I'm not talking about the hosting plug-ins, Wolf. I'm talking about COLLADA. A direct cut-and-paste from the Pro page at eFrontier America's site: COLLADA Poser Pro offers Data Exchange with the industry-standard COLLADA format. Gain maximum flexibility by transporting Poser content to applications such as Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended. Import: Geometry, Textures, Cameras, and Lights Export: Geometry, Textures, Cameras, Lights, Morph targets, Bones, Shaders, Animation Data I don't know why anyone would -want- to use a hosting plugin if they could use COLLADA to export all of that into a supported app. Since the geometry is there, along with the animation data, unless there is a MacGuffin they haven't told us about, those dynamics and physics engines =should= be able to affect them, correct, since it would be content import and not hosting?

very succintly put, Dale.

And quite a promise from COLLADA.

For some, like myself, the holy grail is for DazStudio or PoserPro to be a 'character and prop setup' antechamber for an application with larger powers. I would love to open PoserPro, load V4 and M4, perhaps morph their faces into the look I want, then take them into Max or Lightwave or Cinema or yes, Cararra for hair, cloth, skin shader tweak, and then directly to animation, lighting and render.

Both Daz and EF are promising this in the near future through COLLADA. To get mesh, texture maps, shaders (I'd expect to have to adjust) morph targets and rig from Poser into Max would be more than enough. 

My issue with Poser content, however, is two-fold:

1. high poly -- I'd be looking to somehow reduce the poly count of V4
2. rig -- is it 'a good thing' to want to bring Poser rigging into Max? Will animation in Max require instead a Max biped or Character Studio-native rig.

I am just in my first few days with Max, and it may turn out the it is just as easy to simply tackle a one-time transfer of V4 into Max piece by piece. It is obviously easy to get the mesh over by .obj......can anyone point a way to get the morph target set of V4 over to Max? I guess the gross method would be exporting them as .obj one by one and importing them, if that is possible.

::::: Opera :::::

P.S. noted: kuroyume's system of asset exchange between Poser and Cinema 4D. Very interesting.

Quote - Comparing Poser in any incarnation and Cararra is apples and kumquats; one is a figure manipulating, animating and rendering app, the other is a modelling program with plug-in support for dynamics.

Small point of correction: Carrara can model, yes, but its renderer, even way back in v.1.1, was top-notch, and far surpasses most of them at the same price. It also had dynamic Hair (starting with Anything Grows), dynamic lighting (Anything Glows), some hella tight Shader action, and much, much more... long before Poser 5 arrived. Back in the day it couldn't manipulate figures... w/ D|S, it can, and have them fully rigged (a skeletal rig makes a huge diff when it comes to bending joints, trust me). > Quote - DAZ may indeed try and phase out Poser support....to be followed shortly by DAZ going out of business. They make their money on =content=.....and the king of content use is still Poser.

Currently, this is true. 5 years from now? Who knows? > Quote - Bryce is creaky, and I doubt turning a profit unless they got if for next to nothing (which is possible).

They pretty much did. Corel was about to make Bryce into abandonware. > Quote - Cararra's community is considerably smaller than Poser's.

Currently, yes. But over time... > Quote - The 'DS is FWEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!' screed only holds until you start to want or need those expensive additions to come close to what a single app (or a pair of them) can produce.

Expensive in what way? I can get what plugins I want for it for pretty much the same prices as much of the stuff in the RMP. Carrara Pro itself costs roughly the same as Poser, IIRC. Seen from that angle, it's a very fair match, money-wise. > Quote - Sure, DAZ started DS and collecting endangered apps as a hedge against Poser going Tango Uniform. Which is why eF has gotten into the content creation business....so that =their= eggs don't depend on the kindness of DAZ.

True. OTOH, methinks EF originally wanted Poser to go with Shade. > Quote - So we'll see what P7Pro is made of.....it might just bury DS, you know....

Two different markets there. P7Pro is aiming for the land of Vue d'Esprit and the pro-am market. D|S is aiming for the newbies and serves as a stepping-stone for Carrara, which already stands in the pro-am market. ;) /P

Quote - D/S 1.7 has over 38,000 downloads after it's release 2 weeks or so ago. I seriously doubt Poser 7 has sold so many copies, Poser 6 may not even had such sales. I do realize not all of those people are serious users, but that goes the same for poser. 

IMHO, Poser has a very large userbase. Poser 7 probably sold around 50,000 copies by now. Of course, this doesn't count P2P downloading of Poser 5/6/7, either, which far outstrips it, judging by the popularity of Poser in even a simple search. Distasteful as some may think it, P2P is actually a sizeable chunk of Poser's userbase. /P

Quote - I'm not talking about the hosting plug-ins, Wolf. I'm talking about COLLADA. A direct cut-and-paste from the Pro page at eFrontier America's site: COLLADA Poser Pro offers Data Exchange with the industry-standard COLLADA format. Gain maximum flexibility by transporting Poser content to applications such as Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended. Import: Geometry, Textures, Cameras, and Lights Export: Geometry, Textures, Cameras, Lights, Morph targets, Bones, Shaders, Animation Data I don't know why anyone would -want- to use a hosting plugin if they could use COLLADA to export all of that into a supported app. Since the geometry is there, along with the animation data, unless there is a MacGuffin they haven't told us about, those dynamics and physics engines =should= be able to affect them, correct, since it would be content import and not hosting?

Will Collada bring in poser morph /posing dials??
Conforming clothing?
or do you just get a boned rig In MAYA XSI ,MAX
Like the old Alias FBX conversion???

