This first example is Rendered using the P4 Rendering engine.

Click to enlarge, btw.

If you look really closely at the first two, you will see a little bit of difference int he skin, that is mostly from the displacement mapping, which in my opinion does add some nice realism, but is not overly needed, depending on situation.

I like that in the third image the skin looks a bit softer, but I would really have to play with the lights to get a better effect.  I could argue that the AO isn't needed, mind you, in this type of image.  There is nothing I can see of added value.

Notes of interest:  What's up with the hair?  It actually rendered better in the P4 render.  Well, that is to say, it rendered properly with the P4 engine, and it is a mess in the two firefly renders!

It's a Koz hair and honestly, this might be my first time employing it! LOL.  I just wanted to throw some hair on so she wasn't bald!  Weird.

Angelous cultry, i used the one.. called "Minitut - Dramatic light and shadows for portraits - NO NOSTRIL GLOW" Man, the way he gets it it's soo much better than mine. He uses victoria but i don't know how he gets better results than me. Maybe he's using another texture? And he doesn't even use Real Skin shader, i dont' think. so it's impressive. If bagginsbill is around here, how did you get the silky skin? I tried all the settings you mentioined( e xcept for anything about the shading cameras, i couldn't follow that part)

lol, tebop, i hope you encouter BB, I really hope you do!

Angelouscurity - Poser does not have real subsurface scattering, and Face_off's shaders do not implement it but fake it. Human skin is a very complicated thing. You have white semittransparent skin flakes over red blood vessels. No poser skin shader simulates that. So everything which tries to implement SSS is a fake.

The Fast Scatter Node simulates only a very small part of it. It's just for light behind a person to show on the edges. But that is not the full effect of sss.

bantha, what do you know of the other applications, do they have 'true' (or at least more advanced) SSS?   Maya, Max, XSI for instance?

All of them do because of mental ray, which is a rendering option in Maya and Max, and the main render engine in XSI (in fact, I believe XSI was actually built around mental ray). So, if ef would buy a mental ray license we'd have SSS in Poser! :p

perhaps VRay would be a more likely fit for Poser. Does anyone know if VRay has true SSS?  Threre is a VRay/trueSpace bundle available currently.

I believe (but correct me if I am wrong) that even Carrara does true SSS.  Heck, there is a plug in for Daz Studio that does SSS, or at least does a really nice approximation from the samples I've seen.

This is really Poser's weakest area, anyone will tell you.  When freebie software and low end apps can offer something as crucial to human flesh as SSS but Poser, the supposed premier people rendering software app can't, well, there is a serious out-of-touchness going on, I think.

More then anything else I think that this is a true detriment to Poser.  The past two owners of this fine application should be ashamed.  I would really like to see them address this as a patch and as soon as possible.  I think it is an insult to those of us who use the software.

On the other hand, there are many people who refuse to employ Raytracing, so maybe there is money in catering to the lowest common denominator...

silverthorne, operaguy: You knew that mental Ray and VRay are production level renderers, and priced as such? It would surely nice to have a bridge to either of them, but most people here think that FireFly is complex - and spending another $1000 just for the render is probably a bit overpriced for most.

A lot of renderers do SSS, because you need it for a lot of stuff. As far as I know, you can even have SSS with PovRay. A good way for poser people would be Vue d'Esprit, which does have SSS. Although that would mean that you would have to construct your skin shader with Vue's material system.

Concerning Vue d'Esprit, SSS is hard to manage. I never got a decent skin with it. I'm not really in the material editor, but i did'nt find tutorials anywhere.

yes i am aware of the price of vray and renderman. However, I am already considering moving into Max or XSI for superior animation tools and power render. Both of those apps include renderman, price about $1800 for each, I believe.

Interestingly, truespace7 comes bundled with vray, and since I have a license (older) I could upgrade to the full deal for about $600.00. While I like the trueSpace environment, and I hear the 7.0 animation tools are a big step up from Poser, and I'd have VRay......I am hesitant of trueSpace for dynamic hair and cloth. I don't think they are really "there" yet in trueSpace.

