16) Check-in at local sanitarium And I left out a lot of steps, as well..... BTW, have you ever checked out a piece of software called MovieWriter Pro? It is a nice, low cost script formatting word processor app with some story development goodies thrown in for good measure ( a scene map, synopsis, an expandable elements area to create custom info to tailor it for your scripts etc). I tried it on a lark, and was rather impressed with it.

Well, to be frank, in spite of liking poser, and liking to play with it's content, I do get little higher sense of self-respect when I create a 'from scratch' piece, which does require several apps and a ton more work then tweaking and assembling a scene in poser.

On the other hand, I can have more creative liberty in some aspects of quick experimenting with the 'final look' when I use 'quick and handy little apps - my pet name for apps like Poser and Bryce and similar'.

I haven't gone to see the thread the original poster is complaining about. I'm never fond of anyone 'devaluing ' the other side, nor do I like trying to compare apples and oranges. Comparing Poser to Max or Maya, to me is like comparing apples and oranges. They're not the same thing, the process of cration something in tose apps isn't the same thing.

I can see how someone claiming that creating a piece in poser takes the sme amount of work and effort as creating something from scratch in maya will come across as devaluing work of others, and is likely to draw some cross comments.

Well, the reactions weren't that bad. Two jerks, agreed, one of which can't be very mature judging by his "SMS speak" - probably using a warez copy of Max. The rest of the responses were quite reasonable. Not that I agree with them, but reasonable all the same.

**Conniekat8, "**I can see how someone claiming that creating a piece in poser takes the sme amount of work and effort as creating something from scratch in maya will come across as devaluing work of others, and is likely to draw some cross comments."
**
You undervalue the power of my approach, sorry. You should have gone there before speaking. I did not claim anything about "same amount of work" and I did not devalue, yet hopefully I may have helped stop them from dissing Poser out of hand and out of ignorance. And besides, with all due respect to your sense of satisfaction as mentioned, which I understand....put yourself in the place of the person who completes all 16 of Dale's steps above, while the modeler only attacks perhaps 2,3,10.11 and 12.

Dale....I use Final Draft and have written a full screenplay. Got dinged by a Hollywood type because I went over the 'sacred' 115 pages.  I like your list and certainly agree, especially point 16!

::::: Opera :::::
**

svdl, i agree that besides the initial jerks, the others have been mild and reasonable.

Quote - every user of those programs attains instant personal greatness merely by firing up the software on their computers!  It works like magic! 

   It has a "Make Art" button?!!! 

  OMG!  Where can I get that magical program!! 

I like point #16 on Dale's list.  Perhaps the most labor-saving approach would be to skip over all of the other steps, and jump directly to #16.  That way you can avoid a lot of unnecessary grief, and get directly to the conclusion of the whole matter.

Oh, and nobody mentioned morphing the heck out of the model, using magnets, combinations of built in morphs, and the morph brush tool, bringing the geometry up to snuff for a good still render?

I didn't think they were ready for the concept of a mesh deforming brush inside of Poser. I really like that tool, by the way.

Dale B's list reminded me a bit of what I went through remapping Posette.  Now remapping V4.1 is providing me with a whole new set of dizzy dithers.
DPH

Quote - put yourself in the place of the person who completes all 16 of Dale's steps above, while the modeler only attacks perhaps 2,3,10.11 and 12.

Please note that I talked about sense of satisfaction of 'creating' something from scratch, rather then just modeling it, or taking any segment of the process, as opposed to the whole process.

Quote - I did not claim anything about "same amount of work"

 
I never said you claimed that, which is why I very carefully pointed out that I didn't read your specific discussion, and deliberately said "I can see how someone..." rather than saying "you claimed that..."

As for devaluing, I'm sorry if you feel your particular efforts are being devalued, however, I do stand by my statement that creating a scene in poser does not require the same amount of time, effort or skill then creating (not just modelling, but creating, which would include ALL of the steps Dale mentioned) a piece with other applications in question.
Also, you need to take notice that this doesn't mean that work in poser is not of value all together. Like I said, I use it myself on many occasion.

Quote - You undervalue the power of my approach, sorry. You should have gone there before speaking.

 
I specifically said I did not go read the thread (nor do I intend to), nor am I familiar with your particular approach, just so you would know that I'm not talking about you specifically, but more generally about the reccuring Poser VS. high end apps argument. 
My comments will make a lot more sense if interpreted within the contextual parameters I outlined. 