When a 3D mesh becomes a righteously defended personification of your personal desires It has become an IDOL and YOU have become its worshipper,slave and servant
-Tain-

The big issues here with COLLADA are the same for every other 'live Poser content' support in other 3D apps: joint deformations and feature support.  No amount of exquisite vertex mapping will recreate Poser's joint deformation system.  And since dial values are set up to work with dial values (for master-slave control and deformations), there must be that intervening layer of 'Poser-ness' to truly emulate Poser figures in other applications.

That doesn't mean that COLLADA won't be an excellent way to use Poser figures in other apps if you don't mind the differences and lost features.  All depends on your goals.  With interPoser Pro, the goal was to emulate Poser features as best as possible - admittedly still far from that.  This isn't the most sane approach, believe me. :)  You still deal with the high polygon counts, the limitations of Poser's joint system (gimbal lock, for instance), and throw in the disparaties between the real thing and the emulation due to lack of definitive implementaiton information.

COLLADA does indeed promise bringing rigging and morph support into applications that have that import option.  Conforming and master-slave control seem less likely.  Since CL licensed Pixels3D's shader node material system, there have been few receiving applications that even bother to support it.  I can't, D|S can't, BodyStudio doesn't.  There might be one or two out there that do it because the app's material system is similar enough to reconstruct such a system - otherwise one needs to build a node system to maintain the semblence to the original.  There is nothing minor to that.

Quote -

P.S. noted: kuroyume's system of asset exchange between Poser and Cinema 4D. Very interesting.

Kuroyumes Solution is not just and exchange of assets its  the running of  full featured poser rigs with morphs.MAT poses,Conforming clothing,BVH/animated pose file loading directly from ANY properly structured poser runtimes .
save your scene once and you have a NATIVE C4D scene for future revisits
you literally  dont need to have the poser app itself installed.

the only reason i have kept poser 6 installed is to run those easy wonderful
python script like physics and puppetmaster I dont care about posers  wiregram shader trees  or its  Dead Dog slow "firefly" personally
Its truly Amazing that One lone programmer undertook the development and delivered such a complete solution,, Bravo!!

When a 3D mesh becomes a righteously defended personification of your personal desires It has become an IDOL and YOU have become its worshipper,slave and servant
-Tain-

I've been looking into Cinema and although the base cost is relatively low, the package I'd want, in order to bring the features into approximate parity with those included in 3DSMax 9, come to about the same total.

CINEMA 4D $895.00 
Advanced Render $595.00 
Dynamics $395.00 
Hair (Pre-order) $395.00 
MOCCA (includes cloth) $595.00 
NET Render $395.00 
Sketch and Toon $595.00
total $3,865.00 

::::: Opera :::::

There's a whole lotta guessin' goin' on............but I suppose that it's fun.

Quote - Will Collada bring in poser morph /posing dials??
Conforming clothing?
or do you just get a boned rig In MAYA XSI ,MAX
Like the old Alias FBX conversion???

As the COLLADA plugin is apparently in very early beta stage, who knows? But just the fact that it is an xml open format leaves a very big window for someone to figure out just that if it doesn't happen at first. I don't expect an All-In-Wonder first release; I'm thinking about future interoperability. That is going to guide my upgrade plans more than immediate features. And from my experience, even the best laid shader conversion schemes seem to require so much tweaking and finessing that it's usually wiser to just plan on doing your setup in your final render stage to begin with. This is why I think there will be improvements in the rigging and joint deformation schemes, at least vis-a-vis COLLADA. We all know the weaknesses in the Poser system,and the damnably clever kludges that have been cobbled up over the years to deal with them. Without those, we are back at P4's level, and we all remember the postwork needed to fix the joint breaks. Even middling semi-pro's are not going to put up with those kinds of issues. If this is something as a counter to C6, then it will need to work well enough for those semi-pro's to consider it worthy of their pipeline. If they can't translate the kludges, the only other option is going to be improvements in the underlying system. And who knows? the underpinning may already be present (didn't someone find a stub for animation layers in P6? And wasn't something found that seemed to indicate that the substructure for network rendering was implemented in P7?).

Quote - > Quote - Yes! It can be used to animate the environments that you create in it! It can be used to rig and animate figures as well as use both Poser and DS rigged figures. The mere fact that you can do it all inside Carrara and you can't do true environments in Poser put's it a huge step up the performance ladder for me.

From what I've heard about C6 and C6 Pro, it even has better methods of loading conforming clothing and parented props with drag and drop capabilities. Imagine being able to just drag your Poser figures into C6 from the library in an outdoor scene you've created and animating the whole thing there! You can load Poses by drag and dropping them as well, which I assume includes animated Poses.

Just being able to animate inside the environment you've created is a big plus over having to animate and save as a PZ3. If  you don't have to import to tweak your figures to work with the environments is just, well, WOW!

Yawn. :)  interPoser Pro for Cinema 4D already has 'drag and drop' parenting, smart parenting, and conforming.  You can apply poses, animated poses, MAT poses, MOR poses (and any combination) to live content similarly to Poser's library.  You can pose, morph, animate, parent, conform, texture all right there as well.  It includes master-slave dial support (even across figures), BVH import (to be improved for motion retargeting of generic bvh), and soon collision proxy creation (for dynamic hair and cloth) and full IK support.  Now, I'm not e-frontier or DAZ each with their fifty+ degreed programmers and financial backing.  What took so long? :P

Reminds me of Reiss Studios.  It took them longer (with official contractual support from e-frontier) to write 'hosting' plugins for C4D than it did for me to write live content support.

