Always with the Photoshop. I mean, WTF?

Bryce costs about a hundred dollars (or six bucks if you timed it right).

How much is Photoshop? 

*About a hundred dollars.
*What are you, some kind of dweeby method actor hamming it up as a card counting autistic guy in a bad suit who still easily upstages the twonk dwarf with the bizarro pseudo-religion?! Photoshop is six hundred and forty-nine freaking spondoolicks, you dumb schmuck!!

OK, tongue-in-cheek "Penn and Teller" style presentation aside, surely I'm not alone in thinking that there's a daft dichotomy between a budget / beginner's 3D proggie and the leading edge professional image edting software?

Yet how often do you see the two mentioned together? Loads! It's not the program capability comparison that gets me ('cos Bryce is suitably clever); it's the price difference. How in the name of Zarquon's Singing Fish do so many Bryce users afford the big monster?

And what the hell, there is a program mismatch. Bryce is Mr. Friendly; Photoshop is Mr. Stern. 

Something's deeply wrong here. I want answers. I want controversy. I want a blazing row that's so fundamental that Agentsmith has to pull himself away from his latest metaball-IBL uber-project and actually pay attention to us.

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The Gimp

Project Dogwaffle, ArtWeaver, Pixel Image Editor (including HDRI editing!), Pixarra Twistedbrush.... so many Photoshop alternatives depending on what you want to do.

Did I mention PD Particles?

Attached Link: http://www.aprilgem.com/log/index.php?cat=4

You can't really compare the two programs -- they serve completely different purposes.

And I don't think the dichotomy in price is daft. Photoshop is really a whole lot more capable than even self-named Photoshop "experts" realize, and it caters to a much wider audience -- photographers, digital illustrators, graphic designers, etc. Nearly everything you see on screen or in print probably has been in some way touched by Photoshop, and probably the only reason why people find it so NOT user-friendly is that there is so much that you can do with Photoshop that even just the more obvious features can be overwhelming.

Having worked with Photoshop for 8 years, I consider myself an expert, and I am STILL learning new things about it and new and better ways of doing things with it, even on the older versions. And I'm the sort of person who might attend a Photoshop class and instead of learning something new, end up teaching the teacher and fellow students myself, so that's saying a lot.

I'm including a link -- I've got about five original Photoshop tutorials on it, all of which I've discovered on my own just playing around in the program, and it's just the very tip of the tip of the iceberg. There really is a whole lot you can do with Photoshop, and if I can't do it in Bryce, Photoshop saves my day.

So no ragging on Photoshop. Photoshop's my main squeeze. :)

*"The Gimp"

*OK, the sexual angle. That hadn't occured to me, but all angles warrant investigation.

(sheesh)

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Oh yeah, and there's PaintShop Pro Photo XI which is...
*about a hundred quid
*Lol!

CS3 is $649 (extended $999) if you are buying it for the first time. Upgrades are $199 (extended $349).
I've seen CS2 for $49.99
CS DVDs are probably being used as urinal cakes nowadays, so keep an eye out at the ballpark this summer. You might get lucky.
Or just wait  six months for CS4 to be released, then buy CS3 for $50 or so.

I reckon someone that forks out $99 for Bryce could cough up $50 for CS2.

You can make Gimp + Plugin look like Photoshop.

In my case I was lucky the company I worked for paid for my copy of Photoshop cs2.

But heck all you have to do is wait long enough and the prices will drop to a reasonable level.

It's been a long while since I've paid any attention beyond the tedious essenentials at public urinals. Please elaborate on how I might differentiate between an old Photoshop and a traditional blue brick.

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The old photoshop one will be iridescent.

PhotoPaint (from Corel) is my prefered weapon of choice for my photoworks and any postwork for my 3d works (whether Bryce or C4D).  I used to do graphic arts work for a commercial job printing firm through high school and university, like to keep the hand in with the tools.

photoshop is handy to have..esp if you do postwork.. and man..like aprilgem sas...you can keep using it for years..and still nto know it all..sorta like bryce.

i do find it blooming expensive though.

still have to try corel photopaint. good, incarnadine??