As for what I should and shouldn't do, noone is preventing you from attempting to tell me what I should do, however, you do need to take notice that you have no actual say in what I do, and that I consider it very impolite, if not argumentaive and rude, on your part. 
If there's an application or a cause you are attempting to defend, this kind of emotional outbursts will not do it service, but only harm.

"Everytime poser is used an artists gets their wings" Oooooo I'll reserve my comment about elitists!

If you were not talking about this specific situation, or about me specifically, then what prompted you to make a 'general' comment about people devaluing, etc? Were you just walking by and decided to start up a new topic right in the middle of this one?

Hey DP, your are ditzy because of that cute but unnatural growth coming out of your head.

Will your remap mean all V3 textures work on V4?

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - I like point #16 on Dale's list.  Perhaps the most labor-saving approach would be to skip over all of the other steps, and jump directly to #16.  That way you can avoid a lot of unnecessary grief, and get directly to the conclusion of the whole matter.

LOL, yea, but, then all of those who got to 16 the hard way and are full of resentment over it would take it out on you, try to make your life miserable and tell you that you don't belong!

Well, we just got past the My Vicky is better then Your vicky argument, so Poser is being dissed argument was bound to crop up... 
[Kitty checks her 'schedule of recurring arguments' booklet...] 

People be warned: When it gets to three pages long, I'm posting kitty pictures.

that render by dave of posette in the chair is very nice IMVHO. I like it. there are some difficulties with the area of the right knee, face and right hand, but nobody will notice them. perhaps posting such an image at the maya or maxx forum might be instructive.

' Hey DP, your are ditzy because of that cute but unnatural growth coming out of your head.

Will your remap mean all V3 textures work on V4?

::::: Opera :::::'

That cute bit of growth is my  grandson, Ariel-Yehuda.  He's now one and a half years old.  :biggrin:
And yes, once I finish remapping V4, it should take ALL of V3's textures, just like my PosetteV3 does now.  My big question is: How would those 3D Maxers/Mayers rate UV Mapper as a modeling app (you don't actually creat stuff in UV Mapper, but if done well, you sure can make them LOOK good). :thumbupboth:
DPH

I don't usually bother talking about this stuff, but here's two points that come to mind for me anyway.

1. All those other apps are toys when it comes to shaders. Almost all those ridiculous snobs use UV mapped texture images, most of which are either photos they downloaded (didn't even photograph themselves), or they are seamless tiles they downloaded. Almost none of them bother making procedural textures like I do, from scratch, using only math. Even if they wanted to, those toy apps they use can't do full blown procedural shaders, like Poser. They make me laugh with the feeble wrapping of other people's photos on their objects and claim its their own "art" work. LOL

2. Last time I gave a piano performance in public, I played Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue and several hundred people stood up at the end and cheered like maniacs. Not one of them claimed I was a lesser artist because I played a piece written by someone else. Also, I did not construct the piano I used. It wasn't even my piano - I just walked up and played whatever was on the stage at the time. Nobody complained that I used a crappy Baldwin while real professionals play Bosendorfers.

i love it when one group of people turn to childish taunts because someone can do what your doing easier and cheeper, and i particularly like it when the reply is "Tell them to eat poo poo".
Thanx pjz99 it made me laugh

Quote - Dale....I use Final Draft and have written a full screenplay. Got dinged by a Hollywood type because I went over the 'sacred' 115 pages.  I like your list and certainly agree, especially point 16!

::::: Opera :::::

I considered Final Draft myself, but have a long standing love of WordPerfect, and the cost was a bit more for another word processor (MovieWriter was only $24.80 US). It would be nice to get a script produced, but I daresay my....rearranging of conventional borders doesn't make that likely. Besides, it's a lot more challenging to write and animate and all the other things yourself. Oh, I forgot: 16a) While busily sucking your toes in the nice polyvinyl room, you being to plan the storyline for the next one.....

Wow BB, you are rad! Yes, I notice none of them responded to my "shader inclusion"

By the way, you know if you play the Rhapsody on a Bosendorfer, it is rumoured that the run in the first measure actually sounds just like a real clarinet smear!

I have been saving for a Bosendorfer for years. However, I recently auditioned the upper level Yamaha grands....you know.....they are right up there and in some ways better than the Bosendorfer!  For composing, I used a sampled Bosendorfer for quite a while, but recently switched over to the sampled Yamaha concert grand.