Robert

Yawn to you maybe, but I've never owned a copy of C4D. Carrara on the other hand, I've had since Ray Dream Studio 5.5 was it's name and it was owned by Metacreations, so yeah, it's exicting that software I already have an upgrade route to will be getting all of this! :)

PS - I'm a hobbiest and C4D isn't in my price range for these features and Carrara is. Hope you don't mind if I do the Snoopy Happy Dance now. ;)

Quote - I've been looking into Cinema and although the base cost is relatively low, the package I'd want, in order to bring the features into approximate parity with those included in 3DSMax 9, come to about the same total.

CINEMA 4D $895.00 
Advanced Render $595.00 
Dynamics $395.00 
Hair (Pre-order) $395.00 
MOCCA (includes cloth) $595.00 
NET Render $395.00 
Sketch and Toon $595.00
total $3,865.00 

::::: Opera :::::

Honestly Opera
from your previous posts your main interest seem to be animation
of V4 with the most realistic  skin and hair you can mange

Drop the "Dynamic"s unless you plant on hard collision(ie Vicky 4 goes bowling)
Keep MOCCA and Clothildle you will NEVER Go back to poser cloth

Drop Sketch&toon Its  world class but again you have never expressed interest
in toon or animae renders.

that puts you at $2975
plus about $130 for interposer pro

if you decide later you do truly need want toon renders and falling bowling pins
you can always add those modules later
Just a thought

When a 3D mesh becomes a righteously defended personification of your personal desires It has become an IDOL and YOU have become its worshipper,slave and servant
-Tain-

Ok. Yes, that is an accurate assessment of my needs. I have a separate desire for the toon render module, though, that you don't know about. It's good to be able to modularize the purchase.

Well, I see there is a trial of Cinema...I might try it. Giving Max the center stage right now. 

Of the four majors, Maya and XSI are about $7000 to get everything, seems like Max and Cinema are more or less in the $3500 range. The first two are out of my price range completely, forgidabodit. 

::::: Opera :::::

operaguy: Get the XL Bundle (Advanced Render, NET 3, MOCCA, Thinking Particles), add Hair,  and you should be set.  That'll be $2590.  If you call MaxonUSA (if you're in the US) and talk to Rafi, you might be able to swing a discount price.  She is really great about that sometimes. :)

It is definitely a step up from $300 for Poser, but you get a very powerful 3D system that is only getting better and better.  Maya is a steep learning curve with a steep price and geared towards studio work.  Max is, hmmm, strange.  It's buggy, only Windows, mainly used by game developers, horrid interface, and still costly.  LW3D is falling apart - ne'er more on that.  XSI would be the only viable alternative to C4D.

MatrixWorks:  Just seems funny that it took sooo long to attempt this level of Poser support in Carrara (sister to Poser in a sense).  I have Carrara 5 Pro w/Transposer and it is not a bad little 3D application.  Just that with Cinema 4D, I don't use Hex, Carrara, Shade, Vue much at all.  Vue is probably the best landscape-foliage-atmosphere app out there, but to combine everything you really need VueXStream which is a bundle/bungle all by itself as going from Vue to Cinema you can't use Ecosystems.

Mainly I was making notification that C6 isn't going to be the first on the block to do it.  We'll have to see how great this is (can DAZ get it right?).

Robert

I'll chime in here and say that Carrara has an excellent renderer.  In fact, maybe the best renderer on the market for apps in Carrara's price range -- with the possible exception of the low-end of Vue.

Poser's render engine is by far and away Poser's most glaring weakness - in addition to Poser not 'playing well' with other apps.  I'm hoping that Poser Pro will address all of these weaknesses.

I'm sold.  Let's all go out and buy C4D: and ignore all other 3D apps.

I might get into the C4D game one of these days.  Frankly, the thing that's really caught my attention with C4D is the fact that it comes bundled together with Bodypaint.  I have to admit that's a deal.

Odd, too......I've heard others describe MAX as being "rock solid".  I'm not a MAX user -- but I am a regular user of a different Autodesk app -- and AutoCAD is a long ways from being a "strange" piece of software. BTW - this is also the first that I"ve heard that LW3D is "falling apart".  But I have seen a lot of praise elsewhere for LW's latest incarnation - 9.2.

I have found Max logical and stable so far. I also have the factor that my son is going up the learning curve fast in Max at his school.  VRay and Mental Ray on board.

Also, since facial animation is very important to me, a new plugin from Joe (shave and a haircut) Alter called LipService looms large. 

http://www.lbrush.com/

This app combines advanced facial slider animation with a morph brush tool right on board and in real time. The app executes inside Max.

::::: Opera :::::

kuroyume

Tahnks for all your responses on this topic and others.  In general you seem pretty objective about your poduct and so I would like your opinions on this.  I'm sorry to put you on the spot since its your own software I'm askign to compare, and if anyoen else wants to chime in let me know.

I have not used either C4d or Carrara

How does the IPP and C4D combo compare to C6? (based on experience with c5pro and with the assumptions the claims of c6 are reasonably accurate)

I am somewhat like opera Guy in what I want ot accomplish.  Realistic animations.  However, I am not interested in modeling.

What are some things one or the other does that animators of poser content really like/need and the other doesn't have.

I have not really seen many decent realistic human renders in Carrara - other than Schoners -which I thought was great.  It seems so many are of orange people or something.  I'm not sure.

Wolf I know you used to use Carrara.  It seems you switched to C4d.  Why?

Please compare the following if possible:

Lip syncing methods?

