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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 26 1:43 pm)
Subject: So Poser is considered crap compared to most 3D "artists" programs ?
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Lunedust, as you're a relative newcomer, you may not be aware that the subject gets quite a bit of airing here and elsewhere. Not that I'm saying anything against your post, you understand.
Thing is, there are definitely other apps which will do much more than Poser, They generally cost a lot more, too.
Just use what you want to use and forget about the peanut gallery.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
Errrr....Umphhhh....Errrrrrrr.....Shewwwww
Dragging out that dead horse to beat is sure a lot of work... ;D
When the arrogant start looking down at you, just ask them if an artist using Crayola crayons to make something exquisite is crap because he/she used crayons instead of 'art-world-certified' pastels or something.
There is tons of Poser stuff that certainly is indeed crapola - that isn't the fault of Poser now is it? It's the person using Poser. Much the same could be said of someone using Houdini and producing crap. Just because this person has a $10000 application doesn't mean their skills have improved. 'nough said.
Where is that darn sequoia log? Need to start the beatings.
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the
foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg
off.
-- Bjarne
Stroustrup
Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone
Well, first off, most of the people who dismiss Poser as "not real 3D" can't make a distinction between modeling and art, and can't seem to accept that if 3D models are used, regardless of their source, then the final product is also 3D. I've seen 3D modelers who were incredible at modeling and couldn't make an artistic scene to save their lives - on the other hand, I've seen some who truly are artists. I've also seen Poser users who couldn't make a model to save their lives but who can make some truly beautiful and moving images, and I consider them artists - and I've also seen a lot of crap made with Poser where they really do seem to just load a Millennium figure, a texture set they've purchased, a ton of props and clothing sets, a couple lights, and the result is, IMHO, quite sad. Are they artists? Not in my opinion, but if they enjoy doing it and sharing it, then I think they have every right to do so that the really talented and skilled superusers do.
Art is about emotion, and even though I can get emotional about a mesh I've worked hard on, that's not the same thing as evoking emotion ("wow, that's cool!" doesn't count, I'm afraid ;)) in a viewer with an image I worked equally hard on, despite the fact that I didn't model a single piece in it, and may not even have done postwork on it, besides compositing (I'm admittedly lousy at digital painting!). 3D 'snobs' who think it only qualifies if you created every single polygon are mostly just trying to puff themselves up, and usually wouldn't know what art is if it fell on them; the ones who do know what art is almost invariably know that it's the artist, not the tool, that creates art, and while they may not choose to use the same tools as Poser users, they generally can appreciate what the artist is trying to accomplish.
Art, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder - modeling is, IMHO, more a craft, skill as much or even more than talent. Without modeling, Poser images wouldn't exist, and even though Poser isn't as capable in most aspects as a product that costs 5-10 times as much, no one in his right mind should expect it to be so, nor should one expect an artist to invest 5-10 times as much simply to qualify as an 'artist.' Good or great Poser artists I've seen can generally make art with a variety of media, while many of the skilled 3D modelers I've dealt with actually bitch and moan about unfair circumstances when asked to create anything outside their modeling programs.
Poser is without doubt the biggest load of crap ever produced for the 3D community!!
No, just joking.
Poser is a fine tool when used correctly. There have been some fine work produced by great artists here, it's the way some people use it that has given it a bad name.
What I don't understand is why some people from sites such as CGTalk think that if you haven't made everything yourself within your work then it's not art & you're not talented. Would Constable be classed as not talented because he didn't create the tools he used & didn't create the landscapes he painted? Are photographers not talented or have an eye for art because they don't create the scenes they photograph. Is George Lucas not talented because he didn't model or create the CG stuff in his films?
It's all about vision, using the tools at your disposal to create something which speaks to someone & creates emotion.
I have seen some work from people who have amazing talent at modelling, but their artwork is just average at best.
Most hobbyists can't afford the highend apps like 3DSMax & Maya, so Poser is a great alternative. Alot of people do artwork for fun, we don't all have the talent to make a career out of our work so we get what we can out of it.
Let them criticise.
Unless you're a serious, full time graphics pro, what you're doing is using what is basically a toy for making pictures, regardless of which app you choose and how much it costs. For the record, pros do use Poser quite a bit. The attitude is "whatever gets the job done".
So, bearing that in mind, here's a real simple test you can apply to almost anything...
Substitute the word "Poser" for "Etch a Sketch", then substitute the name of whatever app is being held up as better for "Magna Doodle".
Now you can see clearly just how intelligent and mature the debate is. :biggrin:
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
interesting That "guy" You Quoted was actually Me!!!
