Quote - You know Pengi works for DAZ right?

Just makin' sure.

erm.. no. he used to, but has not for about a year now.

Quote - *People seem to feel they are entitled to more than they are willing to legitimately pay for.
*I don't think so..... I totally agree with Penguinisto. I can upgrade soon to Carrara 6 for much less then I can upgrade to for Poser..... Yet it looks like I'm going to get all the features P7 offers and most of the features P7 pro offers and even more. Judging from the price EF is charging me for the P7 upgdate, I'm hardly get worth what I pay for. Others give me more and charge less.

The only problem I have is that I like Poser the best and I'll stick to it, but it sure isn't the best value for money anymore, not by far.

Well, since we don't know what the upgrade price is for P7 owners who want to get P7Pro, no one can say anything about 'fairness' on upgrade pricing. And there is one huge point being blythely ignored in the DAZ apps bonanza; they are not making their money on that code. It's content that powers the DAZ machine.....and with the current MCF in copyright laws, all it will take is one significant goof and DS, Bryce, Hex, Cararra, Mimic, etc, will vanish into the maw of litigation. None of those apps are selling well enough to fund their own survival; DAZ would be crowing if they were. It's the naked Vickeys and Mikeys that rescued Mimic and Bryce from oblivion. Since Hex and Cararra were bought from the creating company, they had to have been in financial trouble. Poser is making it from the application; which is impressive in the current environment. And folks need to keep in mind that the few features they mention for 7Pro may not be all there is. One of the things in that survey was weightmapping....which would go a long way towards remedying the issues with the current rigging system. And it is the kind of thing that could be retrofitted to all the previous models ever made, if someone so decided. I'll wait and see what the finished product is like before I spaz too badly one way or the other....but so far it looks promising (remember, the next logical step is bumping the modules up to 64 bits...which would make both cloth and hair a bit more robust if they benefited from the code update).

I was talking about the P7 upgrade price, not the P7 Pro upgrade price...... EF is charging more for the P7 'hobby' upgrade price then DAz will ask for upgrading to C6 and yet you even get most that Pro has to offer with it.

erm... you got proof on that? as in what the C6 upgrade price is? can you link us? (also what the C6 non upgrade price is? and without PC pricing?)

Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/catmain/-/?cat=331

It's also interesting to nocite that at the moment C5Pro is $274 and once again this is including the C6Pro upgrade. It's safe to say that P7 Pro will cost more then P7 and for sure a bit more then $274, so using C6Pro gives you much more power for much less money.

All prices quoted are current sale price, without PC pricing, those are even less. Whichever way I look at it, EF is simply out-priced a lot and is asking way to much for what they offer. Still, imo P7 simply should have included all that P7 Pro will offer, EXCLUDED network rendering and Quidam, but still asking the P7 upgrade price for it. Network Rendering and Quidam could have been offfered as additions. EF is simply asking too much for their upgrades and offering too little for what they ask.

Personally, I would think there is a big difference between Pro/Industry and Hobbyist software. Go buy a car or a truck and ask the dealer what the differences are between a comercial vehicle warranty and a standard family car or truck warranty. Consider that if you are using it for a comercial project you're going to want support in the event you have a problem because it costs you money every minute when the software crashes. On the other hand think about a Hobbyist. You can be left to hang out in the wind until the next update or Service Release. With a Pro version comes more responcibility. It basically says we're now ready to take on a work load and we have the product support to back our product in the event your multi-million dollar project gets bogged down in software related issues. If that same place says to e frontier, I only own the hobby version, well maybe it's time to upgrade to the Pro Version. I'm sure they need some CYA at e frontier for comercial usage of Poser and only a Pro version can fit the bill. It's not just about the enhancements. There's a lot more to it than that I'm sure.

dogor,

I note thats a sale price, whats the full price? ah see. $249 (please be more accurate ;) )

The P7 upgrade price was more then that.....

and the P7 upgrade price was $129. $5 difference. accuracy again please.

interesting.
thank you for your input.

Penguinisto wrote:
"If DAZ |Studio does indeed come out with direct competition for either Dynamic feature (esp. cloth) --and it doesn't suck-- Poser is screwed."

Already started. C6 dynamic hair and look what you can do with it. Poser hair is toast now unless ef does some new coding. Dynamic cloth being worked on as we speak. I wonder how much better that will be.

I am a big poser fan but I have C5pro. I will upgrade to C6pro. I am having a hard time to justify support for poser. Will poser7pro work better with my Vue6.5I? Don't really see that it will make any difference there, give me one real answer why I should upgrade any version of poser anymore. Price wise, for me, Carrara.

I started with poser and have supported it through thick and thin, from p4 and up. Now. I'm not so sure anymore. P7 is OK but it still needs a few more SR's.

http://www.euqfiz.com.br/videos/dancetina.mov

Quote -

Hmm.... GMC releases a new improved  hi tech trailer boat  hitch for the existing Yukon Denali  for $300 USD

 WAIT!! I already have a Boat and a Yukon Denali that I bought 18 months ago
knowing full well it had the old standard trailer hitch.