What about if you want allot of figures in a scene?

what about render speed/quality?

thanks

Maybe Max has solidified in recent releases, but I still hear murmurs of instabilities.  AutoCAD and Max aren't the same thing now, are they?  AutoCAD is a professional CAD tool - used in businesses over the world.  I have a trite bit of experince with it (say, nearly 20 years).  It says alot that Max is WINDOWS ONLY and buggy while C4D is Windows, Windows 64-bit, MacOS 9, MacOS X, and Linux (certain versions) and stable as a rock.

LW3D - I don't know.  Since the major, major, major (and I don't want to hear it because I was there when it happened) fiasco of LW 8, I've not heard about much improvement in 9 - I sold my license right then and there.  Still using the 19th century 'dual interface' - which is supremely horrible.  Still a bundle of features as little plugins.  Nope.  Never again.  Has NewTek refocused on LW since that tragedy?  Between Cinema 4D's much simpler interface and LW's mess, I prefer the former.  LW is powerful - it has all of the professional features, if you can find them.  It just isn't my cup o' tea. ;)

I have nothing to say about Joe (SaaH).  He dropped C4D and left us without any hair support until Hair and Renato's Fast&Fur.  Sounds like the money drove his decisions - not the support.  If that were the case, I'd drop Cinema 4D and go for Maya and Max since I could retire in a couple years (and charge $500 a pop instead of $150). ;D

Robert

I can't make any comparisons between Carrara 6's Poser support and that of my plugin in Cinema 4D.  C5 native Poser import is not too bad, but it does lack and fall down in areas - textures are one main gripe, no magnets.  My plugin lacks in areas as well - magnets, point at, custom/alternate geometry.  There is no real need for Poser dynamic hair and cloth support as it can be done much better and faster with Hair and Clothilde - but this does require the Hair and MOCCA modules.  Poser dynamic cloth props can be imported and used with Clothilde.  Hair would need a systemic translation between Poser's and C4D's.

No lip synching control - wow, you're talking about features that, for me, could be a couple years in the future. :)  Still reaching for full P4 level support - with no help from the guys who could make this easier (ef, DAZ, et al).

The same rules for a lot of figures in a scene applies to all systems: how big is the figure in memory and how much memory.  Emulating Poser features costs memory, but the footprint is still reasonable.  The main problem is undos.  Note that Poser 7 is the first version to introduce multiple undos - and you can see why you don't want to have a large number of undos with 2 V4.1's in a scene! ;)  My problem with undos in C4D is that I have no real control over their undo system which makes for less ability in that area.

It may not be true anymore since Advanced Render hasn't been thoroughly updated for some time, but C4D's renderer was considered one of the fastest a couple years back.  Still much faster than Poser and probably faster than Carrara - for the quality.  Doing side-by-side comparisons would be the only way to know - and finding comparable settings would be tough.

I don't remember if Carrara supported 'dials' for things like morphs and master-slave controls and I'm not certain of its joint system (are they emulating Poser's, just using their own, or is it comparable to Poser's?).

Around interPoser Pro v2, I will be making a low-level support change to allow for custom/alternate geometry.  I'll be doing it then as this will assuredly break current support but will allow both v1 and v2 to coexist.  Not certain if I want to maintain both paradigms in the same version.  It will involve using the plugin joints (Poser actors) to store the body part geometry and feed it into the stock Polygon object.  Unlike previous solution ideas, this will only need to update the Polygon object's mesh when switching alternate geometry and possibly when showing/hiding body parts (as it is not possible in C4D rendering to hide polygons).

Robert

Quote - Maybe Max has solidified in recent releases, but I still hear murmurs of instabilities.  AutoCAD and Max aren't the same thing now, are they?

Yep -- they are different apps.  I recall mentioning that fact in my post. 

Like I said -- I am not a MAX user, so I can only go by what I've heard elsewhere.  Some others think that MAX is the cat's meow (so to speak ).  The primary thing that's kept me away from MAX is its reported inability to provide an excellent render engine right out of the box without pricey add-ons.  At the cost that MAX goes for, you'd think that it should be able to turn out gourmet meals while rendering & answering your telephone at the same time (so to speak).  But I feel fairly safe in assuming that it's a top-notch 3D modeler.  Much of the industry seems to think so.

Quote - LW is powerful - it has all of the professional features, if you can find them.  It just isn't my cup o' tea. ;)

That I can certainly understand.  And therein lies the essence of the central rub over '3D app vs. 3D app' type debates.  Some people like things to be one way: while others prefer a different way.  IMO, they all have valid points -- under normal circumstances.

Personally, I'll take vanilla.......with chocolate, too.

It's also true......Grant and Lee were both using the dual-interface thingy back around 1862.........  I remember reading about it in Lee's memoirs. :biggrin: 

Seriously -- it's just a bit jarring to hear that LW3D is "falling apart", when I've seen effusive praise being heaped on its latest release elsewhere -- with the result that LW comes out covered in glory.  I'm probably correct in my assumption that C4D is covered with glory, too.  Perhaps I'll find out for myself.  I'd even buy Interposer (Intraposer?  Enterposer?) -- one of those.  Based upon what some have said: it must cook gourmet meals & answer telephones, too..........

Did anybody else notice how the press release only talks about "DAZ 3d content" not about poser content?

Quote - Did anybody else notice how the press release only talks about "DAZ 3d content" not about poser content?

Are you referring to Carrara 6?

Quote - > Quote - Did anybody else notice how the press release only talks about "DAZ 3d content" not about poser content?

 

Are you referring to Carrara 6?

oops, yeah, Carrara

In regards to LW3D, falling apart was the last state that I remember hearing about. ;)  After the v8 fiasco, things did not get better for a very long time (years).  They lost a ton of users (like me) due to their change of focus - to some evangelical tv thing or whatnot.  v8.5 didn't garner high praise either - but I wasn't even interested by that time.  I think that there was also a flashback to the Amiga (and NewTek started on that system with the VideoToaster): lose focus, lose userbase, lose stocks, board members decide to dump and run.

