Hello: According to the P7 manual, when adding a charcter and subsequently importing a background image (photo, jpg, tiff, etc) one should should be able to see the character against the backgound photo, however, I have only been able to accomplish this view after the scene has been rendered. Prior to rendering, I can see the character and visualize snippets of the background image peeking though what appears to be a grid overlay. Is this the norm or have I missed a step in the process? Thank you in advance.

Did you try the menu item:

Display / Show Background Picture (Ctrl-B)

?

Wait, you said you can see snippets of the image?

Could you show a screen cap?

Quote - Wait, you said you can see snippets of the image?

Could you show a screen cap?

Hi:
Thank you both for the reply.
Yes, "show background" was checked but what is a screen cap?
By the way, the snippets that I referred to were or are as follows:
When a background photo is imported into a scene containing a single character and "show background" is checked, a vertical grid appears when the cursor hovers near the character.  The grid, however, is reversed so that the entire display, except for the character, is covered by gray squares where "snippets" of the background photo can be seen in the thin grid lines that separate the gray squares.  In essence, it appears as if the photo is being viewed from behind Poser's background which by default is assigned as gray.   I hope that my explanation is clear.

Thank you in advance once again.

A "screen cap" is short for "screen capture" - meaning you take a snapshot of what you see on the screen, save it as an image file, and upload it to this forum. This way, I can see what you see, instead of trying to guess what you see from a verbal description.

This process is made easier with a screen capture utility, such as SnagIt.

Failing that, if you're in Windows, you can just press your "Print Scrn" key on your keyboard. This will load a copy of what's on your entire computer screen into the clipboard. You can then go into an image editor such as Photoshop and paste the captured image, crop it to show me only the part that matters, and save as a JPEG.

Thank you for the explanation. 

I am using an Intel/Mac but, yes, I understand the term screen capture and will attempt to send off a copy of the issue in question.

Hi: Sorry, I was unable to create a screen shot since the grid as described above is only visible when the cursor is placed at or near the scene's character. An attemted screen shot shows only the character and the default gray background. Is there any way to turn off the default gray background or make it transparent?

Hello again:

I apologize for the numerous posts but I thought that it might be helpful to add one other observation:

Importing a photo into a new window prior to inserting a character does indeed reveal the photo as desired, however, a subsequently inserted character brings with it the previously described gray background and the resultant grid.  So, it would seem that the software is not allowing the substitution of the imported photo for the default background.

Thank you once again for any assistance that you may be able to offer.

I'm wondering what service release you have. This clearly sounds like a bug, and one that may have been fixed.

Also, are you using the opengl preview? If so, are your OpenGL drivers up to date? Have you tried using the software preview mode? (Display, Preview Drawing, SreeD Software)

SR2.1 mentions many preview rendering problems:

Preview Render Engine

• Fixed case where applying certain materials would corrupt transparency preview (OpenGL Hardware shading only).
• Fixed case where applying certain materials would corrupt preview (OpenGL Hardware shading only).
• Fixed problems with Enhance Multilayer Transparency (OpenGL Hardware shading only).
• Made Preview transparency Settings persistent.
• Now always drawing current/active selected item with red outline in the Preview window.

Hi: I am using version 7.0.2.132 which I beleive to be the latest release. I am using open GL (hardware) and I will see what happens if I switch to software. It was suggested that I trash the preferences files but doing so did not resolve the issue. Oddly enough, both P6 and P7 on my G5 work properly and the issue that I am experiencing only exists on my 8 core Intel/Mac with 4gig of ram and an NVidia Quadro FX 4500 for which open GL should be a breeze. All of the drivers are the latest available.

Hello again: Well, your suggestion seems to have done the trick! Switching to software GL for preview mode has eliminated the problem. Thanks again.

8 core 4 gig, niiiiiice

Well I'm thinking you have found a legit bug, since you only see the problem on one machine and I did what you did and can't reproduce it. Of course we don't know whose bug - eF or NVidia.

I'd contact eF, they're super about addressing bugs. Every one I've told them about was turned into action in just a few hours.