GMC has done me a grave INJUSTICE by adding an improved trailer hitch
that  I GRATUITOUSLY ASSERT "should " have been included with the Yukon denali
I was Suckerd into buying 18 months ago.

Amazing!!  only in the world of poser does such convaluted "logic exist

It's more like they offer you a regular Denali and a Pro Denali, the only difference is the regular one you have to pedal while the Pro one has an engine.

So with all the bugs and faults in poser 7 they have the time to do a PRO version, so either they quick jobbed patches so they could concentrate on pro, or 2.1 is last patch until pro is out.
Now Victoria lee i have been asked by 1 hacker who hunts down dodgy sites and 3 programmers about a post of yours to my complaint about poser 7.
They have read the post and see how you popped off at me to complain about 7 but they want to no.
1... You stated that you have never had any problems with poser in any incantation or even vue, HOW????? as i would love to no and so would they.
See for every complaint about a bug in a program on renderosity message boards you get some people shout  down the complainers, or say they have never had any problems.
Rederosity has got a nasty reputation now for pulling posts or people shouting them down, no wounder lots people don't post on message boards here.
I wont tell you the software house but at a function 1 of the suits said to another bod we love most message boards, as whenever someone complains our friends jump to our defense.
Now how many people will boycott p7 pro until they allow some people to test it free on their 64 bit machines and report on message boards if it works or bugged.
So no one has made a complaint about how the hell they can work on a pro version while still not fixing faults in 7, I WILL???  fix the bloody faults in p7 before you start working on another bloody version of program, now knowing my luck the same peeps will start screaming at me again for making a complaint.
I look forward to someone buying pro finding some bugs report it on renderosity then get the usual crowd scream abuse at them.

oh shut up you shouty person and get laid.

Attached Link: Dynamic Hair animation

IT's all Bush's fault! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Quote - You know Pengi works for DAZ right?

Just makin' sure.

Psst! DAZ don't write my paychecks. (I haven't worked for DAZ since late 2005. I also don't live in Utah anymore). > Quote - Penguinisto wrote:

"If DAZ |Studio does indeed come out with direct competition for either Dynamic feature (esp. cloth) --and it doesn't suck-- Poser is screwed."

Already started. C6 dynamic hair and look what you can do with it. Poser hair is toast now unless ef does some new coding. Dynamic cloth being worked on as we speak. I wonder how much better that will be.

Oops - forgot about Anything Grows.

Quote - See for every complaint about a bug in a program on renderosity message boards you get some people shout  down the complainers, or say they have never had any problems.

if no one can reproduce your problem, they can't fix it.

Lemme know when it's available for 64 bit LINUX. Cause that's the only 64 bit OS that will ever run on my PC hardware. (Unless OS X 64bit is avilable for non Mac Hardware.)

Quote - Lemme know when it's available for 64 bit LINUX. Cause that's the only 64 bit OS that will ever run on my PC hardware. (Unless OS X 64bit is avilable for non Mac Hardware.)

Well, it is, but it takes a bit of work. Just google for "OSX x86" /P

That's not Anything Grows or they have advanced it into something new and slid it into C6. Did you look at the hair animation? Poser can't do that.

Sorry Khai but it's obvious you don't want to listen to reason..... only see what you want to see and even insult people telling them to shut up and worse.

I thought the last part was a great idea. I notice you didn't dis the last part either. Unless getting laid is what you consider worse. Good advice. Go figure?

Tyger most people have same problems or 1 or 2 may get something else, now after install patch 2.1 had probs with p6 from p7 patch.
Reinstalled windows and put p6 back on with 3rd patch and p7 no patch, p6 runs fast though p7 has same probs without patches but set up scene in p6.
Now graphics cards can affect some programs and you have to go into the cards settings, just like on my p4 2.6 with ati 256 mg 1 gb 2100 can run Rome total war no probs.
But on my dual core amd 4200 with galaxy 7600gs and 1 gb 4200 program ran slow as buggery even with in game all options taken to low, so with the higher end nvidia cards a right buggery.
I had to go into the graphic cards settings and didn't have add rome exe was their all ready and i had to change cards settings for game by turning every thing off, and game runs faster.
Some problems can be caused by a graphics card but most are the fault of the programers and 1 thing software houses hate is if their was bad press about thier program.
Just imagine if at Olympics or world cup a competitor talking in front of 5 billion people said e-frontier and poser 7 bugged crap, e-frontier would have to release a statement as they would panic like crazy, the 1 thing software hoses fear is a major Internet campaign against any of their goods if faulty.
Though Microsoft it never harms them as if the zlob Trojan or another nasty program hits through I.E 7 and screws your registry, you either have to manually clean the registry or purchase a 3rd party program to do it.
Microsoft don't even bother to release a fix for you, just like 1 our pc magazines pointed out a security firm detected a hack couple hours after it hit web that exploited I.E 7, Microsoft were warned but as usual they took 8 days to release a fix.
I never use I.E unless having to access microsoft updates as i use FireFox only.

Poser 7 runs slower for two reasons:

1. multiple undos.. it has to stare every change you make, and there a slight hesitation there, especially for big changes. Turn it off if you like, and and it'll speed back up, but you'll of course loose one of the most requested poser features over the last several years.

