Hi - in one of my first posts over at the daz3d forums, I had asked "why would anyone use D|S when Poser 7's much better?" and it looks like it was deleted by a moderator... does anyone know the guidelines on that?

I was just asking, why would anyone use D|S when Poser's much better?  I just wanted to get some feedback from the community over there.. eg maybe there's some features in D|S I've overlooked, or something...   so far I think poser's a much superior platform.. feedback?

thx!

Here's my post from there..

Hi, I'm new to rendering, and after trying D|S, which I'm glad I did, got me into this hobby in the first place, I bought Poser 7, which is 1000% better than D|S...

Does anyone who's used both programs, say they'd ever use D|S again? Why? Poser offers animation, integrated face mapping, and is a much more complete, professional platform than D|S...

btw, if you have children, and use it for noncommercial uses, you can get Poser 7 for half price via academic discount, at academicsuperstore.com and others that sell academic software, if price is an issue.

Poser 7 is great. D|S is just substandard in all ways that count... too bad, because I took days to learn D|S before buying poser, and I've never looked back...

others? input? I'm very grateful for being able to try out a program like D|S so inexpensively, but it's like using notepad.exe vs microsoft word, kind of analogy... and since you can get P7 for less than $135 w/academic discount, why isn't everyone using Poser 7?

http://www.academicsuperstore.com/market/marketdisp.html?PartNo=775548&qk_srch=poser+7
http://www.campustech.com/c/campust/23552.html?id=fMqcoHqa&mv_pc=75
etc

curious... thanks for your replies..!

**graphicsguy - I'm drifting to sleep here (it's 2-15 am) so I'm sorry I can't give you a full answer. I will say though that although in the main Poser 7 is a superior program, saying so over at Daz will not go down well, remember who Daz3D are!

Just to add, If your post was deleted for the reason you think it is then we can say goodbye to freedom of speech. Wait a minute, did we really have that anyway!**

I have a feeling it's not so much that you were being positive about Poser, more that you were trashing D|S in the process.  

Now, call me old fashioned if you will but if I'd invited you into my house, given you something for nothing, then you proceded to run it down in favour of something you'd paid infinitely more for (remembering that anything versus nothing is infinitely more), I'd be rather peeved, too.  In fact, me being me, I'd more than likely throw you out of the house.

As for why I'm not using P7, well, I can't afford it.

I've read your post at DAZ.
But you posted it  at "DAZ|Studio Freepozitory".
And I think it's a wrong place for that matter.

I see 2 posts of that.. not deleted.

Intrigued to see an unbiased comparison of Poser 7 and DAZ Studio.   I think that you can expect a counter-blast, any time now, from a character who takes any criticism of DAZ very personally.   

Ok, thanks.  The first one was deleted, so I re-posted it, and it looks like it stuck.  I certainly didn't mean to offend, eg I've spent hundreds of dollars at Daz, and here too, and RDNA and CP, and so as a person new to rendering, I was just interested in getting a dialogue started, to help D|S users who were frustrated (apparently at a hyperion bar set, having no textures in D|S, but did in P7)..

So since I saw many users being frustrated at the shortcomings of D|S, I thought I'd try and be helpful by recommending the better program, which is P7...not at the expense of D|S, which is certainly "cute", but rather to help them solve their problems by getting the superior platform.

Kind of like if you saw a bunch of Win98 users in a forum, today, talking about how limited the o/s was, and I came along and said "hey try win2k or xp instead, it's better"...

The more open, candid dialogue we have about things, the better we are.  I am not a big fan of people deleting honest, open posts in forums, or in trying to censor things, as long as they're not offensive/derogatory, which my posts weren't, I believe.  When people delete my posts I tend to avoid spending money at their sites, and recommend the same to others.    Overall it hasn't been a problem, I was just curious as to why this happened over there, and I didn't get an answer from their mods.  

I've adminned 7 forums myself, so I appreciate the need to be sensitive and professional with your users, and respect your customers.

Thanks for the insights!