I use an older version of photoshop (aquired when I had more money available than I do nowadays). I also have PSP and Corel photopaint on my HD. I keep them all, because each has features that the others don't.

I have been doing a few mini tuts on clothing texturing over at Daz, and about the only thing I have found that people with  paint programs other than PS cannot duplicate is the layer styles which I use frequently to make trimming and beadwork. And that includes Gimp users.

Attached Link: http://www.aprilgem.com/log/images/2003-enchantedceiling.html

The only thing? Would love to know if the other image editing programs also have Curves, Levels, Color Balance, and all that other stuff in Image Adjust. The filters and the layer styles aren't the only thing I use regularly in Photoshop, and I'm a big believer in layer masks and grouped layers. And when it comes to graphic design, the pen tool is absolutely essential for creating clipping paths that the desktop publishing programs can read. Heck, I've even used the rather obscure History Brush a lot when painting clouds like in the link above. I still have PSP, and I've even upgraded it more often than PS -- mostly because they offered some sweet cheap deals -- but I actually haven't touched PSP in a handful of years because it just doesn't compare to PS. Not in my eyes. Not even a little bit. There is far too much in my experience and usual workflow that the alternatives can NOT duplicate.

Ah, but I only use probably very much less than half of PS capabilities, as do most casual users.

I prefer PS, and use it mainly, but have to try pitch my tuts so that others can duplicate what I am demonstrating.

Totally know what you mean. Every time I do a PS tut, people always ask how they can do it is PSP. I may have to consult with you later when that happens again. :)

It is pretty much equivalent, but the GUI suits my workflow (and temprament) better. At my level of use, I haven't seen any missing features and it integrates well with CorelDraw's DTP capabilities.

You don't need tle latest and greatest photoshop. Personally I use phtoshop 5 LE which is anchient but it is very capable and the way photoshop handles layers is better from my experience. ( I have painter 8 also which is much more recent) Gimp is an option so is artrage and a host of others.

I use PhotoPaint as well.

Yeah, I'm still on v6.0. :)

Say what u want, CS2 still rocks my socks and im sure CS3 Extended will eventually end up rockin my shoes along with it!

Sure there's other programs out there, but photoshop is industry standard, besides, which of the list:

• Project Dogwaffle
  -ArtWeaver
  -Pixel Image Editor (including HDRI editing!)
  -Pixarra Twistedbrush
• gimp

Have all these features?

• HDRI support (incl. filters).
• 3D model import ánd basic rendering.
• Smart objects.
• Smart filters (non-destructive adjustable filters)
• Non-destructive adjustable effects such as bevels, glows, shadows, gradients, strokes, etc.
• Grouped layers.
• Raw photo editor.
• Extensive texturable brushes incl pressure-sensetivity for wacoms.
• Every single layer blending mode photoshop has.
• Video-import.
• Clonebrushing over multiple video-frames.
• Associating files with psd's, updating when associated files change yet leaving the associated files unharmed by changes applied in the PSD file itself.

I recon most dont get half-way...

Just curious, how many of those great features do you use? I know PS is industry standard, and it does a lot of things for everyone. Photography ppl like it, illustrators like it, I like it (using trials) and it's got a lot of features.

Quote - Just curious, how many of those great features do you use? I know PS is industry standard, and it does a lot of things for everyone. Photography ppl like it, illustrators like it, I like it (using trials) and it's got a lot of features.

Of Rayraz's list, I very regularly use the following:

• Smart objects. (When I'm on my Mac and using CS2, that is; on my PC, I'm still on v6.0, which doesn't have Smart Objects)
• Non-destructive adjustable effects such as bevels, glows, shadows, gradients, strokes, etc.
• Grouped layers.
• Extensive texturable brushes incl pressure-sensetivity for wacoms.
• Every single layer blending mode photoshop has.
• Associating files with psd's, updating when associated files change yet leaving the associated files unharmed by changes applied in the PSD file itself.

Hrm, I think I'm gonna try it. I've only been using it to put my name on renders.