YC - yep that's a flaw. I figured I pushed CH hard enough, but I felt like she never really understood the issue of BEING INSIDE THE BALL. She still hasn't rendered that way. I'm just waiting for her to catch up.

Here's what you do. Open her ball - use the group tool - select all polys - reverse the normals. You should now be able to preview while INSIDE but not OUTSIDE.

Now there is still a problem. The preview does not use altered coordinates. So if you do as you should as reverse the U_Scale, the preview will not show that.

This is why I really think the ball is still UV mapped incorrectly for this purpose. I'll wait for CH to figure it out because she enjoys making these things and "helping" me. I already have a ball I made myself that previews correctly from inside. I'm going to give it to eF and suggest they include it in the Primitives folder as Environment Sphere.

Don't worry...she has done renders from within the shpere   & she "gets  it" ( search out her old Stonehenge product from 2 years ago... all built around a custom environment map using the old hi res sphere.  putting a "world" around the objects has been something she streesed to users for many years, but not everyone wants to do it that way, so she shows other ways to intergrate 2d & 3d together c'est la vie )

Trying it out now, I see the preview, but it's a weird workaround... Thank you though. rendering out a test to see whats up with the normals reversed.

Has anyone compared the uv mapping of say a Vue, 3dsmax or LW environment vs the EF primative, or are the "big boys" simply using node math to represent the spherical environment when the users invokes global lighting?

This helps me out a lot with placement. 

As far as EF is concerned, Sounds like they need you & Cath as head of consulting & development like yesterday!  Fixing all sorts of issues this week :SMILE:  but sometimes it is better to be on the outside...free to adapt & change without someone yelling the N words........ NO! , NOT YET!, NDA... etc hehehehe

The render in the tut is the same with normals "normal" & reversed, only the preview changes, reversed = visible preview, "normal" = not visible preview

Now to fix the typos.....
work work
have have have have
sphere sphere sphere sphere...

Please insert where needed LOL

The Brain works faster than the fingers sometimes ( except when playing the piano & guitar )

It looks to be an Open GL issue (NVIDIA Card here), because it goes away with switching display to software render (SreeD)

Just passing FYI as I delve in deeper (Scuba gear back on...& going under again )

BB.. you still not happy, I am as well, why I should see it from the outside if I see it inside as well and have set up ... where in one program you can view the environment from outside ? it should stay on one place  and not moving with beside only the camera so the light move with and is correct to the mapped environment..  the sphere was mapped correct and the Reverse Group Normals was set back .. I guess you know about that... I am going to make final scene and upload it... so they can use it without to touch anything..

and one more thing, if you change the UV_Scale to -1,- you replace  the south with the north the light is not correct anymore you should replace also the HDR light Probe UV_scale to -1,0 , this make not sense .. wanna have nice view turn the camera and keep the poser standart , Vue view is from East-South to West-North too... if the photographer make mistake showing the front in place of the nice back why you should change the all system for one bad HDR Map ? and now all follow this too in wrong way...
Alex you changed your IBL to -1,0 mixed up the light that will not match the background..

YEP... increasing YON to match world scale fixed it.... duh. I should of caught that. Thank U

That was my concern regarding reversing the U on the sphere or the IBL. I tried it to see if it was correct. I will post picture to show what happens when things get reversed & why it should stay same. for background & IBL
.... everyone to their corners LOL  .. just teasing :-)

Sigh. Look I did over 20 renders showing why U_Scale = -1 is correct with respect to AN ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPH. Do NOT show me another example using a drawing. You can make drawings say anything you want.

Nobody has responded to the following statement with an accurate contradiction.

You are facing north. You turn right 90 degrees. Now you are facing East.

Then South, then West, then North

Now imagine doing that while taking a picture continuously - North->East->South->West.

Do what I say, and that is how it looks inside the sphere..

