I have been away from my home, my PC, the Poser world and this forum for a while, and I am looking at the marketplace right now.

Am I wrong or, at first look, the great majority of V4 characters look more or less the same? I mean, with V3 there was, in my opinion, much more diversity. Now they seem just slight variations of the same basic structure. Generally speaking, all the characters of the same vendor seem like sisters, and characters of different vendors seem at least cousins, so to speak.

There are some great and notable exceptions and I have found SOME great individual morphs, but not so many as with V3.

It's just because the V4 is new on the market? Or it's harder to customize her?
 
Giorgio

Many of the skins for sale are developed from the same reference material.  Some of those that stand out with some uniqueness are Mariny's, Syltermaids,  Rebelmommy's, Rhiannon's, and Sarsa's. 

I do not mean just the textures... I mostly mean the facial morphs. To see if a skin texture is good and/or different from another one, you have to examine it in detail. To see if two faces are similar, you just have to look at the preview pictures...

Giò

Oh, sorry, I don't spend any time looking at other people's face morphs since I can't think of any situation I'd ever use them myself.

Attached Link: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=61552&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Quote - I think many of the characters on the marketplace play it a bit too safe with the morphs.

Agreed.  At first, it was just small variations of the default face all over the marketplace, now it's that same heart-shaped (wide cheekbones, small jaw, and pointy chin) face that I see all the time.   Having said that though, I too prefer to create my own morphs.

Quote - here is a thread over at DAZ which challenges people to make a different character out of V4, I think there are quite a few really different faces there. Some people said the same thing about V3 when she came out in comparison to V2, then they got to working with her and realized that there was plenty of versitility in her. I think that people really need to turn dials and see what they can come up with as they did in the above thread, becouse while V4 is very neutral in her default state, this in conjunction with the extensive collection of facial morphs in the Morphs+ package gives her a lot more possibilities to create truely original characters. I have to agree with pjz99, I just see no reason to depend on other people's Dial spinning when that is part of the fun of poser, creating your own character. I think many of the characters on the marketplace play it a bit too safe with the morphs.

LOL I was thinking the same thing! When V3 came out all you heard was how you could pick V3 instantly from any rendered image and no matter what you did V3 looked the same.

It is the Nose and Eyes of V4.... rarely are those altered. I think that was the case with V3 originally. Oddly, I read something somewhere that people first look at the Nose, then the eyes, followed by the forehead, if looking or to the mouth if the person they are looking at is talking to them.

(Human Facial Scanning or something like that)

I am not sure if I am the only one, but I always thought the V4 had Aiko's Nose and Lips. I sometimes have to look at the Product Description to see what Figure it is for when looking at the face in some cases. Never had that issue with V3 and A3.

Quote - LOL I was thinking the same thing! When V3 came out all you heard was how you could pick V3 instantly from any rendered image and no matter what you did V3 looked the same.

For the most part, you still can, for any Poser figure, because people don't really mess with them too much.

There is a Free Micheal Jackson morph in the free area here at rendo...

I agree with you that they all look similar. And not only that, although beautiful women, they nearly all look over the age of 30, some over the age of 40yrs old which I'm sure is not the intent by the look of what they are wearing in the promo images. Funny that nIles mentioned Michael Jackson. that does not show how diverse she is, because I tried to make a really beautiful young woman out of V4 and I inadvertantly made Micahel Jackson. She has a sort of sqarish jaw, big chin and her lips don't change all that much with morphing (except to look more collagenized) unless you use the free lip morphs by pjz99m which obviously vendors can't do if they are selling her as they want to sell a complete character and not send the user tof ree stuff to finish her off. I think she is a difficult face to work with. V3 is much prettier and more diverse. Love esther

She can smile much more nicely than V3. In fact V4 has somem really lovely expressions. Too bad that daz didn't make more facial morphs for the poor woman.

Here is somthing a bit different..
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1504995

like an old michael jackson. She is very good for a few things. Older women, and maralyn munro. But she isn't good for making young pretty women.