2. Opengl Advanced lighting, proceedural texture, and transparency previews. Poser is now calculating the new light types, your proceedurals textures, and transparency mapping  for preview display in opengl. Slows opengl down for sure.. BUT opengl looks good enough in a lot of cases where you really don't even need to render for some animations! So instead of rendering and waiting hours for a 60 frame animation, it's almost instantanious, and saves out in a minute or so!

Pretty dang amazing, if you ask me, and again, one of the BIG requested features over the last few years.

I went back to p5 to test something, and thought something was broken, because of the preview display, and it just turned out I was so used to all the new stuff, I forgot how primitive the older versions looked.

And on a fast machine, with a recent video card, preview is still pretty fast.. and multiple preview display types are avasilable for those big multiple figure scenes.

You want new features, there has to be SOME cost somwhere in execution speed. Heck, look at Lightwave's modeler preview.. a $900 program, and one millenium figure mesh.. add textures and transmaps, and watch it slow down more then P7.. and look no where NEAR as nice! And that's in a "pro" MUCH more expensive program.

As I said before, consumers wasnd it ALL, want it NOW, and want it FREE, and want to run it on outdated systems.. how many times have we heard of people with problems still running win 98, or poser 4?

You want more functionality, it's gonna cost more money, and require faster hardware, plain and simple.

well said!!

Quote - That's not Anything Grows or they have advanced it into something new and slid it into C6. Did you look at the hair animation? Poser can't do that.

My apologies... I was a bit hurried before I could finish the post (long story :) ). I correlated it too quickly to think it through. It is one hell of an improvement, though. if the dynamic cloth in DS turns out like I think it will (they've been working on this for awhile), and it translates to Carrara, then yeah... Poser will wither awful fast. The only thing that either group lacks is marketing outside the existing 3D/CG community. For instance, a Linux port of D|S could easily be distributed with Ubuntu, and Canonical (Ubuntu's company) would do all the work of promotion and distribution. I know RedHat wouldn't do it in their default Fedora Core distro (RH doesn't distribute proprietary source stuff that they themselves didn't build, IIRC). I did give this whole thing some thought... and I'm thinking Carrara Pro is prolly the biggest reason for the whole Poser Pro thingy. It does bring up a question, though - potential conflict/confusion with "PoserPros". /P

Quote - Poser 7 runs slower for two reasons:

1. multiple undos..

That's actually easy but for the current implementation with Poser's codebase (not Stewer's fault, mind you, but because Poser's codebase is what it is). D|S has always had multiple undo and it's 10x faster. > Quote - 2. Opengl Advanced lighting, proceedural texture, and transparency previews. Poser is now calculating the new light types, your proceedurals textures, and transparency mapping  for preview display in opengl. Slows opengl down for sure..

Again, I apologize, but nope. Poser does a large chunk of that internally when in truth it doesn't have to. It can (almost) all be pushed off to the graphics GPU to work on, leaving the engine and UI more wiggle room. Again, this is Poser's internal architecture and the compromises that had to be made... it's also part of why I've been shouting for years @ CL and EF to tear down Poser and rebuild it from scratch. They're still (I suspect) relying on chunks of code that are well over a decade old (and then some). > Quote - You want new features, there has to be SOME cost somwhere in execution speed.

Perhaps, but if those changes are implemented intelligently, that cost can be minimal. /P

Well, I guess the final answer to this question is "we shall see."

Those who just want to bash e-F are going to continue to do so, regardless of the evidence against them.

To begin with, I've had a couple crashes in all the years I've been using Poser, and that was due to overloading the scene. That's MY fault, not whoever the producer of Poser was at that point. So all of this BS bug talk is just that, BS. If the problem is relegated solely to you, it's not "fixable," and therefore not a bug. If a select few forum posters group up and complain about the same "bug" that still does not validate it. If it cannot be reproduced by the testing base, then it's probably something that select group is doing wrong. (Sorry, but when the complainers regarding bugs are the same names over and over, it tends to look a bit fishy.) If you honestly believe you've found a bug, submit it. I know for absolute fact that e-F takes bug reports seriously, and works diligently to fix anything that can be reproduced.

I noticed that the point that D|S and other Daz products are being supported via content channels was totally ignored. Plus, these features that are comparable to Poser's features are "add-ons" and require additional costs.

That's not to mention the plethora of content packaged with Poser. I see people using Poser's price point as a matter of contention. Well, when you compare the price of Poser to the price of D|S, make sure you add in the cost of a fully morphable V4 to compare to Jessi. Add in the same fully morphable V3 to compare to Judy. Add a M3 in to compare to James.

Oh wait, I also got Koshini, and LaRoo with P7. Add in a full Aiko3 package, and we'll call that square. (Who's left to compare with Sydney though? And the kids?)

Wait, do you get a 6-month subscription to the Platinum club @ Daz with D|S? I got my Content Paradise membership with P7.

Let's also not forget that CP offers a new freebie every month to everyone who owns a legit copy of Poser.