Hahahahha .. you can see from the Light probe where the light come out and what would be back for the L/L sphere map ...  this one was done correct for poser view, but have the nice view back for us.. he or she  should choice better view where the nice thing show up when looking on from the north and not against the sun ( south).. wanna switch then do that but with both Sphere map and Light probe UV_Scale on the same time and forget not to return back by next usage..or check the light probe.. and you can make tests if you like but this is so LIGHT as the sun...

are we now done with the UV_Scales of bad mapped spheres ? ( not mine)

Over and over we go. I said that we'd discuss the lighting when you agreed how the panorama is supposed to be. You have not once said, yes it is North->East->South->West, but instead say that I switched North and South, or I got the lighting reversed, which means we don't agree yet.

And, yes, you must reverse the IBL probe as well. Look this is killling me. I'm waiting and waiting for everybody to catch up to me so I can show you the next cool thing.

I have a shader node setup that wil let you use the same panoramic image for your ball and your IBL probe. You do not need to use HDRSHOP to make an angular map or any such nonsense. My shader will let you use ONE IMAGE, and it will let you ROTATE IT in real time any way you want. This, of course, means that you no longer have to just keep the lighting direction the photographer chose. You can spin the environment as you like.

Nobody else has this for Poser. It is a breakthrough. You want it.

But I'm not going to show it to anybody until everybody understands these directional issues accurately.

Quote - Sigh. Look I did over 20 renders showing why U_Scale = -1 is correct with respect to AN ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPH. Do NOT show me another example using a drawing. You can make drawings say anything you want.

Nobody has responded to the following statement with an accurate contradiction.

You are facing north. You turn right 90 degrees. Now you are facing East.

Then South, then West, then North

Now imagine doing that while taking a picture continuously - North->East->South->West.

Do what I say, and that is how it looks inside the sphere..

and it is like that and if you switch UV_Scale of the HDR Map you change the north to the south and that is not correct with respect to the Poser standart view don't forget about the HDR Light Probe that was not changed and was incorect.. when you look on poser scene you facing north, if you imagine you are inside the scene looking out you facing the south.. so now switch the UV_scale and you mix all up

I will use an acutal photograph BB :-), let's all try to harmonize.  I understand your logic, that if the Mirror ball that is the basis for the angular map is reflecting the Southen side ( that which is behind the photographer) then once it is unwarpped, & mapped to the sphere, it would need to be reversed. My question is, by simply applying the map doesn't the image get reversed because we are looking at it from ** Inside** of the sphere?  Not arguing, & I understand yours & Cath's  passion It what allows both of you to do the "impossible" within Poser. I'm just hoping to take a step back & look again at the "world" that our discussions has created.  I want everyone to take full advantage of the tools at their disposal ( & an end to hunger, & world peace... That's why I want to be Miss America....huh, wha...oh nevermind)

This is not the right thread to discuss this. Let's go back to the other one.

Cath what you just said demonstrates my point about how confused you are. In the real world I am facing north. Whether there is a ball in front of me or a ball around me makes no difference. I do not suddenly face south just because you put a ball around me. Yet that is what you just said.

"when you look on poser schene you facing north" correct
"if you imagine you are inside the scene looking out you facing south" wrong

Unless I rotate I'm still facing north

Look forget the words - show me which render I did that has any directions wrong. Make a compass like I did. Why is nobody else chiming in here? I feel like you're trying to make me lose my mind. 

I ask again, if I face north and I turn right 90 degrees, which way am I facing?

Now if I do that inside a sphere, is anything different? No.

So - in a photograph, the east is to the RIGHT of North. It has to be. Does anybody disagree? How can you? I just don't get it.

Quote - ........

And, yes, you must reverse the IBL probe as well. Look this is killling me. I'm waiting and waiting for everybody to catch up to me so I can show you the next cool thing......

Wait I think I see light at the end of the tunnel.....  Please bear with me everyone :-)

BB, I want to understand you, you are saying, if we change the U value of the image map thats plugged into our worldshpere to -1, then we must do the same with the IBL to match the image map correct?

Quote -

Nobody else has this for Poser. It is a breakthrough. You want it.