::::: Opera :::::

here's one of my pieces
9MB mp3

http://jrdonohue.com/thepreludes/prelude1-fd.mp3

::::: Opera ::::

Yamaha is my favorite favorite grand piano. All of them - even the little bitty ones. I was on tour in 1972 when I first encountered one on stage. I thought "what is this!?! a cheap Japanese grand piano!?! I'm supposed to play a Toyota!?!" Then I played it. Wow.

Just listened to your prelude - beautiful. 

Did you decide which part frequency spectrum of the recording to discard by hand to compress the audio, or did you just use somebody else's MP3 software and just push "compress". If you did, then never mind what I said, that sucked and you suck for resorting to "instant compression" software. How can you call yourself an artist if you just let some mindless piece of code decide how to compress your music.

if you play the Rhapsody on a Bosendorfer, it is rumoured that the run in the first measure actually sounds just like a real clarinet smear
That made me laugh.

I actually have played it on a Bosendorfer. When I was at MIT I used to sneak into Kresge auditorium and play the one that's there. That thing is da-bomb.

  Y'know.... I wonder if I could find some way of posting anonymously, because I'm likely to be lynched over this...... I believe in utility... if an app serves my purposes, I will use it... if only part of an app serves my purposes, I will use that. I see no reason not to use something that limps along at one thing, but is fantastic at something else. I have some apps that are nothing more than a means to port something from one to another, without data loss. Following the logic of people who will not use "those other" app's, I'd expect to hear, any day now, that there are no artists any more, since nobody uses rocks on walls to make pictures. If people are silly enough to believe that you should use no other app, then let them. I will happily continue to create what I envision using whatever fits the need. Lou.

Well, let no one say bagginsbill does not air it out.

I am on LogicPro 7.   I am deploying the compressors in Logic and also in Apple, but having trouble bouncing to my satisfaction....I am just learning this complex technology, regardless of my composing skills. So that is why I suck.

I'd send you the .aiff but I'm sure you'd trash that with all the vehemence of your mouth as well.

No problem.

Glad you liked the piece. And yes the 9' imperial grand Bosendorfer is the top.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote -   Y'know.... I wonder if I could find some way of posting anonymously, because I'm likely to be lynched over this...... I believe in utility... if an app serves my purposes, I will use it... if only part of an app serves my purposes, I will use that. I see no reason not to use something that limps along at one thing, but is fantastic at something else. I have some apps that are nothing more than a means to port something from one to another, without data loss. Following the logic of people who will not use "those other" app's, I'd expect to hear, any day now, that there are no artists any more, since nobody uses rocks on walls to make pictures. If people are silly enough to believe that you should use no other app, then let them. I will happily continue to create what I envision using whatever fits the need. Lou.

Actually.......I agree with what you've said here.  I seriously doubt that anyone will lynch you for indicating that all of the various 3D apps are just tools in a toolbox.  But I would add that those legitimate tools include Poser among them.

I like Poser largely because it is a fantastic aid to storytelling.  Poser makes it possible to whip out scenes in short order, and to get a story done -- without having to spend a man-year of your personal time to do it.

1. All those other apps are toys when it comes to shaders. Almost all those ridiculous snobs use UV mapped texture images, most of which are either photos they downloaded (didn't even photograph themselves), or they are seamless tiles they downloaded. Almost none of them bother making procedural textures like I do, from scratch, using only math. Even if they wanted to, those toy apps they use can't do full blown procedural shaders, like Poser.

There are lightwavers who make shaders.  And,  now, with the nodes, we're all getting real math conscious.  Also, lots of folks use zbrush for texturing these days.  And, why is using downloaded texture images/photos worse than using a whole premade model with textures and all the rest?  I'm not getting that.

I like making my own stuff.  I have for years.  Unless you try it, you can't claim to know the satisfaction in it.

Quote - ::::: Opera :::::

I am listening to your piece as I type this, Opera.  Excellent.  I'm not a musician (my wife is -- her forté is voice -- she's a classically-trained soprano), but I have a deep appreciation for good music.  I wouldn't mind hearing more from you.

Thanks!

Hey, I listen to Bluegrass, too -- got any? 

Your piece is great.  I enjoyed it thouroughly.

Lets stick to topic folks and not hurl personal insults.

Thanks