And before someone says that Jessi doesn't compare to Vicky, don't even bother. Even if you don't personally like a figure, it doesn't make it a poor offering.

I could go on and on, but it won't matter. Those who want to whine will continue to do so, regardless of what is presented counter to their arguments. If you don't like Poser, just stop using it. Enjoy D|S, enjoy Carrara, enjoy Bryce, Hexagon, and whatever else Daz puts out.

But don't start threads in the Poser forum about them. Here's some interesting stats:

Forum: Poser
Threads: 99768
Posts: 924953

Forum: Carrara
Threads: 6280
Posts: 42760

Forum: Daz|Studio
Threads: 1207
Posts: 8096

As they say, the grass is always greener on the other side. I hope you enjoy it!

Pengy... both your responses attempt to negate current facts.. yes in a perfect world, EF would be falling off their huge pile of money, and we'd have had 2 completely new codebases by now.

Now let's go back to reality. EF doesn't have (and never has had) a huge pile of money to fall off of. Like many other 3d companies, they are strugglling with expensive high tech developement, with a very low cash flow (relativly speaking) to work with.

Here's a great comparison example: Last BIg game came out sold like 20 million copies in a few days.

Odds are, EF, CL (pick yer poser developement company) has probably never sold anything near 1/20th of that in all the time poser has been around.

You see high tech game advancements because there's a huge production budget, and if successful, a huge income from it. You don;t see that with lower end 3d developement.

So my reasons that P7 is slower then P6 still actually stand. Can you agree with that? Not "what if" sideline quarterbacking of what could have/should have been done but the actual reality.

I am definitely going to upgrade my copy of Poser........and I'll most likely upgrade my copy of Carrara, too.  I like eF's stuff, and I like DAZ's stuff.  So I support both companies.

IMO, options are only to the good.  So I'm not going to slam either outfit for putting out new things, since I view such activity as a positive: as well as a strong indicator of a healthy and growing market.  The competition factor is a clear-on positive here: both companies have an additional incentive to strive to do better things.  From our end-user point of view, this state of affairs should be regarded as something to be happy about (I am happy about it).

@Gareee -- as you already know, there are many millions more addicted gamers than there are addicted 3D types (3D requires people to actually think -- so it's less popular.  ).  But of course: all of those millions of hollow-eyed, emaciated gaming addicts just wouldn't be able to get their next fix without the 3D dealers working behind the scenes to supply the gaming junkies with their poison.  Junkies which include -- and especially -- kids. 

Next thing you know, a government agency is going to make it illegal to open up a PC gaming store within 1500 ft. of an elementary school..........and they might start cracking down on the 3D suppliers & dealers, too.

I'm kind of wondering about the next gen games comning out with the crysis engine. Stonemason's already mentioned how amazing it is... I'm just hoping one of these guys takes up the gauntlet, and makes some kind of poser conversion utility for the crysis engine.

Granted, you probably couldn't use some of the higher poly content out there, but there's plenty of lower poly content, and that might give everyone real time animation capability.

From a consumer standpoint, that might make both Carerra 6 and poser pro less attractive, and they would end up for pro users, while consumers could use the crysis engine for consumer rendering/ realtime interaction.

Like the last 3 or 4 years, thios next year is gonna be a hell of a good rollercoaster ride

I agree about the gaming end of this thread, but the fantasy end-users are also a big bunch.

I guess I'll never know why peps diss improvements to programs. Take ZBrush for instance, before they released their update tons of peps were crying "foul"...and yet even broken, nothing comes close to touching what that program can do.

Ultimately everyone will benefit, even those that don't get the updated pro version.

Quote - Pengy... both your responses attempt to negate current facts.. yes in a perfect world, EF would be falling off their huge pile of money, and we'd have had 2 completely new codebases by now.

Now let's go back to reality. EF doesn't have (and never has had) a huge pile of money to fall off of. Like many other 3d companies, they are strugglling with expensive high tech developement, with a very low cash flow (relativly speaking) to work with.

I actually agree with the facts presented there (and have actually argued along those lines in another thread), but not your premise.

One can re-write a codebase without draining the entire pool to do it. You simply hold off on pushing out an upgrade nearly every year (which is what appears to be happening nowadays @ EF). Instead, you skip a release one year, and present a whole new and improved version the 2nd year.

Quote - So my reasons that P7 is slower then P6 still actually stand. Can you agree with that? Not "what if" sideline quarterbacking of what could have/should have been done but the actual reality.

You presented it as if it were true of all software companies and packages, which is not true.

Perfect example: Apple OSX and Microsoft Windows.

In 1999, Apple took a rather painful step and began to abandon MacOS for what is now OSX. Developers hated them, and 3rd parties cursed them. Adobe (among others) threw a global hissy-fit. OSX 10.0 sucked worse than Windows ME (no, really... it did). 10.1 wasn't a new feature set as much as it was a massive package of bugfixes while everyone got used to the new setup.

But... 5 years on, and OSX is not only efficient, but it does everything Vista does and more, while doing it far more efficiently. OSX has room for growth. It is as flexible as all get-out.