I'm an especially big fan of grouped layers and adjustment layers. If I want a bunch of adjustment layers to affect only one layer, I just group them onto that layer. For instance, I might have a person on a layer above a background layer, and if I want to tweak the colors and contrast on just the person and not the background, I do it on an adjustment layer that's grouped to the layer with the person. And since that adjustment layer makes any tweak I make NOT permanent, I can always readjust and re-tweak it a bit later, after getting client feedback, without feeling like I lost the critical information of the original. Makes my life sooooo easy. :)

The Gimp is free, tho..;)

OTOH, I have Photopaint, I just don't know where to start with it. Have had trouble finding tutorials, etc. (I have a Corel book thats...flip flip, 920 pages, but nothing on Photopaint in it)

pakled/D@M, I have used it since version 3. I am currently exploring v12. if I can answer, I will.

• HDRI support (incl. filters). - not sure, does 48 bit RGB, doesn't seem to do actual .hdr file types, but HDRshop is free.
• 3D model import ánd basic rendering. - not sure, haven't tried.
• Smart objects. - what are these?
• Smart filters (non-destructive adjustable filters) - not sure, would this be like adjustment layers/lenses?
• Non-destructive adjustable effects such as bevels, glows, shadows, gradients, strokes, etc. -Yes, these are applied in the object manager and can be individually adjusted/removed.
• Grouped layers. -Yes
• Raw photo editor. - Not sure.  I work most of the time in .tiff. If i have to work with proprietary raw's I usually use my Thumbs plus professional.
• Extensive texturable brushes incl pressure-sensetivity for wacoms. - Gods, yes!
• Every single layer blending mode photoshop has. - most of them.
• Video-import. - Yes
• Clonebrushing over multiple video-frames. - don't know, it's not something I use.
• Associating files with psd's, updating when associated files change yet leaving the associated files unharmed by changes applied in the PSD file itself. - nope (grin)

I also make huge use of the object distortion tools.

Don't get me wrong, PhotoShop is a very powerfull tool but it just doesn't work for me. I also really like the integration with CorelDraw and it's DTP capabilites.

Personallly I love photoshop, but not the price....

I love the open source ideaology so for me it's the GIMP that gets my money (oh whoops it doesn't because it's free).

One thing that does appear to have been missed out here it photoshop elements, £70 for a cut down version of photoshop, I haven't played with it but I'm sure it must be fairly good....

I use fireworks that came with flash and dreamweaver, bought through a school. I noticed that some of it features arenow in the new cs3 marketed as new, fi the live filters.

Since adobe bought macromedia they've been joining the products and working interoperability so CS3 has a web version that includes fireworks, dreamweaver, flash etc..... It looks pretty tempting to me except that it costs twice as much in the UK as it does in the US, really hacks me off that I'm expected to pay double for a downloaded product :cursing:

Quote - Just curious, how many of those great features do you use? I know PS is industry standard, and it does a lot of things for everyone. Photography ppl like it, illustrators like it, I like it (using trials) and it's got a lot of features.

I often use, or will defenitely use in the near future (in the case of CS3 functionalities):

• HDRI support (incl. filters).
• Smart objects.
• Smart filters (non-destructive adjustable filters)
• Non-destructive adjustable effects such as bevels, glows, shadows, gradients, strokes, etc.
• Grouped layers.
• Raw photo editor.
• Extensive texturable brushes incl pressure-sensetivity for wacoms.
• Every single layer blending mode photoshop has.

I'm also thinking this functionality might turn out a totally usefull tool if it works efficiently:

• Associating files with psd's, updating when associated files change yet leaving the associated files unharmed by changes applied in the PSD file itself.