Yea, and Stormchaser.  Not even appropriate.  DAZ may have their own politics but I've seen plenty of posts over in the DAZ forums dissing Studio and singing the praises of Poser.  All those posts are still there as far as I'm aware. Hell I just gave DAZ hell for their new site and I was not plesant about it but my post is still there too.  I may be a Studio fan myself but I'm certainly no ass kisser!!  I just think the last line of your statement you made was out of line!!

**I think that you can expect a counter-blast, any time now, from a character who takes any criticism of DAZ very personally. **

See?

Strategically, the win-win for all this would be for Daz to joint-venture with efrontier, and have them reposition D|S as a "poser lite", with an upsell and aff commisshes to the users to try and get them to upgrade to P7.  What a brilliant idea.

Heck what do I know?  I've made millions online...  (really).  I'll tiptoe carefully and be pc from now on.  Or just leave the forums.  More likely.  Thanks for all your comments, it helps a bit.  It's just a personal peeve of mine, to have my posts deleted on forums... thankfully rare, but when it happens, the world knows about it.  I'm not a quiet person. 

I guess 7/7/07 wasn't a good day for freedom of speech.  sigh.

RAMWolff - Did you really think for one moment my comment was serious, too bad when posting things don't come across the right way. I guess sarcasm doesn't work at this time of the morning.

It's cool then but sheesh, like this place doesn't have it's fair share of unpopluar politics. 

Have a wonderful morning!!

RAMWolff - Actually this little debate has woken me up somewhat. I should have gone to bed earlier, I've got to be up to walk the dog in four hours!

Well, hopefully you will catch up with the sleep sometime..  I spent 5 days on a fast I just finished up on Thursday night.  No sleeping pills either.  With my HIV my meds really screwed up my natural sleep cycle so I ended up with sleeping pills, mild one's but addictive.  So not only was I fasting I was hardly sleeping at all either during this time. 

Still managed to go the gym twice, meditate, beta test for Connie who's doing a fabulous freebie for Apollo and did a freebie pack for a Poser only product that I really dug and wanted the settings for Studio.  48 MAT poses but it's done and I love it!  It was really fun actually!! 

Aside from that I'm back to my old self.  Back on the sleeping pills but minute doses and eating really healthy and loving life.   

Stay positive!!

I dunno graphicsguy... On one hand you claim you're new to rendering and all this, then you make a claim that just after merely trying things out, you decided one software is better then the other. I can totally see that could peeve a number of people.

You could have phrased this in a much more neutral way, like, 
Hi, I'm new to this, and I've tried DS, and Poser, and Poser appeals tyo me more at this time...
and then say, could someone point me to a good discussion on comparison between the two, as I'm undecided which one I want to use.

That would be much more open and honest dialog, then someone rather new to both software professing they have the experience or knowledge to decide which one is better.
For one, you have to specify better in what... I've used both software, and there are things in which DS id better then Poser, and others where Poser does better then DS.

You can't expect open, honest and objective dialog when you jump in with prejudicial and authoritative sounding statements right off the bat.

Prejudicial, meaning you already decided one is better then the other, which doiesn't really allow for much of a discussion, unless one has a burning desire to jump in and start butting heads, which is the tone your subject line sets.
Authoritative, meaning, you seem to already know which is better, and by the tone of your title, one may want to brace themselves for an unpleasant discussion.

Perhaps you didn't quite realize just how confrontational just your subject line came across. My first thought looking at it was, uh-oh, I better put my flame retardant suit on before getting into this one.

Seeing how you got worried that your post was removed, when it didn't stick, tells me that deep down inside you are anticipating confrontation.

RAMWolff - I guess all this Poser/DS stuff takes your mind off things, I know it does me. Glad to hear you can be positive during such a tough period.

Wolff, fasting's supposed to be very good, re cleansing.. and vegetable juicing's very very healthy too, eg wheatgrass and greens etc... I do that, it makes a big difference... best wishes with it, sounds like you're doing the right things!    Staying positive is key.  There's some great threads about all of that over at tonyrobbins.com's community forum...