Now compare that to Vista, which is a re-work of XP, which is a re-work of 2000, which is a rework of NT... the NT development chain stretches back into the late '80's - early 90's. That's right - Vista is running on what is essentially a 17-year-old codebase... and it shows. It shows in the higher hardware requirements, it shows in the higher disk requirements, and it shows in almost every other aspect you can think of.

To top it off, Apple has far, far, far smaller budgets than Microsoft. Almost always has.

EF can do a lot of this now... they still have the resources, time, and market share to get away with it; instead of money, they spend time. They may not have those in five years.

/P

Penguinisto wrote: "It is one hell of an improvement, though. if the dynamic cloth in DS turns out like I think it will (they've been working on this for awhile), and it translates to Carrara, then yeah... Poser will wither awful fast."

Separate plugs designed for each app. DS/Carrara get thier own version. Kind of eliminates the need to export/import between the two.

For the record, so some will understand, I don't use DS but I do try the new versions to see what is going on and I can have an honest veiw of the software. I'm also not one of those who thinks Daz can't do no wrong. Hex2.2 and V4.1 proved that recently. So I don't think it matters what company it is, there will be bugs.Ef is no different.

 
destro75 wrote:
"If it cannot be reproduced by the testing base, then it's probably something that select group is doing wrong. (Sorry, but when the complainers regarding bugs are the same names over and over, it tends to look a bit fishy."

Sure there are those that go out of thier way to bash ef for everything. You get that with any software. But there are those that are having crashes with P7 and complain to find out that they are not the only ones having the same problems, they don't have to think why is it only them. It's not much but at least you know your not alone. I have a new machine, bigger, faster and better. I have had a few P7 crashes and the problem with these are,P7 crashes when doing different things and it does not seem to be the same things, which makes it hard to file a bug report.

 
"I noticed that the point that D|S and other Daz products are being supported via content channels was totally ignored. Plus, these features that are comparable to Poser's features are "add-ons" and require additional costs."

True, but lets not forget that so are many of the plugs used in poser. But no doubt that Poser is the all in one package. Between DS and Poser.

As for content, Well poser has more, true, But let's not forget that Daz gives the Starter package for free and the same with V/M/A3. Yes they are Light versions but so are the extra ones you mentioned.

"Wait, do you get a 6-month subscription to the Platinum club @ Daz with D|S? I got my Content Paradise membership with P7."

Thats an apple to orange statement. DS is free and we payed for P7.

"Let's also not forget that CP offers a new freebie every month to everyone who owns a legit copy of Poser."

Not really. It is only for P6/7 users and those that have a membership. Daz's is for anyone every week. But CP offers thiers every week too, but as I stated, for the chosen few.

As I said before, I hope the best for poser. Yes, I also think this is over the carrara6 thing. I also will wait to see what has been done with poser before I judge it. This competition is the good kind. It makes for great debates and better features for use in the long run.

How can the people at e Frontier recreate the problems I'm having with P7 exactly? They don't have my computer with my settings or the other programs I have or my motherboard. Let me say this. P7 seems to crash and die easy. Tryed to save a figure that had a figure parented to it and "bo-ip" P7 was gone and I was looking at my desk top. I selected save individual just so you know. P6 don't do things like that, but it will think and think for an eternity on some things and never finish even sometimes, but doesn't go "bo-ip" and disappear. It's just locks a lot (not responding). I'm not making it up. I live with it and still get work done because there's more than one way to skin a catfish. I save often.

P7 has a few bugs in it still but I'm confident that they can make it more stable in another service release or two, sooner or later. I'm also looking forward to Poser Pro's release.

Quote - How can the people at e Frontier recreate the problems I'm having with P7 exactly?

Include as much detail in your bug report as possible. Give instructions on how to reproduce the problems down to "talking to an idiot" level, describing every single click and keystroke you did before the problem appeared, what the symptoms were that you saw and what result you expected to see instead.

Here's another one. Make a morph in D/S 1.7 with the deformer tool on a figure and or body part and export the whole body as an obj and try to apply it as a morph to the whole body in P7(bo-ip).  It'll crash P7 everytime for me anyways. One things for sure and that is I'm always pushing to see what I can get away with in the programs. If they do that at e frontier and mix it up with morphs,imports and parented figures( the fun stuff) I'm sure it'll crash for them also unless they're testing it with unreal conditions by users that do everything methodical and perfect with perfect content used exactly the way it's supposed to be used in a totally sterile enviroment. I'm always pushing Poser to see what I can get it to do and I run the heck out of it. It's half the fun making it crash. I've crashed the new D/S already and I'm not able to adjust the parameter dials tool window on one side it just snaps back to the same location.  I'm supposed to be able to drag and drop it. I love abusing software. I try to stay current on all my drivers so that's not a problem.  Settings would be the next thing and these new graphics cards are complex now huh?

dogor, that's an easy one, and not a program issue. To do a full body morph, you need to save out each individual group as an obj, then apply them individually as morphs in poser, and then activate all of them, and make a full body morph. it's not a one click deal.

