Hello all. 

This thread is intended to encourage Renderosity members to think about comments before posting them.  We are an Art community. If you are a concientious artist, who wants to improve your skill, then receiving construstive criticism is a powerful way see your errors, and find a way to correct them, thus improving the quality of your work.

In our community , there are many very talented and well acclaimed artists among us.There are many more intermediate and novice artists. You know who you are. The more advanced artists here got to their skill level by studying, following tutorials, Going to schools of different types, and following advice from well meaning commenters who offered them constructive criticism.

It is understood that many of you in reality, may not be interested in improving on anything...This is because you are not really an artist. A true artist cares about his/her work to the extent that they have a desire to improve and recognise the need to do so. 

You don't really know whether another 'artist' (beginner, intermediate, or advanced) here is a sincere, conscientious person who truly seeks to improve their work. It could be damaging to their developement as an artist if you blindly shower them with praise and acclaim. 

It can be upsetting to artists who truly are more advanced to see people who are mere beginners and rather unskilled getting hords of comments like "fantastic artwork ! +5", or "excellent render,it looks so realistic!", or how about this one "Unusual and beauty done..bravisssimo!V:DDD.HUgsxxx". 

Showing support and wanting to encourage a beginner/intermediate artist is a praisworthy intention, but those kinds of comments on their work, which are given with no thought towards suggesting improvement, or offering advice on aspects of how to acheive a better result are really not helpful at all...Rather they are hurtful, and contribute to holding them back in pregressively improving their quality and skill. How will they ever improve, if that is their desire, if they think they are better than they really are because of misguided praise? 

Rating images requires objectivity also.The rating system here is meaningless if you automaticly hand out five stars for just anything...If a work is poor, with obvious little skill or effort, do they really deserve a high rating? Why not hand out more stars for work that has effort, skill and creativity. Hand out less stars for the lack thereof...Don't give people a high rating just because they are your Renderosity buddy,or it seems the popular thing to do.

You might want to check out the forum at this link.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showforum.php?forum_id=12474

Insincere comments, embellished comments, outright lies etc have been a long standing complaint by some.  So the "Critique Forum"  and "Critique Gallery' were created for those who actually want honest feed back on their images.

There are some who just want to upload "pretty pictures" to their gallery and have others look at them. They aren't interested in becoming Rembrandt.

I suggest we elect a panel of judges to rate art here. lol! There should be no room for this kind of encouragement and false happiness provoking praise on what is considered artwork done in a begginer program by the high end app minded. Then there is trash verses treasure. One artists trash is another artists treasure. Then there is the kind hearted who just don't feel like dashing a budding artists work on the rocks and telling them it's crap and all the poses, lighting and materials could have been better presented when they're still scratching their head as to how. If you are an excellent artist then I'm sure you know that already. You can look at the comments made and realize that folks are being friendly and/or making friends with these overly kind comments. Then there is the thoery that maybe the 5 stars was awarded for the effort involved at the skill level presented. To fairly judge art one must fit into a catagory like begginer, entermediate, proffessional. What might be crap work for a proffessional is excellent work for a begginer. Open your mind once again and see that then there must be a grading system followed by a pecentage of credits as an end result. My fellow artist,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is just taking it way to far if you ask me. I like things the way they are. See ya,

dogor.

also many of the members here are retired and post here as a way of communicating with others, they will only ever give and get complementory comments, they are also some of Rendo's best customers and/or vendors, that will never change, and why should it?

Maybe it's my imagination but I'm sure I saw a slightly different version of this thread a couple of hours ago.

Anyhow, in the spirit of participation and just to be contentious, since it's September:

First, define art.  I mean, define it in a measurable, totally objective way.  You can't.  Nobody can.

To the OP - your post is what's known round here as "A dead horse".  If you want meaningful criticism, participate in the Critique forum. 

Your definition of a true artist is narrow and subjective.  There's no real documented evidence that Picasso, Dali, Vermeer, etc ad nauseum had any desire to improve, or recognized the need to do so, beyond having gained a reasonable grasp of technical ability.  "Improve" is such a nebulous concept when applied to art that it has absolutely no measurable meaning.  Did Picasso Improve when he painted his Cubist stuff?  A good many people believe he got worse.  Others saw it as revolutionary.

Defining improvement in terms of CGI usually means developing technical abilities and/or gaining the skills necessary to overcome the limitations of the software.  Which makes for great looking images but not necessarily anything of artistic merit.  To illustrate that further, I direct you to my gallery.  There are some really well executed images in there (not the best I have seen but good nonetheless) which are devoid of any artistic or emotional content.  There are others which, while not technically as good, have more art and emotion than you could shake a stick at.