Don't listen to the hype (which is always gratuitous towards the product).  Get an independent review - someone not already in the same camp.   Try this - the first and last pages say it all:

http://www.cgfocus.com/review/story/130&page=1

http://www.cgfocus.com/review/story/130&page=11

Still the same divided application, same interface, but more problems as NewTek attempts to rub away their tarnished reputation.  Cinema 4D (which also started on Amiga) has never faltered in that way.  R10.0 was a bit buggy (which is new for Maxon), but they relatively quickly rebounded with an update that destroyed the bugs.  In my eyes, I see a app that may swerve a little on its travel down the road and one that drove through some fences and is still looking to get back on the road. ;)

Robert

Quote - In regards to LW3D, falling apart was the last state that I remember hearing about. ;)  After the v8 fiasco, things did not get better for a very long time (years).  They lost a ton of users (like me) due to their change of focus - to some evangelical tv thing or whatnot.  v8.5 didn't garner high praise either - but I wasn't even interested by that time.  I think that there was also a flashback to the Amiga (and NewTek started on that system with the VideoToaster): lose focus, lose userbase, lose stocks, board members decide to dump and run.

Don't listen to the hype (which is always gratuitous towards the product).  Get an independent review - someone not already in the same camp.   Try this - the first and last pages say it all:

http://www.cgfocus.com/review/story/130&page=1

http://www.cgfocus.com/review/story/130&page=11

Still the same divided application, same interface, but more problems as NewTek attempts to rub away their tarnished reputation.  Cinema 4D (which also started on Amiga) has never faltered in that way.  R10.0 was a bit buggy (which is new for Maxon), but they relatively quickly rebounded with an update that destroyed the bugs.  In my eyes, I see a app that may swerve a little on its travel down the road and one that drove through some fences and is still looking to get back on the road. ;)

Robert

That's reasonable.  I'll investigate further.  I do know that LW is pretty much the exclusive program of choice for TV shows on the Scifi Channel and elsewhere -- or at least it was the last that I heard.  And much of the praise for LW 9.2 that I've heard has come from current users (not official LW representatives -- workaday users).........who are therefore probably LW partisans.  Which makes their opinions about as reliable as the opinions of C4D partisans. :lol:

I had an Amiga.  Never had the Video Toaster, though -- although I certainly remember the program.  Including a little mini-controversy over what were called "Kiki FX".  Those were the days........

Once again -- lest I be misunderstood -- I am certain that C4D + interPoser is a fantastic setup.  I might end up getting it.  I just enjoy ribbing people.  It's a bad habit.  But I probably won't quit doing it.

Same here - I try to use that foot protector over my mouth, but darnit, it doesn't always work. :)

And I'm not pushing one 3D app over another.  As you note, everyone has their reasons for liking one or another.  XSI is a very good competitor to C4D.  Max and LW3D are also, in their own ways.  All different, all different points of view and features.  I always put Maya in its own category with, say, Houdini.  The cost disparity and level of support therein are just not the same as C4D, XSI, LW, Max.  It is a shame that you are required to get Maya Unlimited to get hair and cloth sims - drives home the point that Maya is for studios, dedicated individuals using it for business, or rich people.  Module/plugin options are much better than that direction.

The reason that I support Cinema 4D is more happenstance from when I was looking into that first professional app, I did careful research - Max, Maya, C4D, LW3D were the choices for my price range at the time.  C4D and LW3D were too close to call so I did both.  Maya - expensive with learning curve like an ascending Blue Angel.  Max - somewhat expensive with learning curve and Windows only.  I was happy with both but used C4D more.  But the LW v8 fiasco put me off.  XSI later did a backflip that changed the market - reducing the price and releasing improved versions along with it.  Would still love to have that! :)

Yes, I've heard good things about XSI, too.  But I know very, very little about that program.

One phenomenon that I've noted in the last year or two is that C4D seems to have become especially popular with Poser 'gateway graduates' who are looking to move on to a higher-end 3D app.  Perhaps interPoser has had something to do with that--------->>>>>>>

Providing props and so forth to the voracious Poser content market is an additional incentive to get into highend 3D.  Hey -- some people even make a very good living at it.  Others make a nice supplemental income with it.

I am still looking forward to Poser Pro.

Quote - .

Wolf I know you used to use Carrara.  It seems you switched to C4d.  Why?

Please compare the following if possible:

Lip syncing methods?

What about if you want allot of figures in a scene?

what about render speed/quality?

thanks

I Got Carrara pro4 in desperation after Curious Labs (WHO???)
Scrammed and Left us MAC user with an OS9 version of the propack hosting plugins
and told us "buy a windows PC and  beg at the door of riess studio"
but I frankly HATED Carrara's Vestigial Kia Krause camera "navigation"
system.
whenever you made an imported poser figure as your camera target the camera
 refused to point any where except his toes

I could never get its lights to "Mix" Very Well
it sGI engine was agonizingly slow even compared to Vue easel
the Default made "orange" people.
honestly i Never got over the culture shock of leaving Cinemas tool set

but C6 pro looks very much improved. Congrats to DAZ Inc,

as far as Lip synch you can use the stand alone Mimic from DAZ and save thoses animated pose files
to ANY proper runtime library and IPP will load and apply them.

When a 3D mesh becomes a righteously defended personification of your personal desires It has become an IDOL and YOU have become its worshipper,slave and servant
-Tain-

'I'd even buy Interposer (Intraposer?  Enterposer?) -- one of those.  Based upon what some have said: it must cook gourmet meals & answer telephones, too.........."