I was just tinkering to see what would happen. I figured I wasn't supposed too. I usually do my morphing work in Lightwave. Lightwave is a far more expensive program and I crash it all the time with the rounding tool. I have a Hot Rod like mentality with software and computers. I do it just to see what happens sometimes. I would think an error message would pop up rather than the program crash and in Lightwave I usually get a message that windows is sorry but the program has to close and when I click OK it doesn't matter how much work I lose, it closes and there's no way around it. Saving often no matter what software you're in is wise. They don't tell you in the manuals what happens if you screw up. You learn it from the school of hard knocks.

Quote - Is this another move towards professionalism and away from hobbyists??

Poser Pro is like Vue 6 xStream.  It brings the Poserdom environment to the higher-end 3D apps.

*To start out the week with a bang and judging by comments within this post, this should be an exciting announcement of a major feature Carrara 6 users have been wanting!

It’s unprecedented — all DAZ content is now fully supported in Carrara 6! This includes better support for skinning and morphing targets. The speed of manipulation has been improved a lot (up to 10 times faster).

You can feel it in the bones, literally. Carrara 5 already could import OBJs and textures, but Carrara 6 has the ability to import fully rigged DAZ 3D content. This allows your creations to come alive****. No need to buy Poser any longer!**
The users can browse the DAZ content through a content browser and directly drag and drop clothing or props on the figures.

Both animators and illustrators will benefit from this as they use Carrara 6 to pose their figures using their favorite setups from DAZ Studio, then go beyond to animate, light and set them in pristine landscapes.*Just a quote from the Carrara forums at DAZ. I know DAZ always is quick to point out they do not want to replace Poser at all (a statement all of their actions contradict), but they've started the full head on now. As soon as Carrara 6 is released, as far as DAZ is concerned, there will be no need for buying Poser anymore. That's the true reason DAZ has aquired Carrara and I can understand the EF needs to move and somehow survive.

I've supported Poser from version 2 and I will keep on using it, D/S or Carrara is no attractive option for me. I've got Carrara 5, but I hardly do touch it and I sure don't like the way D/S works. I'm a diehard Poser user. Having said that.... I still don't fully understand EF moves and why they have failed to release a better P7 standard update, but instead chose to release the features in P7 Pro. We all know that the 'pro' users who do not use Poser are not going to be enticed to use Poser just because it's called Pro now. The so called pro's have different reasons not to use Poser. 

I also don't think that calling it Pro will win over any Carrara Pro (or even standard) users. Carrara 6's feature list is impressive. Even C6 standard is impressive and with DirectX support added also, it comes close to what Poser Pro is able to do, it may actually rise above Poser Pro in features. C6 standard is at the same price level as Poser 7 standard (when not taking in regard any reductions and sales prices) yet offers Poser 7 Pro features. Carrara 6 Pro is far ahead of Poser 7 standard and Pro and offers stuff that Poser can never catch up with. We don't know the price of Poser Pro yet, but I wouldn't be suprised it's at the same price range as Carrara Pro will be. (BTW Khai, I suspect you come in here bothering me about pricing again, I don't care, I realized I shouldn't have gone discussing with you anyway, since EF more or less owns you, meaning you're biased beforehand.)

I DAZ succeeds at what they're doing, I can even see them slowly dropping poser content support in the future, forcing users to make a real choice. It's not going to happen overnight, but they have a way of doing software sales which enticed many people to buy their software, while EF still refuses to treat their loyal customers right. In the end it's all going to matter and EF may well be pulling the shortest end.

I've got enough Poser content to keep me a happy Poser user for a lifetime, but I wonder if in a few years I will be one of the few who is still using an obsolete application called Poser which once ysed to be famous, but failed to go with what it's users asked for and was replaced by something called D/S or Carrara...... It sure seems to be that after some initial succes, EF is now heading the same direction as all of the previous Poser owners.

Let's face it; this has been a long overdue move on Poser's part. P7Pro is sounding all the world like an animators release. Not many people need a renderfarm for stills. I also strongly doubt that the info released is all the info there is; for compatibility 's sake if nothing else, they will need either weightmapping or runtime sub-D.....or both. Comparing Poser in any incarnation and Cararra is apples and kumquats; one is a figure manipulating, animating and rendering app, the other is a modelling program with plug-in support for dynamics. DAZ may indeed try and phase out Poser support....to be followed shortly by DAZ going out of business. They make their money on =content=.....and the king of content use is still Poser. Bryce is creaky, and I doubt turning a profit unless they got if for next to nothing (which is possible). Cararra's community is considerably smaller than Poser's. The 'DS is FWEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!' screed only holds until you start to want or need those expensive additions to come close to what a single app (or a pair of them) can produce. Sure, DAZ started DS and collecting endangered apps as a hedge against Poser going Tango Uniform. Which is why eF has gotten into the content creation business....so that =their= eggs don't depend on the kindness of DAZ. So we'll see what P7Pro is made of.....it might just bury DS, you know....

Comparing Poser in any incarnation and Cararra is apples and kumquats; one is a figure manipulating, animating and rendering app, the other is a modelling program with plug-in support for dynamics. 