Getting Poser assets into Truespace is not a problem.

::::: Opera :::::

Of course I know the price, that's why I ended the post with the :p. It was a jest. Of course, you CAN get the cheapest version of XSI for $495 and it does include mental ray so it isn't -that- out of reach...

Good thread - lots of great postings - keep it up.

Face_off did produce the Daz V4 shaders - he told me himself in a Rendo site mail. The technique he used was actually one that I posted - using the Diffuse node to drive the SSS effect produced by color ramp or blend or Cosine or lots of things - all are the basic same idea of how to approximate the redder areas without using the actual light coordinates. The RSS and similar scripts by face_off all use the light coordinates to produce more accurate SSS.

As I've done in many experiments, you can get close to correct SSS with tricks as he did with the V4 shader. However, certain lighting situations always blow up - for example if you're using very even and bright lighting from an IBL.

My latest Ultra Basic shader (was linked by a couple other people) shows how I found a way to reduce the tricks to the smallest possible number of nodes. And it actually blows up less than many of the other versions I've posted, including the way the V4 shader works.

greetings bagginsbill,

do you have an opinion of the qualilty differential between that achieved by you and Paul and that generated by vray or renderman as opposed to that generated by Vue, all else being as equal as possible, both from the quality of render and speed of render perspective?

::::: Opera :::::

Operaguy,

I don't have a lot to base an opinion on - I know that I see more Vue renders that are outstanding than I see Poser renders that are outstanding. I really think IBL is a poor substitute for global illumination, and that faking SSS is a lot of work. I don't know much about how hard those things are to do in the other renderers.

I know a bit more about having played with it Modo and both the SSS and GI in Modo are a) better than anything else I've ever seen and b) very easy to configure - too easy as sometimes Modo users overdo the SSS.

On the left is V4 with the standard Daz high-res shader applied. On the right is my Ultra Basic shader using the same textures, but my new technique for SSS and specular.

The render was done with 35% IBL and 65% infinite light. The Daz shader is very nice - I love it. But this lighting is not very good.

In this last render, I changed the compensation color in the Ultra Basic shader so that it is darker and less green. This creates more contrast with a very simple adjustment.

None of these are "better" or "worse" - just different. Whatever you want is what you want.

i certainly like your results better in that last image...and with AO.

Very convincing. I will be studying your Ultra Basic to learn.

Thank you,

::::: Opera :::::

i need a shader for very white skin; what people think of when they say "porcelain." I know this needs SSS, probably true SSS. I don't want it to be a caracature of skin, however.

In an effort to move in that direction, I opened the Daz hi-res texture in photoshop and lightened it and pulled out some of the red. This helps, some. But do you have a suggestion for shader settings that will get me going in the direction of white 'porelain' skin with IBL, but with shadows/AO?

::::: Opera :::::

sorry BB, i am inturrupting your flow! my apologies to the thread.

I like that effect. Looks naturally random.

Terrific shaders bagginsbill,
  Where can I find them?
cheerio  lululee

Ah-HA!

Hi lululee!

I'll post them here for you if you like, as Mat pose files so you can just click to apply. What V4 textures do you want them to use: the standard or the high-res?

Hi-Res!  ::::: pipes up :::::

bb......are any of your shaders actually products in any of the stores?

::::: Opera :::::

bb......are any of your shaders actually products in any of the stores?
Not that I know of. I certainly don't sell them - I give them away as a thank you to the community. I've posted hundreds of them in the forums here and at RuntimeDNA.

I've seen some of my cloth shaders show up in some free stuff items. 

Hires coming up. Give me a few minutes.

Open the zip - inside is a folder called V4UBSS - it contains mat-pose files that will change the skin shaders on your V4. Eyes, lashes, etc are not changed. I've included preview icons so you can see what they look like in your library window.

Copy the V4UBSS folder to your runtime pose folder. Then drill in, select your V4, and double click the shader you want to apply.