Connie, yes you make a lot of good points, it's just my style to be brash and confrontational and outspoken... I'm not very diplomatic or softspoken... though that would serve me well.  Thanks for sharing the perspective, points well taken.  I'm used to leading and being listened to.. but not in the render community.. so I'll tread carefully ... thanks for the candid comments. 

And you are correct, I am well known for stirring the pot and getting some of the most widely-read and most posted to threads started, in other forums for different topics.. I have for years, since the wildcat bbses (for those as old as I am who remember such things)..  Though that wasn't my intention here... I just wanted to ask why people using the 'basic' s/w like D|S haven't upgraded to P7, to help encourage them to get better software, for their sake.  No big deal.

Anyways, no biggie.  Let's let it go.

Thanks for the positive words of encouragement GraphicsGuy!  Don't sweat a misunderstanding but you have to realize folks DO take dissing vewy vewy sewiously!! LOL 

Both of these communities are really some of the best out there.  Folks are always willing to help.  If you had issues or questions about Studio all you have to do is ask in the DAZ Studio Discussion forum at DAZ and you will be helped!   

TRUST me there are things about Poser I wish Studio had and vice versa, as Connie girl has pointed out.  I'm so there with her on those points but it's the way it is.  You have to pick your poisen, so to speak.  Which rendering engine do you prefer, which is faster, which is going to be more intuitive to you in the long run, which interface do you prefer and the list goes on and on.  I have upgraded EVERY time with Poser over the last 3 versions and still have hopes that eF is going to give us more interface options and natively allow us to unplug rooms we don't use or want plugged in.  Perhaps in version 8 this will come to pass.... who knows.  But by then Studio will be even more established and it's dynamic cloth will be too and more folks will be more curious.  Heck there is even a Material Room plugin being developed.  Yup and honest to goodness Material Room with math nodes and all that.  I have the Alpha and it's just too soon for me to really get into it.  I tried to use it but it's just too geeky for me to make heads or tails of it and NO documentation yet either.  It's all being worked on but it's coming as well. 

All the best and have fun!!

*You can't expect open, honest and objective dialog when you jump in with prejudicial and authoritative sounding statements right off the bat.
*Ermm...  Why not?

Well, first off, let me say that I am not a D|S user.

To post what you did, where you did could easily be construed as inflammatory. Just because people were complaining about D|S doesn't mean they were primed for someone to lead them all to Poser.

Stick around, there are plenty of die hard Poser users who rant about Poser's inadequacies, real or perceived. They're not looking for someone to jump in and lead them all to Studio Max. And from what you say they were frustrated about... You were pitching to dyed in the wool D|S users that aren't frustrated with DAZ studio, they're frustrated that Merchants aren't supporting DAZ Studio-- the program that they love.

DAZ is a very canny marketing machine, they give away a limited program, with the knowledge that they'll secure a user base for content. They sell modules and add-ons for that free limited program, that frankly, will probably in the near future equal, if not surpass Poser.

I'm not surprised that your post was not deleted. DAZ has a very, very supportive user base. They may complain about DAZ-- the same way you might complain about a member of your family-- but they'll take it very poorly if someone they perceive to be an outsider does. They might even label you a troll.

""You could have phrased this in a much more neutral way, like, 
Hi, I'm new to this, and I've tried DS, and Poser, and Poser appeals tyo me more at this time...
and then say, could someone point me to a good discussion on comparison between the two, as I'm undecided which one I want to use.""

My guess is that he didn't say that, because, well - it's not what he meant.  He didn't appear undecided to me, rather - he seemed curious as to why others would go with a software that he had found to be far inferior.  His findings might not be as educated as some would hope - but that's up to the individual to decide how much experience they need with something to say whether they like it or not.  

I'm another person who doesn't need much time with a program to decide it sucks.  Same for deciding I love it.  

Anyway I'm another blunt person so maybe it made more sense to me.  Pussy footing (no pun intended : p) - just does not work for me.  Maybe there is a fine line between honest and to the point vs confrontational.