Carrara (even v5) is much much more then you say it is, are sure you don't mix it up with Hexagon? Carrara 5 can do a lot of things Poser can do and Carrara 6 will be very close if not beyond Poser. Carrara has excellent rendering engine. Handles animation very well. Rigging characters no problem. C6 will have dynamic cloth & hair and so on and animation features that go beyond what poser can do, let's not even mention the improvements in the rendering engine as well as being able to create landscapes and all that comes with that.

*They make their money on =content=.....and the king of content use is still Poser.
*I wouldn't even be too sure about that either...... D/S 1.7 has over 38,000 downloads after it's release 2 weeks or so ago. I seriously doubt Poser 7 has sold so many copies, Poser 6 may not even had such sales. I do realize not all of those people are serious users, but that goes the same for poser. 

*So we'll see what P7Pro is made of.....it might just bury DS, you know....
*Considering that P7Pro will not be cheap and some of the pro-features are free to D/S users, I doubt that. We all know that a lot of poser users haven't even upgraded to P7 yet (and may never do so), it's very likely that even less will upgrade to P7Pro. Also if D/S keeps on going as it does (and seeing that even some of the die-hard poser users are promoting it a lot now), it soon will be equal to Poser 7 and Poser 7 Pro, if not beyond it. You also need to keep in consideration that a stable Poser version takes a long time with EF..... P7 for sure isn't stable and it took them ages to get P6 stable. DAZ is releasing new versions a lot quicker, I think EF is betting on too many cards these days, they don't seem to be able to keep up with everything.

I'm not interested in getting into Poser versus Daz argument.   I'm intereseted in buying C6 but I do not know what it will get me for animation.  What animation tools does it have that Poser doesn't?

I understand the render engine is much faster and better able to use multi core and renderfarm.  That is a big advantage but It sounds like an upgrade to poser pro will do that as well.  Plus if Collada works in poser pro out I may be able to render in some other apps fairly easilly.  

Are there other animation benefits to C6?

The downside is I will nto be able to use python scripts right?

Any responses appreciated.

Yes! It can be used to animate the environments that you create in it! It can be used to rig and animate figures as well as use both Poser and DS rigged figures. The mere fact that you can do it all inside Carrara and you can't do true environments in Poser put's it a huge step up the performance ladder for me.

From what I've heard about C6 and C6 Pro, it even has better methods of loading conforming clothing and parented props with drag and drop capabilities. Imagine being able to just drag your Poser figures into C6 from the library in an outdoor scene you've created and animating the whole thing there! You can load Poses by drag and dropping them as well, which I assume includes animated Poses.

Just being able to animate inside the environment you've created is a big plus over having to animate and save as a PZ3. If  you don't have to import to tweak your figures to work with the environments is just, well, WOW!

Rondino,
I have not worked with the Carrara animation tools, but the list of features for the current version, C5, surpasses Poser7. Just the bezier functions alone put it past Poser.

Here is the feature list page, followed by the animation features....

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/software/carrara_5/-/fullfeaturelist?

Animation Carrera 5
 
Key Frame Animation
Animation Preview Controls
Animation of object motion
Animation of shaders
Key Frame Editing (Sequencer)
Copy-Paste Key Frames
Scale Key Frames Selection
Repeat Key Frames Selection
Linear Interpolation (Tweener)
Bezier Interpolation
NEW - Spline Interpolation
Discrete Interpolation
Formula Interpolation
Oscillate Interpolation
Velocity Interpolation
Ease In/Ease Out
Storyboarding
Multiple types of constraints: 2D Plane, Axis, Ball Joint, Custom, Lock, Shaft, Slide
Graph Editor NEW (Pro Only)
NEW - Edit Motion curves
NEW - Zoom To Selection
NEW - Zoom to Playback time
NEW - Edit multiple curves together
NEW - Edit Tangents
NEW - Link/Unlink tangents
Behavior
Behavior-Based Animation
Point At Behavior
Track Behavior
Spin Behavior
Motion Paths
Editable Motion Paths
Move entire Motion Path
Align and Bank
Align
Do not Align
Sound Support - Now in both versions
Multiple Soundtracks
Import WAV files
Import AIFF Files
Move Sounds in Sequence
Display of Waveform
Save Sounds with Movie (QuickTime® only)
 Character Animation
NEW - Weightmaps Painting
NEW - Joint Orientation
Skeleton Creation Tool (Bone Tool)
Automatic Calculation of Bones Influences
Automatic Skinning
Attach Skeleton
Detach Skeleton
Send Bones to Reference Position
Joints Constraints
Edit Bones Influences over a Vertex
Edit Bones Influences over Multiple Vertices
Edit Object with Skinning in Vertex Modeler
Compatible with Morph Targets
Inverse Kinematics
IK Chain Tool
IK Target Helper
Forward Kinematics
Particle System - IMPROVED
NEW - Particle Editor
NEW - Facing Camera (Splats)
NEW - Metaballs
NEW - Particles collide with objects
NEW - Apply forces to particles
NEW - Objects as particles
NEW - Emit from objects
Bound System
Free System
Multiple Particle Shapes: Triangle, Rectangle, Diamond and Sphere
Particle Frequency
Particle Lifetime
Particle Velocity
Birth Color
Death Color
Presets
Emit Duration
Emit Area
Emit Dispersion
Freeze Particles
Air Friction
Floor Friction
Bounce Factor
Gravity
Particle Spawning at Collisions
Particle Spawning at Age
Maximum Spawn
Spawn Velocity
Spawn Radius
Spawn Force
Spawn Angle
Preview Particle System

Quote - Yes! It can be used to animate the environments that you create in it! It can be used to rig and animate figures as well as use both Poser and DS rigged figures. The mere fact that you can do it all inside Carrara and you can't do true environments in Poser put's it a huge step up the performance ladder for me.