No....it does'nt

it allows the functional  use of  poser content
in another app

and what it doe not bring from poser it generally does better  internally(cloth& hair)
like  or not that the standard the market demands

especially animators

if "hosting " for render only is all you can get then take it.

but at some point one has to cease an endles  quest of jumpimg between every app on the planet
trying to get a semi nekkid 'V" chick" to act right at double the speed in another program

IM still on poser6 and Cinema4D 9.2  .
MAC OS 10.3.9
im fine with my choices so be fine with yours

Cheers

When a 3D mesh becomes a righteously defended personification of your personal desires It has become an IDOL and YOU have become its worshipper,slave and servant
-Tain-

Quote -

and what it doe not bring from poser it generally does better  internally(cloth& hair)
like  or not that the standard the market demands

Speaking of which, how does Carrara do on cloth and hair? Hopefully faster/better than P6/7 dynamic cloth/hair?

The biggest reason I haven't bothered much (let's say "rarely") w/ dynamic cloth in Poser is the time involved in lashing it together. Since I don't do animations outside of just fun and games on my own dime, I can improvise and postwork.

Same story with hair... it's easier on the CPU to just use conforming bits.

Fact is, I haven't bought Carrara since 1.1, and was seriously considering upgrading to v.6  If it allows for most of what I think it does, I may well just get it when it arrives.

/P

Quote - Did anybody else notice how the press release only talks about "DAZ 3d content" not about poser content?

thats only DAZ marketing speek. C6 will handle Poser/studio content no matter who sells it or gives it away.

Thanks for the responses.

Dynamic hair will be new in C6.  For the hair here is a animation:
http://www.euqfiz.com.br/videos/dancetina.mov

Ther is an overview of the new features here that also show some pics with the hair.
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=63703

There will not be Dynamic cloth with C6 at first.  I understand they are working on the Dyn cloth system and will sell it as a plug in for very cheap when its done. 

Quote - > Quote - Did anybody else notice how the press release only talks about "DAZ 3d content" not about poser content?

thats only DAZ marketing speek. C6 will handle Poser/studio content no matter who sells it or gives it away.

I would hope that is true, unfortunatly in my experience you must take these things at face value

Quote - IM still on poser6 and Cinema4D 9.2  .
MAC OS 10.3.9
im fine with my choices so be fine with yours

Rest assured -- I am perfectly happy with my software choices.  Also -- check the dialog between the author of interPoser and myself.  We weren't arguing.  We were exchanging views -- while being able to disagree on some points without turning the matter into a heated exchange.  We even 'evolved' in our discussion to the point where we saw eye-to-eye on certain matters.  It was a give-and-take.  In addition: he kindly provided me with some quite helpful information along the way.  I find such an attitude on his part to be very impressive.  With both his tone and his approach -- he's definitely shown that he knows what it takes to win people over to his point of view.

He's impressed me as a right guy.  And that makes me more likely to look closely at his product.

Quote -
  The primary thing that's kept me away from MAX is its reported inability to provide an excellent render engine right out of the box without pricey add-ons. 

is Mental Ray not good enough?,that's been a part of 3dmax for several years now

I had not heard of the lightwave 8 fiasco. I currently use the 'Lightwave 8.5' mess, and remain unconfused by the way the tools are identified by names rather than mysterious icons (though, to tell the truth, the first three months of learning were solid hell.) Free plugins, in preference to pay plugins, might be a gripe to some. People gripe about anything. For example, I found Maxon’s Body Paint UI to be a confused mess. Despite touting compatibility with Lightwave, Maxon provides a plugin for version 7 that can’t read subpatches, and they refuse to update so I advise Lightwave users to stay away. Lightwave’s weaknesses are in UV mapping and the lack of a 3d paint function, but Right Hemisphere’s Deep Exploration bundle has fallen in price. Safe Harbor had it on sale for around $500, and it includes Deep Paint 3d and Deep UV. Also, Modo maps and textures, and it was developed by the originators of Lightwave who left NewTek some time ago.

It may very well be more than good enough.  For the information in the quotation that you've cited, I was going on the basis of rather detailed exchanges that I've read elsewhere in the forums.  But as we all know -- you can't believe everything that you read in the forums.

I have to bow to your experience and expertise on that one, Stone.  But I have seen the claim made -- on numbers of occasions -- that MAX needs an add-on renderer costing something in the neighborhood of $900 -- I don't recall for what purposes.  Please correct that information if it's wrong.

(Please note that I was defending MAX in the context of that remark. )

Quote - I had not heard of the lightwave 8 fiasco. I currently use the 'Lightwave 8.5' mess, and remain unconfused by the way the tools are identified by names rather than mysterious icons (though, to tell the truth, the first three months of learning were solid hell.) Free plugins, in preference to pay plugins, might be a gripe to some. People gripe about anything. For example, I found Maxon’s Body Paint UI to be a confused mess. Despite touting compatibility with Lightwave, Maxon provides a plugin for version 7 that can’t read subpatches, and they refuse to update so I advise Lightwave users to stay away. Lightwave’s weaknesses are in UV mapping and the lack of a 3d paint function, but Right Hemisphere’s Deep Exploration bundle has fallen in price. Safe Harbor had it on sale for around $500, and it includes Deep Paint 3d and Deep UV. Also, Modo maps and textures, and it was developed by the originators of Lightwave who left NewTek some time ago.