Uh, kalon, they did!!  I was in the Studio discussion: Hyperion Bar big disappointment for D|S users and it seems our friend here was all over the place trying to edumacate us on how fabulous Poser is compared to Studio!! LOL  One of the members posted a very nice picture of a troll.... LOL!!  Don't mess with him, Questor can be quite harsh when he needs to be in a very appropriate manner too!!

Oh, no, he roused Questor!!

" I'm not surprised that your post was not deleted."   I think it was deleted, wasn't it?   Isn't that the point?

I don't think I agree with jjroland all that often, but she has hit the nail right on the head, this time.

Excellent points kkalon and jjroland.. thanks!  the most accurate comment is yours, where you said "he seemed curious as to why others would go with a software that he had found to be far inferior."..

and I am extraordinarily blunt and confrontational by nature, very aggressive and not diplomatic.  then again that's part of my entrepreneurial nature... I am a LOT like Donald Trump in personality, very brash, aggressive, usually correct, but sometimes speak before thinking... ah well.

your comments are all very well taken, and I appreciate them.. I was just trying to figure out why on earth anyone would use something that seems more like a shareware program than a professional one... heck if nothing else, this has been a good education re getting "responses from the user base"! 

I like to study how a market niche reacts and responds to various stimuli, and reading posts is a great way to get a pulse, quickly, of the community's dominant values and beliefs.  

great points kalon about the marketing process via modules and content integration and subscription/continuity base... they have solid content and a great way of delivering it, and I like their company very much, as I do the other vendor storefront companies I've bought so much from lately...well this has certainly been interesting!

thanks all...

Quote - I think it was deleted, wasn't it?   Isn't that the point?

I don't think I agree with jjroland all that often, but she has hit the nail right on the head, this time.

No, his post was not deleted. He currently has three related posts going on at DAZ, the first dropped into a discussion in the D|S forum, the second (the one he reposted because it didn't stick) in the D|S Freepository and the last, similar to the one here, in The Commons.

Quote - **graphicsguy - I'm drifting to sleep here (it's 2-15 am) so I'm sorry I can't give you a full answer. I will say though that although in the main Poser 7 is a superior program, saying so over at Daz will not go down well, remember who Daz3D are!

Just to add, If your post was deleted for the reason you think it is then we can say goodbye to freedom of speech. Wait a minute, did we really have that anyway!**

Speaking of freedom of speech... Did Daz take over running the country?
Sheesh, stuff that happens when I don't log on for half a day!
[ducking and running]

""Speaking of freedom of speech... Did Daz take over running the country?""

lol

Have you ever used D/S with Bryce 6? If not you don't no what you're missing.

dogor,

Quote - *You can't expect open, honest and objective dialog when you jump in with prejudicial and authoritative sounding statements right off the bat.*Ermm...  Why not?

 
Oh, shush up and listen to me, ya dingbat!  ;)

[I escalated this a notch for illustration purposes. The principle stay sthe same. Now if that was meant seriously, would YOU want or expect an open, honest and objective dialog with me? Somehow, I don't think so. I think you would be more likely to wonder about my disposition, or go, woot, whatzzup with her!]

*Connie, yes you make a lot of good points, it's just my style to be brash and confrontational and outspoken... I'm not very diplomatic or softspoken... though that would serve me well.  Thanks for sharing the perspective, points well taken.  I'm used to leading and being listened to.. *
I hear ya.. I used to be of that opinion and disposition myself...  Then I discovered use for this gadget:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1286310

Quote -
Anyway I'm another blunt person so maybe it made more sense to me.  Pussy footing (no pun intended : p) - just does not work for me.  Maybe there is a fine line between honest and to the point vs confrontational.

Oh, I hear ya! I can ve very blunt and confrontational myself, but with that, when I get like that, and it ends up not well received, I know it's because of my being blunt and opinionated and perhaps pushy, and not because someone or something is out to get me, or out to limit my rights, or step on my freedom of speech...

I don't insist on being blunt, and then when people get ticked off at me on occasion, or two, or three, act all surprized and infringed upon. I know that bluntness and opinionatedness often doesn't go over very well.