Hi, I'm not saying the characters are all ugly but if you look at them all in the MP they certainly do look like sisters and cousins to me. That one looks nice, and if I had to guess her age I'd say about 30. Love esther

Oh I agree with you about the marketplace stuff.  However above - that's a pretty well-preserved 30 ;)

30 is still really a young woman. I would love to see how that character looks with a little of your free lip morph added in (hopefully not like michael jackson) Love esther

I think you really start to see V4 limitations when you try to make a particular character. Remember the time I was trying to make a V4 look like my favourite V3 character? We tried and tried and with only moderate success. Now if V4 had an adequate amount of facial morphs it would not have been that difficult.

here's about 20 mins of morphing.. top is v4 and bottom is one I just did.

I still wish there were more morphs. I thought V4 was going to be so much better than V3. Well she probably is in terms of expressions and posing. But I find her facial morphs disappointing. Oh and the cross talk thing they have with the clothes. I wanted to put on a tshirt, then the new denem jacket I bought at daz over the top (designed to be worn without the top of course), but I couldn't make the jacket morphmore than the V4 base settings because the dials on the clothes seemed to be slaved to the V4 figures settings. Love esther

Quote - She can smile much more nicely than V3. In fact V4 has somem really lovely expressions. Too bad that daz didn't make more facial morphs for the poor woman.

Despite the fact her limbs bent oddly, V3 was a joy to work with. I agree she had a broad range.

Your post about her smiles, reminded me of some morphs I made for her inintial release but were never added to the package by Daz before she was released to the public, mainly because I built the face into the smile, which I think is sometime neccesary. As we all know, a smile is more than just a mouth shape. I just added too much face shaping. Hey it was the makeup artist in me I guess.

Here are a few of the smiling faces for V3. I found these old renders and I think I have the obj files somewhere. I'll see if I can find them. You might recognize the second pic as the face I used for many of the "V3 Morphing ..blah blah" product renders.

V4's partial issue in diversity is she doesn't have quite the same types of morphs as her predecessor. And her eyes are the wrong scale. Too big and wide; like Judy's or Golum's were

Quote - > Quote - She can smile much more nicely than V3. In fact V4 has somem really lovely expressions. Too bad that daz didn't make more facial morphs for the poor woman.

Despite the fact her limbs bent oddly, V3 was a joy to work with. I agree she had a broad range.

Your post about her smiles, reminded me of some morphs I made for her inintial release but were never added to the package by Daz before she was released to the public, mainly because I built the face into the smile, which I think is sometime neccesary. As we all know, a smile is more than just a mouth shape. I just added too much face shaping. Hey it was the makeup artist in me I guess.

Here are a few of the smiling faces for V3. I found these old renders and I think I have the obj files somewhere. I'll see if I can find them. You might recognize the second pic as the face I used for many of the "V3 Morphing ..blah blah" product renders.

V4's partial issue in diversity is she doesn't have quite the same types of morphs as her predecessor. And her eyes are the wrong scale. Too big and wide; like Judy's or Golum's were

Comparing Judy and Gollum is unfair to Gollum.  :biggrin:

Bang on the money about the eyes, though.  That was the very first thing I noticed about V4.

lol. Poor Judy.

Those are nice pics. If you have any V4 morphs you want to sell or give away Anton, please do. the more things we can give V4 the better. Imagine what a fantastic V4 we would have had if Anton had stayed at DAZ! Love esther

Certainly, V4 is closer to the right path. The key is tailoring the loops to the actually muscles of the face/body. Wish I were a talented modeler or I'd be doing it myself. The early human figs were modeled for the artist's convenience and it shows. Modelers are now started to look at the problem the right way. Follow the muscle groups and the morphing takes care of itself. Look at the geometry.

lol esther.    I don't see that happening, but if it does I'll IM you first. :)

the main issue with modelling muscle paths is that there are other layers of detail that exist above and over the muscle in many key areas of the body. The back for instance never looks the same depending on the pose. Committing to specific paths binds you to specific shapes.

I think the key it to follow those paths and only those muscle paths that are consistant and not obscured.

Another example is the face. Many face modelled based on facial muscle, but with some characters, you would model to follow wrinkle gravity, flesh drape, etc which are often quite incompatible with muscle paths.