From what I've heard about C6 and C6 Pro, it even has better methods of loading conforming clothing and parented props with drag and drop capabilities. Imagine being able to just drag your Poser figures into C6 from the library in an outdoor scene you've created and animating the whole thing there! You can load Poses by drag and dropping them as well, which I assume includes animated Poses.

Just being able to animate inside the environment you've created is a big plus over having to animate and save as a PZ3. If  you don't have to import to tweak your figures to work with the environments is just, well, WOW!

Yawn. :)  interPoser Pro for Cinema 4D already has 'drag and drop' parenting, smart parenting, and conforming.  You can apply poses, animated poses, MAT poses, MOR poses (and any combination) to live content similarly to Poser's library.  You can pose, morph, animate, parent, conform, texture all right there as well.  It includes master-slave dial support (even across figures), BVH import (to be improved for motion retargeting of generic bvh), and soon collision proxy creation (for dynamic hair and cloth) and full IK support.  Now, I'm not e-frontier or DAZ each with their fifty+ degreed programmers and financial backing.  What took so long? :P

Reminds me of Reiss Studios.  It took them longer (with official contractual support from e-frontier) to write 'hosting' plugins for C4D than it did for me to write live content support.

Robert

As a Poser-compatible, low end modeling and animation program, Carrara is certain to have more tools and options than even a "Pro" version of Poser, which will serve as an add-on to the truly professional programs. Depending on the price, Carrara may or may not be the best deal for a hobbyist, though my half-hearted quest to find a good Carrara render in the galleries is still underway. Not that the best programs in the world can’t be made to churn out substandard stuff. Does Carrara support “multi-track” animation with each moved object or body part key framed on its own timeline? I’m just curious. It would be great if it did.

Does Carrara have great support and a huge knowledge base for newb's? There are tons of sites with tutorials for Poser and creating content for Poser. Now I happen to know also the Poser forums are unsurpassed in knowledge and know how using Poser and many other things. The other forums are almost dead when compared. Don't count chickens before they hatch. Carrara may be all that and a bag of chips, but nobody knows much about it as compared to Poser and there certianly isn't the support for Carrara yet in the comunity otherwise you wouldn't be in a Poser Pro forum posting advertisments for it. Pretty piss poor taste if you ask me(coat tail riders). Yep I'm bias too. Don't like it? Get used to it. It's going to take time to get everyone away from Poser because a lot of people use it and there is a lot of support for it all over the place. Don't forget they can still improve Poser, but something tells me they don't want to make it too technical for newb's either. All these advances are great except you have to learn how to use them and the support in the comunity makes Poser shine the brightest. You have a question and most of the time somebody can answer it five minutes or less. Daz Studio or Carrara neither one can boast that. The support lags, they're too new. Go to the Carrara and D/S forum and advertise for Daz's stuff. I'm not impressed. I'm not learning anything about Poser Pro with these long winded Carrara vs. Poser speaches.

Actually,  it started as a debate thread about PoserPro with a question. Did you even read the first post? This is how these kind of threads go. Comparing the features of one app with the other and debating if ef is phazing out the hobbiest as the very first post asked.

If you want to learn about Poser pro then you will have to wait like the rest of us to get the official feature list. Oh wait, that has not been released yet.  So, as in your own words. "Don't like it? Get used to it." There will be a lot of debating and, " long winded Carrara vs. Poser speaches."

Quote - Let's face it; this has been a long overdue move on Poser's part. P7Pro is sounding all the world like an animators release. Not many people need a renderfarm for stills. I also strongly doubt that the info released is all the info there is; for compatibility 's sake if nothing else, they will need either weightmapping or runtime sub-D.....or both.

This was Just reported in the, Cinema4D forum, from"Wdupre" who Talked to
E-frontier reps at Siggraph 07:

"I just came back from Siggraph. and did some grilling over at the EF booth, and at no time did they say that any rigging would be involved with any of the export options from Poser Pro, in fact they were very specific in saying that animation export would be completely handled using deformers."

This lays to rest ANY speculation about poserpro7 's "Hosting" being anything  more than a redux of riess  studio's redux  of  the curious labs Poser4 propack hosting plugins. from yesteryear

Do/Fix /adjust EVERYTHING in poser FIRST and host in MAX, LW etc for rendering
only
NO interaction with the native programs Dynamics or Physics engine.

When a 3D mesh becomes a righteously defended personification of your personal desires It has become an IDOL and YOU have become its worshipper,slave and servant.
-Tain-