Not that I learned how to use it judiciously yet... maybe in my next life.

There's a difference between being blunt and opinionated and looking to start a fight.

He got short-shrift in the two DAZ|Studio Forums, but he seems to have gotten the fight he was looking for in the commons.

Quote - ""Speaking of freedom of speech... Did Daz take over running the country?""
lol

It cracks me up when people invoke 'freedom of speech' in forums, because 'freedom of speech', at least in US only protects us from government prosecution. 
Somehow people take that and expand on it, thinking it means one can way what they want, where and when they want, without consequences. No such thing. Sometimes bluntness can get one a punch in a face. (literally and/or metaphorically)

i like that gadget... very timely!   often i need that one i think...

Quote - There's a difference between being blunt and opinionated and looking to start a fight. > Quote -  

Yeah, I peeked over in the DAZ forums, and you're right.

""It cracks me up when people invoke 'freedom of speech' in forums""

Yup me too.  That one is right up there with "It's a free country".  Mmmm hmm...(more dot dot dots).

or you could take an alternative. I don't believe any single program is all things to all people, but consider them to be means to an end. It's seldom that I use less than 4 programs to make a pic (Wings, Poser, Bryce, and the Gimp), and on the last one, threw in 2 more to boot...;)

To a hammer, every problem looks like a nail..;)

It's like going to a sports bar in Chicago, and explaining that the Yankees are much better than the Cubbies...probably true, but won't win you any free drinks..;)

I've had posts dissapear every now and again; can't tell if they were deleted, but just blame the server instead..;)

""It's like going to a sports bar in Chicago, and explaining that the Yankees are much better than the Cubbies...probably true, but won't win you any free drinks..;)""

Hey now!  No need to get vulgar : p

*"Would YOU want or expect an open, honest and objective dialog with me?"

Since you come across as an authentic resident of Bedlam, no, frankly.

It would be hard for me, given the wording of the original post, not to think it was a trolling thread, espescially in the context of being posted on the Daz boards. :) If you really just wanted an honest pros and cons, to see if you were missing anything, that was probably not the most courteous or productive way to do so!

As far as Daz, D|S and Poser, I'll only have a problem with Daz if they start to "gimp" content with a lot of new features only supported by D|S.

I really wish they would get over what ever problems they had in the past and find a way to have a better relationship with E Frontier. The Daz figures are still pretty much the standard in the community, it would be better for everyone if the two companies could innovate together for the benefit of both (and of course the rest of us)!

D|S made sense for Daz as an insurance policy when the future of Poser was in doubt. It still makes sense in that regard and of course as a lower cost alternative to Poser for those who want to get their feet wet with Daz content. I had hoped D|S might also have been leveraged as a more robust cross application platform, to allow better use of Poser content in higher end 3D packages, but that seems to have fallen far short of it's potential. However, to try to move it towards being a direct competitor or replacement to Poser, using compatability with it's content as a differentiation point, is something I do NOT want to see down the road.

Looking at E frontier, the attempt to establish it's own default figures as the community standard has also been largely a failure. Options are nice, but (no offense to RDNA) I just don't find the new figures to be up to par.

It seems like a lot of wasted effort on both sides. Competition is nice when it breeds innovation, but I don't feel we've seen any real innovation from either company.

Quote - Hi - in one of my first posts over at the daz3d forums, I had asked "why would anyone use D|S when Poser 7's much better?" and it looks like it was deleted by a moderator... does anyone know the guidelines on that?

Regardless of what you might think, the title alone is a classic troll format and deserved to be closed/deleted.  Beat your chest about the injustice all you like, but basically don't shit where you eat (don't go to the DAZ forum and say Buy Competitor's Product Instead).

Incidentally:
"This kind of attack post is uncalled for. Mods, please delete this user. I've reported your post to the admins. Attacking me on forums is an unwise mistake."

On forums I've moderated in the past, you'd have got a week or so ban for posting bullshit like that.