I think ideally, someday we will have dynamic flesh anchored over muscle forms.

Quote - I think ideally, someday we will have dynamic flesh anchored over muscle forms.

Taking it one step further, how about a completely accurate implementation of bones with anatomically correct limits, which in turn support a deformable musculature which is covered by deformable fatty tissue and finally dynamic skin?

May seem cumbersome at present but considering the development in personal computers, such a thing could be a reality for hobbyists in a while.

Well we will definately need new software. Like photoshop, more layers, more memory. 

Under that design, then everything becomes dynamic as, perhaps inevitablably, it all needs to be.

And people will still be posting NVITWAS pics. :)

Quote - And people will still be posting NVITWAS pics. :) 

nah. I think this is the last one named Vicki. 

Besides that is old school.  The new vogue has definately been....
Doe Eyed Aiko Faeries Roaming Among Postworked Trees

Doe Eyed Aiko Faeries Roaming Among Postworked Trees you are so right!!! Aiko can be made very beautiful though - and young.

Quote - Doe Eyed Aiko Faeries Roaming Among Postworked Trees you are so right!!! Aiko can be made very beautiful though - and young.

Aiko is a nice looking model but she still has the comedy joints of V3.

@ Anton - why do you believe V4 is the last of the line?  Is it because of the relatively poor and somewhat negative reaction to the model?

Quote - @ Anton - why do you believe V4 is the last of the line?  Is it because of the relatively poor and somewhat negative reaction to the model?

Well.. everything that has a beginning also has an end.  Even the most popular lines are renamed or retired to avoid seeming stale or out of date. I think there will be other females, but not another version named "Vicki". Obviously they looked abroad for ideas for V4. A V5 could be a massive disaster killing more than her own franchise without more comtatibility.

I know someone will mention brand naming, but too many version numbers can lead to dissappointment in customers who remember the details of each version and how much it cost for each swtich.

The community has already said they do not want another 3 years of endless "we morphed you a new figure" unimeshes, refits, resales, redo's and limited backwards compatibility. V4 was sort of a wet blanket on the thriving Aiko franchise. V4 was too late and then crashed the Aiko3 party, in a manner of speaking. It doesn't foster goodwill when a company squashes it's own competing franchise, expecting everyone to drop everything and switch.

Truth be told, they should have combined Aiko4 and V4; kept the Aiko name brand and retired the Vicki name. Aiko3 was a real success story the community embraced and chose her as their next Mil female. V4 was rather forced fed.

Someone said it best: "Version 4? Seen it before."

Problem with the current Aiko is her mouth - when opened up is just scary!!  Buck teeth and they are just huge if your using her in her Realistic mode, which when I use her I do!!  As for replacing the teeth or resizeing them.  I've tried it all, I just don't like the results enough.  So closed mouth and pouty is about all Aiko can do

I have to admit I really do prefer the way they have V4's morphs all hooked so that when she smiles it affects more than just the mouth.  It may not be the most realistic smile in the world but I do like how the face follows a bit more naturally!  V4' may have big doe eyes and they may not be centered correctly but I think much better over Aiko, esp with the improved smile the mouth when opened up does not scare you away from the monitor!!! :lol:

Quote - V4' may have big doe eyes and they may not be centered correctly but......:

lol Richard. You lead off with "they may not be centered correctly" and then you follow up with a "but" !?! 

Just was funny the way you phrased it.

What poor reception?  V4 isn't unversally embraced by everybody, which is fine, but obviously is selling like gangbusters.  I don't have access to the hard numbers, but I'd think the already-successful content creators would make what earns them the best money, and from what I've seen (not just here, but many different vendor sites) Aiko is not where the best money is.

The oversized eyes thing isn't difficult to change/fix, nor is the spacing of the eyes in V4.1; EyeSize and EyeWidth.

I don't think there is nearly as much hype about V4 as there was about V3 when that first came out.