But I'm not going to show it to anybody until everybody understands these directional issues accurately.

so you wanna play you own rules and change it ? what about the rest of the system then ? we have fast directions in poser, i would be total mixed up using my cameras and had to inverse the poser world after usage of so many years..
and one thing is here sure, if you was a James and I put you in the center of the scene you would be facing the south...  and the west is always on right in this situation as it show up in all my diagrams that are correct to poser and the L/L world map..so all other softwares as HDRSHop etc...

are you sure that the thing you created would have the right function and not working just as LDRI  IBL?  how possible to use not light probe that is plug in into IBL where the system of poser is set and can't make any changes ? or is your shader node converting in real time the hdr background into light probe? the last would be possible

Quote -

"when you look on poser schene you facing north" correct
"if you imagine you are inside the scene looking out you facing south" wrong

I am talking about the model and how it is set on standart, if you put james in the scene you don;t see his back to us only face.. where is his face to north ? no to south..  so I am correct

Cath after I showed you how to do shadow catching better and FASTER than the built-in one, using nodes, don't you begin to wonder that I really know the math in the material room? Maybe even it is fair to say that I know the material room math better than anyone else in the world?

Yes I am converting, in real the, the HDR background into the light probe. And it is exactly the same speed as using an angular map from HDRSHOP.

But, by using the U_Offset in the image, you can rotate it!!!! In real time!!! You can even animate it!!!!

Believe me, I know it works. I have very high attention to detail.

I know that the function is identical because:

1. I have verified that, pixel for pixel, my shader network does the same conversion that HDRSHOP does.
2. I have verified that the high dynamic range is honored throughout the calculation.
3. I have test renders showing that there is ZERO difference between using an angular map made by HDRSHOP and my shader using the panoramic image.
4. I have test renders showing that there is ZERO difference beween using the angular maps provided with Poser 7, and using my shader with the panoramic image.

I believe you ,I see your work and I know where you come from you have very high attention to detail but so I that why I make here the cats fight  with you but don't get lose your nerves b/c I am always calm..and checking everything again and again but my dear not after 2 years.... i was thinking like you first time they killed me for that .. regarding the direction in poser..

Your inovation sounds excellent for sure and I trust your tests on that..  you know for me not big to change the directions 99% of poser users don't care about ... I do b/c is important for me when while making UV Maps so I know what is right direction while I flip the UV Maps...in other apps

No doubt about your mathamtical mind for sure :-) That sounds great & a great product for you to be the proud papa of :-) I am sure we will all be on the same page soon. I want to understand that in our current scenario,
Patience from all please...let's follow this through :

if one is to reverse the u on the spheres  image then they would do same for IBL ( both set to -1 ?)
Bagginsbill, is this what you are saying about this one point? .... one step at a time

(cath U have site mail)

P.S and Alex you should keep posting your questions before on the HDR Track and not here b/c it get mixed all the places..and that is important for the subject.. I think nobody new will follow it anyway anymore... time to set it on one place... and after BB get the nobel for his inovation we can erase it from the history... :) nobody will need that no more..

BB...I just wondering  why they never finished the way you gonna to present it, there was well something like that in the material room under the Light shader node... but I guess that was the Curious labs drama team...

Quote -

if one is to reverse the u on the spheres  image then they would do same for IBL ( both set to -1 ?)
Bagginsbill, is this what you are saying about this one point? .... one step at a time

YES ALEX, this is so logic... and I said that not BB , that forgot to mention it... got ya!

cat fight - LOL - I love you Cath

:-) <silence as the mad men & women compute & render away>

ahhhhhh Poser LOL.
taking this back to the HDR thread with more posts later. Got to finish stuff in the flesh world & come back :-)
See Y'all there...Play nice while I'm gone

Oh I'm playing nice. I'm thinking to sell the panoramic IBL (and a few other goodies) but I'll let you two have them for free.

I can also convert any of the IBL angular maps back into panoramas so they can be used in the sphere_map as a reflection map. Nice huh?