And on forums I've moderated in the past, I'd delete your account for posting what you just have as well.  I don't appreciate attack posts, pjz and have reported you to the mods here.

Gosh, I hope you're not actually crying or anything like that.  For someone who brags about making millions, brags about how openly abrasive you are and the like, you sure have a very weak helping of self-esteem.

I should point out this thread is itself a troll thread, and really ought to be locked. 

Graphicsguy--

The Poser/D|S community is a small one. While some people may post more frequently at one site, that doesn't mean that they don't browse the others.

Your posts at DAZ -- available for all to see -- were instigatory and intended to enflame. They also give every appearance of being premeditated. That is trolling. And yet, when your behavior is identified, at DAZ or here, you start calling for the Mods.

I found it curious (and confusing) that while you posted at DAZ under the name Renderguy, you were quoted under the name of Graphicsken. Perhaps that's a forum glitch at DAZ, or perhaps, you're on your second identity at DAZ. I don't know, and I don't much care.

To be blunt, since I see that is the manner of speech you prefer, if it was your intent to establish yourself at Rendo, then provoke a fight at DAZ rallying your new found allies to support you-- I believe you will find that you have failed.

Point of order:
There is a huge difference between having his post get a lynch mob response -- that's democracy in action -- and being deleted by the PTB who own D|S (which it may or may not have been; I'm not clear about that now). If I start bashing some incompetent, corrupt American regime (hypothetical, of course) on a street corner, I'd be foolish to expect no adversarial responses. But I'd wonder where my country went if I got hustled off to some Cuban prison by government goons. It can't happen here, of course.

I think that's the point, really. Even Amazon "disappears" posts that aren't in its best interests financially. It's happened to me and I've talked with others who have experienced it as well. But by doing so, they undermine their own credibility as a "community." That is not how "communities" work; it's how feudal kingdoms, totalitarian states, and American companies work.

M

except the posts were not deleted.

take a closer look and you'll see at least 3 posts all the same, different topic headers, but the same text.

the initial post was deleted, so I reposted it.  which in retrospect was probably not a good idea.

it's not like I attacked d|s's software, I just said 'since p7 is so inexpensive, and has more features, why doesn't everyone use that instead?"  it was not intended to escalate nor to provoke the responses it did.. obviously I misread the community's feelings about d|s and should have asked about the differences in a more "curious" vs "p7 is better" type of tone.

anyways, what I find interesting is why such a mundane topic/post provoked such a heated response, that's interesting at least.

GG: I haven't seen any of this firsthand, because I hardly ever go to DAZ forums. But your initial description of your post said you asked why, "since D|S is so inferior." I can see why that got the post deleted, if it did. That is by no means as innocuous as "P7 is inexpensive and has more features." (And, BTW, I'm not sure I'd agree with you, given the number of "features" in P7 that are offset by workflow annihilating bugs.) In any case, I'm pleased to see that DAZ apparently did not delete the post, or at least not the followup. In their defense, I have often thought I posted something only to realize later that I hit Preview and then moved on, multitasking my heart out, and closed my browser without following through.

At least once, I assumed a post had been deleted when this was the real cause, and I did exactly this on another forum (one that does delete posts, as a matter of fact, and primarily in service of their product rep), a few hours ago, only to discover that my post had been "deleted" only a few minutes after I thought I had posted it. No way the PTB found it that quickly. Thinking through the last few minutes, I realized I had gotten ahead of myself and failed to it Submit before closing the tab.

I'm last person to defend DAZ, you may discover eventually, but they don't sound guilty in this case.

M

Ideally what I'd prefer seeing then a DS/Poser merging, is Poser/Game engine merging.. things liek the new farcry editor Stonemason was talking about are astounding, and if either EF or Daz would partner with that tech, and make it possible to use that game render engine with poser content, I'd be all over it.

That would give us Vue like environmentals, and real time animation abilities. Yeah there would be some loss in render quality I'm sure, but maybe they could toss the render engine in there as well, so higher quality renders.

First company that does that WILL own the Poser application market.