That's good information.  I'll add it to the mix in the 'database'.  Thanks.

didn't read all the prior messages, but rumours indicate one can use poser content in C6Pro, thus dispensing with poser 7/8 and its colossally slow renderer IMVHO. no word yet on the version of C6Pro to be burnt to the first boxed sets. be fair, tho. CL/e-f hadda start at ground zero with their rendering engine AFAIK. it ain't easy settin up all the linear algebra and matrices, don't ya know.

Quote - But I have seen the claim made -- on numbers of occasions -- that MAX needs an add-on renderer costing something in the neighborhood of $900 -- I don't recall for what purposes.  Please correct that information if it's wrong.

It's quite wrong in the fact that they claim you 'need' it..  MentalRay is about as good as it gets. The problem is in the user's knowledge of how to work it.  MentalRay is the same production-quality renderer used in Maya and XSI, and in fact XSI's core architecture itself is built around the MentalRay render engine, so that's how good it is.  There is no support for it in Cinema4d that I know of.

If for some reason you didn't like using MentalRay, then there's definitely a lot of other choices out there for Max, including Vray, Brazil, or FinalRender.  Vray is known to be much faster at rendering GI than MentalRay (at least without knowing how to use MR scripting to optimize your render pipeline, which most individual users don't know), so maybe that's what you've been reading about.

Many of the "plugin" renderers out there that are now making their way to other software did originally get their start with 3dsmax, simply because older versions of Max only provided scanline rendering, which was incredibly FAST for rendering still images or simple animations, but in itself wasn't really suitable for cenema-level production or Global Illumination renders, which the ArchViZ industry wanted/needed.  Cinema4D and Maya, for example, recently picked up FinalRender as a plugin for their software, and will soon join Max, Maya, and Truespace in acquiring the Vray renderer.  All of these incrediblly fast and high quality renderers got their start in Max.

For the person who suggested Max has a strange interface, I disagree there as well.  In fact, I turn around and say the same thing about Cinema.  Of all the highend apps, i think Max is the easiest to learn and use.  At least it was for me.  I never was fortunate enough to try all of them, but I did use Max, Cinema, and XSI for a short time.

As for buggy, well, I've heard this from some fellow Max users too.  If you're the type who likes to pile on all the tons of free plugins and addons available out there for Max, then you're going to eventually make it somewhat less stable.  Many of these plugins are not designed well, and cause crashes.  As for the app itself, it's always been one of the most stable for me over the past couple years.  I think I had one crash in the past few weeks, and yes, I was using a free plugin at the time it happened.  Go figure.

Thank you for that additional information.

You've helped to refresh my memory on the subject somewhat.  The issue was over the Brazil renderer.  Not being familiar with Max, I can't speak specifically to the particulars involved -- however, I do recall some individuals making the observation (rightly or wrongly) that native Max with no add-ins had limited render capabilities.

As I've likewise already indicated -- I am VERY familiar with AutoCAD.  And if that Autodesk brother/sister-app is anything to go by -- then my presumption would be that Max is an excellent program as well.  Also as I've already indicated: many in the industry seem to hold to this opinion.

I've heard the claim made elsewhere that C4D has a steep learning curve, too.......but that doesn't concern me: as it's a remark that I've heard made at one time or another in regards to every highend application that's out there. 

As a side note -- I find it fascinating that so much useful information concerning various highend applications can be gleaned in the Poser forum.  By no means is that a negative thing: I think that it's very, very positive.  I just find it amusing........"highend" wasn't supposed to happen anywhere near something called Poser.     Yet "highend" seems to be happening in here more and more often.

With the advent of Poser Pro -- that state of affairs might become more and more the norm.  Good?  Bad?  IMO, it's all good.

There remains plenty for the hobbyist.  They might even find themselves........getting interested in doing more.

The difference with some of us is that we have no intentions of abandoning Poser as we travel elsewhere.  In fact: we'll plan on taking Poser along with us on the trip.

Quote - As a side note -- I find it fascinating that so much useful information concerning various highend applications can be gleaned in the Poser forum.  By no means is that a negative thing: I think that it's very, very positive.  I just find it amusing........"highend" wasn't supposed to happen anywhere near something called Poser.     Yet "highend" seems to be happening in here more and more often.

With the advent of Poser Pro -- that state of affairs might become more and more the norm.  Good?  Bad?  IMO, it's all good.

There remains plenty for the hobbyist.  They might even find themselves........getting interested in doing more.

The difference with some of us is that we have no intentions of abandoning Poser as we travel elsewhere.  In fact: we'll plan on taking Poser along with us on the trip.

I got tuned into the Poser thing after a friend of mine suggested that making models to sell to Poser users might be a decent way to make extra cash.  I haven't decided yet if I'm going to take that advice, because so far I don't see evidence that it is.  Especially judging from the reactions in this thread, it seems anything priced according to the work someone puts into a model is too much.  There seems to be a strong reverse bias towards modellers here, in that modelling isn't viewed as an artform, but rather just something like being in the business of making 'supplies' for an artist.  This is contradictory to almost every other highend forum I've been too, by the way.  I'm not really interested in putting my heart and soul into a model only to have to sell it for $5.

Plus, I'm not sure Poser makes the best use of models in the way it requires them to be rigged.  The tri-axis falloff zone skinning Poser uses seems to play hell on the overall appearance of an otherwise good model.  That's why I'm interested in this Pro thing.  Maybe it will incorporate more industry-standard weight mapping technology, which I believe would be much better.