Nota bene: I wasn't around for V3's arrival, so color the rest of this comment accordingly. There is definitely a huge "complaining is kewl" mindset I've seen, so I honestly have to wonder how many people are complaining about some things just to hear themselves type and how many have actual problems with the items they're complaining about. "It's not to my taste" is not a product flaw, for example, but that doesn't stop people from appearing in threads about any given item to snark the item for that reason alone. "It's not for the figure I prefer" is also not a product flaw, but plenty of times a product gets trashed for that, too. It's something to consider, really, with any of the complaints flying around. (Not talking about this thread specifically, but the general trend, in case anyone is unclear about that.) I don't know if this was the case or not for V3's debut. Re: this thread specifically, I'm just going to shut up, since I did a pair of sisters with V4 on purpose. cough

Yes, those same comments happened when V3 was released. People said they liked V2 better and that the morph injection system was painful. But I think there has been very much more complaints about V4. Yes, it might just be because we have become a whingy bunch, but my theory is that when a better model comes along, people will talk about V4 the same way they talk about judy or the p4 dork. And some people will remain attached to their V4s too. V4 looks beautiful in some renders. Nonetheless many of the V4s in the MP do all look like sisters or cousins. That won't stop me using he though. Especially with the wonderful pjz99 in freetuff. That really improves her versatility. Oh and there's a rumour rDNA might bring out some custom morphs for her face. They already have some premade custom faces for V4. Love esther

To be honest DAZ did a couple of things I strongly disagree with, in V4, that make it techically difficult to get V4 OUT of Poser and into another app, which aren't problems for other figures (depending on magnets for boob movement and a few other moves is the big one).

Esther if you haven't updated from V4 to V4.1 you're really missing out.  The lip morphs I did are pretty much obsolete, and there are a lot of other new morphs in the face besides.  The bugged morph data in the irises appears to be fixed.  They didn't do anything about the monkey toes though.

I have to agree with pjz99 (not about her morphs being obsolete, 'cause I don't think they are) but that V4.1 definitely has some major improvements. It's far easier to get a look that doesn't scream 'look what I just got at the collagen discount mart!' now, thankfully, with some of the new additions. chuckle

Now i am wondering if i mis installed her because she is in a separate runtime which you're not supposed to do, but i thought i corrected for it by moving the iDAZ folder to main P7. pjz99 r u sure about that because i did install V4.1 and i still don't think there are similar lip morphs to the ones u did. also i am not seeing that lip variation in the MP lips promo pics. especially the lower lip which looks like bigger, smaller, wider, narrower variations of the same thing - no divit down the middle with bulges on each side that give the lips a more youthful appearance, nor is there a trapezoid look like we could do with v3. love esther

Well if you like my morphs you're of course free to keep using them!  :D

I suspect like we've been talking about through the thread, people just don't get too crazy with character face morphs ^_^

Attached Link: Victoria 4.1 - forum FAQ

I think you need to re-install her completely to the Poser Runtime folder.   There was a long, drawn out thread here and over at DAZ explaining it all.  There are specific files that need to be there and when installed paths I think are written.  So if you just move the folders then you mess up the paths and so Poser doesn't work with her correctly. 

It's one of the things I happen to agree with others about in that DAZ seems to be making it harder to use her outside of Studio and VERY soon Carrara 6!!

The FAQ link provided above will answer some other questions for you. 

Bottom line is I would go through and remove as much of the V4.1 files manually as you can like Runtime:libraries:!DAZ and Runtime:libraries:Characters - Victoria 4.1.cr2 & V4.1 to V3.cr2 and their corresponding  png's!  Or better yet just move them to a temporary location and then re install the entire V4.1 upgrade directly to the Poser Runtime and see if that doesn't improve things!!!   That way you can just put them back if it still not any better. 

You may want to read through this thread to see if some of the info helps you out:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2707483&page=1

i havent installed v4.1 yet - i was ticked off they had to "update" her so soon after release.  her files are still sitting on my hard drive, and every time i go to install her, i get irritated all over again.

i dont know if my little trick with V4.0 would work with 4.1 or not.. but i install everything to the proper directories, then copy/paste any folders i want into my own personal runtime folder - 4.0 works like a charm.  She's in poser's runtime & my external one, and both work ok.  i got tired of waiting 5 minutes for my computer to catch up when i switched runtimes (this was back with V3)