Yeah, I think some stuff was deleted from his post, and my reply was deleted entirely. 
Strange, since I said nothing offensive. :) First time I've ever had a post deleted, I feel
rather privleged. :)

Greywolf

samtherepy"To the OP - your post is what's known round here as "A dead horse".  If you want meaningful criticism, participate in the Critique forum. "
 i didnt post this thread because I am seeking constructive criticism. It was written to encourage others to make their comments more meaningful, and offer others suggestions on ways to improve their images. Is no one here of the opinion that someone who wants to improve their work, would benefit from meaningful comments which offer constructive criticism? 
**
Here's my definition of art samtherepy:
****Art
1.  creation of beautiful things: the creation of beautiful or thought-provoking works, for example, in painting, music, or writing 
2.  beautiful objects: beautiful or thought-provoking works produced through creative activity 
3.  branch of art: a branch or category of art, especially one of the visual arts 
4.  artistic skill: the skill and technique involved in producing visual representations 
5.  creation by humans: creation by human endeavor rather than by nature  
6.  ability: the skill or ability to do something well **

**This definition seems to support my above statement that real art involves a desire to improve and be good at what you are doing.those artists you mentioned did develope their skills, and had teachers or fellow artists who helped them along.

If you have no desire to do well at art, then you are not really an artist.Artists have passion for their work that leads them to improve in what they do and be inspired to do well...**

First time I tried to read this thread (the first time it gotposted), I was too late and it had been deleted. Having read it this time, I sshalpass on without making any comments since, as the OP suggested, it is harmful to someone who clearly needs to improve their work to diginify their efforts with any form of support.

JonTheCelt

Yeah, I was in the process of replying to the first thread, hit submit and got the error message that I wasn't authorized to post to the moderators forum.

This dead horse used to be a routinely hot topic, but I think with the advent of the critique forum it's going to garner a much tamer reaction. If you want true critique, use the Critique forum and then the social commentators can happily socialize.

I do wonder though, was this posted to all the fora or just the Poser forum?

Well, I am not an Artist. Or even an artist. I just like to make pictures. I've known ever since grade school that I have no artistic talent, I never could draw as well as some of the others. Whether I could have learned with encouragement and practice, I don't know. But now I have an outlet tfor the things I imagine in my head and I take joy in that.

That does not mean I would not want to improve, I do. And I think I have, a little. I would not rate my work very high and therefore I don't take the (very few) praising comments very seriously. To me they just say I did something that pleased someone, which is nice. I would not show a picture that didn't give me a sense of accomplishment, even if it is trying out a new technique for the first time and no-one else can know that.

Every time I submit a picture, I live in fear of being told what horrible crap it is and how I am making those good artist who created the content I used look bad due to my incompetence. I have had some comments about the failings of my pictures and I am actually grateful, they were not made in a mean way. What I would wish from a critique is that in addition to saying what is wrong there'd also be a suggestion how to possibly fix it. Sometimes I might not agree with the opinion, but I certainly consider what was said and why.

I guess what I am trying to say is that even though I am not a 'true artist', I have the right to exist and enjoy the creation process.

Get ready, you veteran forum readers. Here it comes:
I love Greywolf's avatar picture.
There. Got that bit of kitty cat bidness out of my system, and I feel better.

Quote - **Here's my definition of art samtherepy:
****Art
1.  creation of beautiful things: the creation of beautiful or thought-provoking works, for example, in painting, music, or writing 
2.  beautiful objects: beautiful or thought-provoking works produced through creative activity 
3.  branch of art: a branch or category of art, especially one of the visual arts 
4.  artistic skill: the skill and technique involved in producing visual representations 
5.  creation by humans: creation by human endeavor rather than by nature  
6.  ability: the skill or ability to do something well **

**This definition seems to support my above statement that real art involves a desire to improve and be good at what you are doing.those artists you mentioned did develope their skills, and had teachers or fellow artists who helped them along.

If you have no desire to do well at art, then you are not really an artist.Artists have passion for their work that leads them to improve in what they do and be inspired to do well...**

Definitions 1 and 2 are purely subjective, since Damien Hirst produces work that most people would call ugly or replusive.  So have Dali, Picasso and Goya.  Definition 3 is a description of a category.  Defintion 4 is the descritption of artistry, not art.  5 could apply to a plane, bike, suppository, condom or shoe. 6 is a repeat of 4.  

Not one of the above defines "art" in the context of what is generally discussed in "Is this Art?", which proves my point.  Art is a subjective thing.

Now, as for skills... sure, I'm down with that.  Always have been, always will be trying to improve.  Does that make me an artist?  The only thing I could say for sure is it makes me a good craftsman.

positive comments will encourage the ones with real talent to persevere. if that means praising everybody else as well, so be it. they may be fully aware of the deficiencies of their renders. they'll develop the same as others in the past, if encouraged properly.

*I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it - Supreme Court...;)

*One big reason is that some people can't take any type of criticism, no matter how minor. I still have bruises from trying to offer helpful advice, especially when I see something I can do that they haven't..sometimes I've seen people do things I don't know how to  do (mainly the Poser4 manual, chapters 2-Index..;), and I'll drop a not-so-pointed hint, which has been awarded karma by them responding..;)

some folks get 'amen corners' (as we say down here), people who have added the 'artist' (or whatever you want to use there..;), and like what they see. that's part of what you're seeing.