It might be more accurate to call some of the attitudes backlash that reverse bias; there have been all too many modellers who have come flaming through the Poser community calling users thieves and liars and cheaters solely because they didn't make the content themselves. I'm an animator; mesh modeling doesn't turn my crank, so for me, a properly rigged useful model is a resource. An actor. You aren't going to be able to charge Turbosquid prices in the Poser community, true. But quality does get to charge more. I point you at Anton Kisiel's excellent Apollo Maximus. While now a free download (due more to Anton deciding to get out of for pay content modelling and doing as a beloved hobby again), when it was on sale it was the most expensive single purchase figure that existed (and might still hold the record). Apollo had a learning curve, as Anton strayed off the standard rigging trail to get more functionality, but it is incredible example of not only modelling, but what this low cost app we use can do with a little creativity. I have hopes for rigging improvements in Pro myself; either weightmapping or runtime sub-D tesselating at the joints. eF has been doing a fairly good job of adding functionality, and better joint action has been one of the most requested. The big problem is figuring out a way to implement better tech without breaking the 2 or 3 terabytes of content out there dependant on the older tech.

Quote - I got tuned into the Poser thing after a friend of mine suggested that making models to sell to Poser users might be a decent way to make extra cash.  I haven't decided yet if I'm going to take that advice, because so far I don't see evidence that it is.  Especially judging from the reactions in this thread, it seems anything priced according to the work someone puts into a model is too much.  There seems to be a strong reverse bias towards modellers here, in that modelling isn't viewed as an artform, but rather just something like being in the business of making 'supplies' for an artist.  This is contradictory to almost every other highend forum I've been too, by the way.  I'm not really interested in putting my heart and soul into a model only to have to sell it for $5.

...and there you have it, folks. There was once a time when volume made up for price; back when the RMP here had less than 300 "merchants". There was a time when a solid modeller with an eye on the community could rake in a solid living from just selling stuff here. Now - it's a flood. Just like a Gold Rush, most of the money has been made; there is still some to be made, but very few will reach the heights once held by the 'big hitters' of 5 years ago. Of course, that doesn't stop the masses from giving it a go. My sadness about it isn't on the existence of mesh-mongers and such, but in the fact that Poserdom (at least here at Rendo) has gone from "how can I really push this program to get some kick-ass art out of it?" to "Hi! I'm new here and want to make lots o' money. How do I do that with this thing?" The rewards of mesh-making have gone from seeing it used in renders, to cashing monthly checks from the RMP. I'm not picking on you per se, but what you wrote illustrates exactly what it all has become. If D|S's dynamic cloth engine turns out like I think it will, then there will be a lot of dissapointed mesh-mongers around here, and an even greater flood... ...and what will that leave behind? /P

"this thread, it seems anything priced according to the work someone puts into a model is too much.  There seems to be a strong reverse bias towards modellers here, in that modelling isn't viewed as an artform, but rather just something like being in the business of making 'supplies' for an artist."

I'm one of the few around here that views things the way they should be, imo. For me the modeler or content creator is the real artist, the user using the models or content is only a mere user, using someone elses art to create an image with it. Imo the end user doesn't create art at all, he's just using someone else's art to create an image.

*"This is contradictory to almost every other highend forum I've been too, by the way."*That's why poser is a breed apart and you only see things like this happening here. At other forums Poser users aren't viewed upon as artsts, since in truth anyone can use Poser or D/S to create an image, which most around here refer to as art. You just buy some content, add a few lights and voila you've got your own 'piece of art'. Some even dare to call it 3D modeling....... 

I still think it's funny, people here go to great lengths to tell you why they are artists, while the content creator is denied to be an artist. The poser community has created it's own reality and they have too, otherwise no one would take them serious. At least here we can pretend to be something, while in reality were not.

All we really do is cut piece out of a Van Gogh, a piece of a Rembrandt, a piece of a Van Meer and so on, stick them on a piece of paper and tell the world we made this piece of art and call ourselves artist....... no wonder most of the world doesn't take us to serious ;-)

What is a 'mesh monger'?

Quote - What is a 'mesh monger'?

I........don't know.

Somone who lusts after meshes.........?

Ah......where some miss the point of Poser is in failing to realize that the vast majority of Poser users are 3D Weekend Warriors -- i.e. hobbyists.  And there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with being a 3D hobbyist.  It's how most of us in here got our start in this game.

Weekend golfers can't do what the pros do, either.  But that doesn't therefore make their favorite leisure activity somehow illegitimate.  If they want to go out and spend a few hours on a Saturday afternoon knocking golf balls into the nearby woods along with the best -- then more power to 'em.  They aren't harming anyone.  Nor are they defiling the 'purity' of the High Art of golf through their amateurish playing.  They are just having fun -- and no one has the right to tell them that they can't do that because they aren't as good as Tiger Woods is.

If someone wants to buy props in the Marketplace -- or for that matter just take freestuff -- and then cobble together a scene, render it out & post it in the gallery for others to enjoy -- they've done absolutely nothing wrong.  Some might look down on such activity: they probably also look down on the fools who play touch football (I'm talking about American-style 'football') at a picnic because those people don't play for the NFL.

As for vendors in the Marketplace -- some of them approach the job of being a vendor as a part-time endeavor which they do purely for fun.  Others view it as a way to finance their Poser addiction.  Still others make good, solid supplemental incomes off of their efforts -- and some even make a full living from it.  It's nowhere near as bad as a few would have us to believe.

But one thing that all of those multitudes of good, solid vendors do for the rest of us -- their hard work supplies the very life's blood which makes this website's existence possible.  So even if you never buy anything from a single vendor in the Marketplace.........you have benefited hugely from their labors: and you owe them a debt of gratitude.

BTW - volume DOES make up for high price.  It's a business model which has succeeded again and again.  Toyota is a much bigger company than Rolls Royce is.