I can also convert angular to panorama, rotate it, and convert back to angular. In other words, you can rotate an iBL as you see fit.

I can also convert box mapping, mirror ball mapping, etc. In other words, everything HDR shop can do, I can do directly in Poser.

I can also do the tone mapping.

Cath, really, you need to start paying attention to what I say. I have attached a screen shot showing that I said exactly that on Sep 26. You were quiet that day, because you were busy building the new sphere that I finally convinced you was needed. If you will recall, I told you I would not discuss lighting until everyone agreed with and demonstrated they fully understand the compass, and photographic images, from inside a sphere. 

And yet - I did tell everyone how to match the IBL. :biggrin:

Now be a good Poser artist, and show me a real panorama, with words in it, that has directions we're all familiar with, such as new york, rendered inside YOUR sphere. Render it with U_Scale = -1 and also with U_Scale = 1.

If you aren't convinced, then I insist you build a compass like I did, take your camera outside, have 4 friends hold up signs indicating the four directions, take a panoramic photo, and show it inside your sphere. Show it with U_Scale = 1, and with U_Scale = -1. I guarantee you, that U_Scale = 1 will be backward on your sphere, and on the Poser sphere.

Sounds nice, regarding the tone mapping .. you need minimal 3 hdr photos with different expose to make correct HDR photo maps to use as GI..for the high light, shadows and ilumination  .. the tone mapping have a little bit more options look only into Artizen.. if you get this all in the material room or whatever you plan to run in poser it will be huge...I will love you for that! ;) still we need to use other software to create the panoramic IBL, b/c if you convert mirror ball to sphere map it will not fit exactly the proportions... every photo of a mirror ball have to be converted to Light probe and after that to L/L sphere map.. so they have everything correct...or just use correct L/L sphere map and problem is solved...

Quote -

If you aren't convinced, then I insist you build a compass like I did, take your camera outside, have 4 friends hold up signs indicating the four directions, take a panoramic photo, and show it inside your sphere. Show it with U_Scale = 1, and with U_Scale = -1. I guarantee you, that U_Scale = 1 will be backward on your sphere, and on the Poser sphere.

I match my light for years using this and it always worked perfect and with right direction, I do not use panoramic pictures that are merge God know wish direction .. I work on my own Light probes in area where I know the durections and what I see and where the light coming from... look the Ballisma image in my garden, the light was where it is in real when you look on that, everything was correct from the reflections in the sphere to the light.. how I can more say about...
you can't base you words on a panoramic images b/c you don't know where the photographer started merge it so don't accept it will fit the standart with the mapped sphere I did...that was bassed on the directions of the world map and globe.. ( the same as the Light Probe)
if you gonna flip the world then please do nobody will kill you for that...  hahaha if i do the same
my light will be not matching in my images no more..so... I not agree, I am sorry

P.S I give you honor back regardig the info about UV_scale IBL, you did mention that we all missed that...

Cath stop talking about lights. I already told you I'm not going to discuss the lighting. Every time I try to pin you down, you talk about lights.

But we already established that if you flip the panorama and flip the angular map - they still match. Stop talking about lighting consistency. That is not the point. The point is that you keep finding excuses as to why you cannot show me something with WORDS in it in your render that is correct. Any photograph with a sign in it will make it clear. You say do not use panoramic pictures that are "merge God know which direction". Why is that a problem. Are you unfamiliar with the New York skyline? Do you know the Statue of Liberty? Which arm does she hold up - her right arm or her left arm. Everybody knows it which is which. Put a picture of the statue of liberty on your sphere with U_Scale positive. Render from inside. Show yourself that IT IS BACKWARD. Now use U_Scale negative. Render from inside. Show yourself that IT IS FORWARD. 

Use words - signs - logos - office buildings, store fronts, whatever. This is not difficult, yet you have refused to do it for us even once.

You CANNOT use a photograph with U_Scale = 1 from inside the sphere. It is backwards. You can refuse all day, yet it is most definately backwards. It will only show forwards if U_Scale = -1 or some other negative number. And therefore, so to, must the IBL be flipped to match.