It's indeed pricey, but combined with high bit-depth renders from 3dsmax, and tools such as illustrator, after effects and premiere its invaluable!
I also seriously LOVE the ability to record macro's in photoshop. I can make custom effects that combine like 60 steps of filters and masks and stuff like that, store it as a macro, and apply it to for instance every single frame in a movie using a batch process. save the results to a new set of psd's, which i can then import in after effects or premiere. I probably could put god knows how many effects into after effects itself, but that would drain any computers performance LOL

Quote - [I also seriously LOVE the ability to record macro's in photoshop. I can make custom effects that combine like 60 steps of filters and masks and stuff like that, store it as a macro, and apply it to for instance every single frame in a movie using a batch process. save the results to a new set of psd's, which i can then import in after effects or premiere.

 

That's one thing I miss with GIMP compared to pshop, you have to construct the Script-Fu manually :(

**How in the name of Zarquon's Singing Fish do so many Bryce users afford the big monster?
**-My old boss bought Photoshop for me, for work (v6.0).

Otherwise, I would have been using Gimp all along, and it would have worked just fine for what I needed to squeeze out of it for just Bryce. (level adjust, layers, comps, flares, glow, dof, etc)

My boss bought it :-) But if he hadn't i'd pay it from my months savings lucky me doesnt have to pay rent yet! (yet.... just u wait till i found a nice place! woot!)

My first and very own Photoshop (Photoshop 5 LE, which has limited features) came to me FREE when I bought my first Wacom pen and tablet (for $99). But I always had access to a full, most recent version of Photoshop at the day jobs because I was in the art department of whatever companies where I worked. Then in 2000, my day job at the time had me work from home, so I managed to get v6.0 through them, no cost to me. And in December 2006, I actually, finally bought my very first full version with my very own money when I purchased the Creative Suite 2.0 for my new Mac. Still paying for it on the credit card, though, with money I earn doing book cover art with my older version of Photoshop.

Anyway ... that's how THIS Bryce user can afford the big monster. ;)

And I'm still using PSP veraion 8.1.  It has everything I need .... or at least that I think I need.  There's probably stuff out there I need, but I just don't know that I need it because I've never had it.  Or ... something like that.

Nah, I really think that just about any of the major inexpensive 2D editors or the free one(s) will do probably everything anyone would need as far as being a compliment to a rendering program.

Paint Shop Pro
Corel Draw
Ulead Photoimpact
Dogwaffle
Gimp
Etc.

I got to thinking about AS' question and came to the conclusion that I got my original version of PS at about the same time as I was able to visit the local computer shop to buy a new mouse and came back with a new PC.

Nowadays I would have to budget to buy a new mouse. :lol:

And I still stand by what I said earlier, layer styles are a must have for me, and unique to PS I think.

I got the cut down version free with my cannon camera and luckily it wasn't in the car when everything else was stolen, otherwise it's here at college on a couple of the machines, but I mostly use PaintShop and the seemless feature on that.  With lots of cloning afterwards to get rid of the nasty diamond patterning in the image.

That's why I'd like to find out about the Offset feature in PhotoShop as soon as possible so that I at least know how to use it - if I need it in the job I hope to get... really soon after college.

I'll have to check and see if Offset is available in Elements... probably not.

Offset is super easy. (Obviously this is coming from the post about seamless texturing)

You activate the Offset filter (Filter>Other>Offset)

Whatver size your image texture is, you just type into the fields half your actual size. In this case the image texture is 1024 x 1024, so my offset size is 512 & 512, then you hit "Okay". 

As you can see in the screenshot, the offset puts the outer edges together (in the middle). You would then go in and blend those edges together (with the Clone Stamp and/or the Heal tool) and when you have them just right, do the Offset again, re-check, Offset again, recheck. When you can see no evidence of any abrupt edges, you have a seamless texture. ;o)

The last time I looked PS was the wrong side of $1100 OZ DOLLARS. I brought Paint Shop Pro 8 for $90. Disc only. Who uses manuals?LOL. 

It is designed to take ALL PS plug-ins. 

At 95% of the power and 8% of the cost, it seemed like a no brainer to me.

I've said it before, GIMP, PSPI plugin allows it to run photoshop plugins and de weirdifier to sort out windowing (if you can't get your head around the disparate windows.....

cost 0........

Yup, Gimp goodness, all for free.

Yaaaaay!  Elements has Offset!