**PAY ATTENTION: These require that you already have the DAZ V4 Hi-Res texture files. If you don't have them, these shaders will not load properly for you.

PAY ATTENTION: Renderosity does not allow me to upload a file with a ZIP extension. So I have named the file V4UBSS.zip.doc - you must save as V4UBSS.zip. If you are one of those people who have windows set up so that you cannot see or change the last part of a file name (known as the extension) you will have problems. Bring up the Windows Explorer for any folder. Select the menu item Tools / Folder Options.... Inside the dialog that pops up - select the "View" tab. Then disable the Advanced setting "Hide extensions for known file types". Click OK. Once you disable that item, you will be allowed to see and change extensions. And you will be allowed to choose the true name from your browser when you "Save Link As".**

Also, for those of you who use Matmatic, the V4UBSS folder contains the file "v4ubss.mm1.txt" which is the Matmatic script I used to generate the shaders. If you are a Matmatic user, you will find the script useful as it will let you change any or all of the parameters of these shaders and generate variations to your heart's content. For example, you can adjust the HSV parameters, and choose how much freckles and moles to apply, and make as many of these variations as you want.

Also for Matmatic users, the script contains a statement:

wantHiRes = 1

If you want to try these shaders with the standard textures instead of the hi-res textures, change that to say:

wantHiRes = 0

Thanks so much. Amazing quality. thanks so much for your generosity.
cheerio  lululee

lululee - you gonna post us a proper render? I rarely have the patience to do pleasing images - I just do test renders all the time. I love your renders. Can't wait to see what you do with this shader.

WooHoo !! Thanks for that Bagginsbill - just firing up Poser to take a look

Wow, Lululee, very nice!  Whistle, whistle, :woot:, :woot:!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1441612

That's a nice pic lululee!

Bagginsbill, thanks for posting that mat file here.  I've long been looking for (and experimenting with) a shader setup that will allow a more simplified fake sss and that can be used in animation.  Obviously, Face_off's script (though, don't get me wrong, I swear by it for still pics) isn't conducive to animation.

This has turned out to be a nice little thread.

Attached Link: Vargas Shader

I noticed you favorited a Vargas style pinup by MungoPark. Did you know he's using my "Vargas" shader? Yes I made one specifically for Vargas. Follow the link.

Then Acadia tried to get photorealism with the Vargas shader, which does not happen of course. Which prompted me to write UBSS for her. And now we've come full circle.

Oh and if you go over and read the Vargas thread, you'll see I said the following:

**I don't like natural womens - I like'em up painted up like whores!
**Just to be clear, that is more of my sarcasm - I neither dislike the natural look, nor do I think wearing makeup makes you a whore. Well maybe a little. See I can't help myself!!!

Attached Link: MungoPark's Gallery

"New Shoes"
"Vintage Pinup" series
What's Up (I think he used it there)

Very cool shader. MungoPark really has done some amazing art with it.
cheerio  lululee

I'd recommend learning to really use basic one to three point lighting while learning to create your own shaders.

I hope you enjoy!  I know she's still bald, and without morphs/magnets; but this is just a WIP, I made to get a friend started!  He has'nt asked me for more, so this scene is knd of on the back burner, but I'll get around to it again eventually.

bagginsbill - I was just tryng to get all of your Skin Threads into one Bookmarks folder:

Matmatic Ultra Basic Skin - for V3

Minitut - Dramatic light and shadows for portraits - NO NOSTRIL GLOW - V3

Vargas Shader - Any Figure

Do you know what happened to this Porcelain Skin link:

http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?forum_id=43&ShowMessage=249751
(Sorry I could'nt make this image smaller.  IT's a direct link from a Rendo thread,  The imge was much smaller in the thread.  I'll bet there was a way for me to addjut the HTML Linking Code, but I do'nt know it.  If anyone would care to add how that might have been done, I'd appreciate it!)

I get a Forum Does'nt Exist error, from RuntimeDNA?

Have I missed any, I thought there was at least one more Jessi post?