Don't say any more - prove your words. Not with a diagram, with a photograph. Do not draw North West South East. Do not draw North East South West. Show us a photograph, either one that has words in it, or one that is famous and asymmetrical. Do not show us, for example, the Louvre - who can tell left from right there? Too bad because I myself made a panorama in the Touilleries of Paris. Unless you know the garden pefrectly, nobody would know reverse from forward. In fact I have quite a few panoramic photos I took myself, but no words in them. So I can't prove it with something I made.

Hmmm. perhaps I can make a new one.

But now my dear friend, I'm going out to dinner and drinks and I'm going to make a toast to you and hope that by tomorrow we all know which way is East and how to use a photo as an environment sphere. Then I can give you new goodies.

Quote - every photo of a mirror ball have to be converted to Light probe and after that to L/L sphere map.. so they have everything correct

That is not true. You do not need to tell me what is possible and what is not, as I have already done it. But you are confusing the other people.

I have math shaders that go straight from any format to any other. Remember, I know math. I know how to write HDRSHOP from scratch. And I have matmatic, my tool that converts math functions into Poser shader nodes.

I don't know if you've thought far enough about how it is done, but in order to do these conversions, you need arcSine and arcTangent - which do not exist in Poser. Yet I have them implemented in Poser nodes and they are accurate to 1 part in 100,000. With them, I am able to do all the trigonometric conversions between these different coordinate systems quite neatly.

I hope you're not trying to figure out how to do the conversion instead of demonstrating to yourself and the rest of us that your photographs should be U_Scale = 1 or U_Scale= -1.

can this tell you more... I know where the sun was ....
this is not problem with the right way of panoramic image but they are merged wrong sometimes and that confuse you they  don't fit the spheres or the standart and have to be flipped... is that hard to understand ?

here my last dia for you.. i know where the sun was and the directions and it works as I said..
inside or outside the sphere..

Quote - > Quote - every photo of a mirror ball have to be converted to Light probe and after that to L/L sphere map.. so they have everything correct

 

That is not true. You do not need to tell me what is possible and what is not, as I have already done it. But you are confusing the other people.

you make me lough on this one, simple picture of a mirror ball is not complete 360 degree
there are missed points b/c the mirror ball don't reflect the part under the ball and low behind..
a mirror ball can't reflect it self while covering the place where it is especially in small scenes..or wrong focals of the camera or to close up so what you tell me that is not true.. convert a pic of a mirror ball to sphere map L/L and you will see what you miss this will be a mess..and how the positions changes.. only correct made panoramic picture can be converted to ideal Light probes that match it 1:1 and a mirror ball is good for a HDR diffuse Light probe but is not acurate 1:1 if talking about details, if you don't agree you just explain and tell your own version , your knowlegde in mat is briliant but this don't tell me much.. it seems you run on your own rules and everything else by others is a crap... the pro pple teach the users this way and how to make it right and you say it is not true...while don't even check out what I said..

I'm doing my (limited) best to follow this thread, and at the risk of muddying the waters even further... is it possible that this is simply a mix up of terminology?

Cath is rotating her image map, so is correct in saying that the coordinates of the map will be reversed, while bagginsbill is basing his (also correct) argument on the orientartion of the Poser scene itself, which will of course remain stationary in repect to the image map so doesn't change orientation.

There you go.  Now you can both have a go at me for being ignorant instead of fighting each other. ~lol~

Oh well, it's back to the pan-dimensional drawing board for me then... :¬)

ThanksCath.....

Head On... Apply directly to the forehead
Head On... Apply directly to the forehead
Head On... Apply directly to the forehead
Head On... Apply directly to the forehead
Head On... Apply directly to the forehead
Head On... Apply directly to the forehead
Head On... Apply directly to the foreheadHead On... Apply directly to the foreheadHead On... Apply directly to the foreheadHead On... Apply directly to the forehead....... 

whew

back to posing now?

:wub::wub::wub::wub::wub: for everybody here