Some folks, much rarer, will know you can do better, and will often point it out..;) Treasure them..;)

Quote - Some folks, much rarer, will know you can do better, and will often point it out..;) Treasure them..;)

That's why I always have "Critical comments" allowed on my pics and that's why I use the Critique forum.

It's always so encouraging to see an artist take the time from their own self-improvement to exhort other artists to greatness.

Very generous if you ask me.

• Rick

Quote - First, define art.  I mean, define it in a measurable, totally objective way.  You can't.  Nobody can.

Art is a very individual and subjective thing. What appeals to one person doesn't appeal to someone else. It's a unique phenomena and can't really be explained, and as the old addage states "there is no accounting for taste".

You can take a toilet seat, paint it black and white stripes and hang it from a cherry tree and call it art. It's not what I would call art, but someone does.

Some years ago where I live some woman got a huge government grant for some kind of art show. What was it? She poured buckets of pig blood on a floor and rolled around in it.

That same artist gathered up carcasses of dead rabbits and strung them on trees claimed it was "a study in putrification". It was truly disgusting and generated loads of controversy. Yet it was considered "art"; she even got more government money in order to do it. Did I like it? No. Did I go see it? No. But I respect her right to express her art in whatever manner she chooses, and it's not my place to tell her how to do that.

Another "artist" got a grant for some king of lottery ticket showing. He bought instant lottery tickets and sat at a table and opened them while people watched. Now is that art? Not to me, but according to the art coucil where I live it was because they gave him money to  fund his crazy show.

Quote - It's always so encouraging to see an artist take the time from their own self-improvement to exhort other artists to greatness.

Very generous if you ask me.

• Rick

:lol:

*'Some years ago where I live some woman got a huge government grant for some kind of art show. What was it? She poured buckets of pig blood on a floor and rolled around in it.'

What some people will do for that free government money huh? :)

• Rick

As halloween approaches, dead horse floggings increase... 
I still haven't gotten around modelling that dead horse flogger I've been promissing!

Note to self: Must do another issue of Poser Forum Non-Weekly

XOXOXOXOXOXOXO~~~HUGGGSSSSSS'Y'ALLL~~~XOXOXOXOXOXOXO
:tt2:  ducking and running  ---------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>

Quote -   i didnt post this thread because I am seeking constructive criticism. It was written to encourage others to make their comments more meaningful, and offer others suggestions on ways to improve their images. Is no one here of the opinion that someone who wants to improve their work, would benefit from meaningful comments which offer constructive criticism? 

There are few things that you are neglecting to take into account...

Jumping in the forum and making a post that comes across as a complaint about how people post gallery comment is not very likely to be encouraging. For one, you really don't know how many people (of the ones that aren't posting satisfactory comments) are in here, and how many are open to hearing your opinion, and how many of them actually have time, and knowledge to give what you may consider a meaningful comment.

The blurb you posted about what you consider art contains a number of higly subjective points of view... Beautiful for example, is in the eyes of the beholder. You'll find most men consider a female boob beautiful. Personally I see nothing beautiful about it (I have a pair, and they are rather annoying to lug around).
There are many other things that one person will consider beatiful, and someone else will hate. (Get the point?)

Another error many people make is to neglect the value of encouraging and cheering comments. Let's say I see a friend post a picture, and I happen to know they've improved this or that detail they've been working on, and I don't have time or energy to give them a long version of a 'great job', who are you to tell me (or anyone else for that matter) how they should comment.

You ask: *"Is no one here of the opinion that someone who wants to improve their work, would benefit from meaningful comments which offer constructive criticism?"
*Sure, it's beneficial. Constructive critique takes time effort and knowledge, and some communicating tact to offer. Not the easiest thing to do.
the issue isn't that people don't want to offer constructive critique, or think it;s not valuable. What they're trying to explain to you is that having an expectation that most of the comments you get in galleries will be of this nature is rather unrealistic.

The best way to 'encourage' people to do something a certain way is to lead by example. You want elaborate thoughtful critiques, please come join the critique forum and contribute, or feel free to comment on people's images at large. 

Once you start doing it, you'll notice that offering comments and critique takes time and effort, and you won't be able to do much more then one or two a day, after a while.  Sometimes, to analyze a picture and offer someone suggestions and feedback can eat up all the free time someone has to work on their own art.

I hope to see you in the critique forum more often. We created it exactly for this purp[ose - so people whom complain about not getting constructive enough of a feedback would have a place to go.

I agree with ConnieKat 110 percent. She has addressed everything beautifully (IMO).

Including the typos?
Awww, you're too kind!

Ryan, I asked you not to spam this across multiple site forums.
If you want to reheat the umpteen debates the Poser forum has seen, please do a forum search on the terms "critique", "criticism", "constructive", "honesty", "spam" and "dead horse".

Anyone else who wants to comment, perhaps you can do so in Ryan's original thread in C4D.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3075209

Thank you.