Yaa Dead horse
though not gonna bother to comment further here
Oops sorry then if it's an old and tired out subject !
Btw I find your answers very mature for spotty adolescents :) Personally I like Poser because it opened up a new world to me, and as I'm pretty curious I like to test this and that as there is so much to try to understand.
The material room is an enormous challenge in itself (blending textures, adding transparencies, displacements and bumps etc, then there is the question about lighting, the clothing room and dynamic clothes, modifying and making new props .... etc etc etc. I like the fact that you can mess with dials and then see what happens ... experimenting and learning.
In the end you can even forget what you were trying to do in the first place lol, getting carried away.
When I started dabbling with 3D applications and acquired Poser the free Daz program wasn't out and I couldn't have afforded high end programs, as it has nothing to do with my job, just a hobby at home. And as there is already so much to do (and I started with Hexagon now too) I prefer not to start testing other programs if I can avoid it, so Poser it shall remain for a while definately :)
Lunedust
PS : sorry for calling you "guy" Wolf359 :)
As long as a magazine like 3D-world takes Poser and even DAZ3D-studio serious, which they do: just look in the januari-issue, I consider it a major 3D-program.
Using 3DS-max, Maya, Cinema4D or whatever won't stop anybody from producing crap. On the other hand it's easier to produce crap with Poser; so... if someone makes a real piece of art with Poser, he is a better artist then when he would have used a "real" 3D-tool. Or am I missing something?
Best regards and be carefull with fireworks!
Bopperthijs
-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?
Agree with all sentiments! :)
Some of the so-called 'professionals' also seem to forget that in the industry (the real industry - where the multi-billion dollar movies are made) there isn't a single person who creates a character. There is a pro guy who models. There is another pro guy who UV maps. There is another pro guy who creates all of the texturing. There is another guy who rigs. There is another guy and another and another and another. (Is the point being made clear as crystal?) Some of these really good characters in movies are the culmination of a not-so-quaint team of professionals with years and years of experience and BIG budgets. Comparing Poser characters to this is like comparing a plastic toy car to the real thing.
Screw them... ;P
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the
foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg
off.
-- Bjarne
Stroustrup
Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone
Quote - Lunedust my advice to you would be close your acount at CGTalk & ignore the retards on there.
Oh, that's a brilliant statement.
Yes, head in sand, always the best way to stay in one's own opinion, but not particularly good when trying to learn about things.
Those "retards" also happen in alot of cases to be the people making all the advances in CG Land, and while certain opinions can be overloked, it's hardly beneficial for anyone wanting to learn to ignore the rest of what they say.
I'm not getting deep into it, because I really don't care, but it's been my understanding that it's more the fact that the figures are always one of maybe ten, and everbody uses them to death. They're instantly recognizable, and most people don't do much beyond slapping someone else's stuff together and call it art.
I'm not saying it isn't, just answering the question as it seems to be asked.
It's not just Poser, not just CGTalk, not just CG. Take a paint-by-numbers picture and upload it to a fine art forum, and see if you don't get the same reaction.
The truth is, yes, most of those people do consider Poser to be crap. However, there are quite a few, very prominent, very well-respected, very accomplished CG professionals I've seen saying the opposite. As their level of professionalism rises, they seem to be more inclined to accept whatever gets the job done, whatever it takes to meet the deadline. Many use Poser as pre-viz, to have something to show a client, something that can be done up quickly.
check the gallery here. it's possible to do excellent renders in poser that any 3d snob will admire (provided ya don't tell 'em the renders were done in poser), but in general, poser is at the bottom of the 3d pecking order, due to the millions of giant-boobed nostril-glow zombies posted everywhere on the net.
Don't forget the temple and the sword, for chris' sake! :crying:
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the
foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg
off.
-- Bjarne
Stroustrup
Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone
Y'know, once, just for laughs, I posted an image at CGTalk. Didnt talk about how it was made or what program I used or anyting else along those lines, just "here it is; whatcha think?" The comments were all pretty much along the lines of "nice work!"
Had I said I used Poser as a basis for it, the comments would have been very different, but at the very least, what that little experiment proved is that some folks are more about the brand name than the contents.
docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider
Huh, who cares about what other 3D people think say or do.
I judge the results. Not the application itself.
There are many talented professional and hobbyist artists who use Poser and come up with excellent output. A lot of the result includes their personal skill, talent, experience and fine eye for the subject they are producing.
Let the nay-sayers eat toot
Eternal Hobbyist
Modeling original figures in a 3d program is part sculpture and part puppet creation. It’s a fairly time-consuming task that requires a specific talent and skill set. (Unlike animation or Poser, modeling requires an innate talent that simply can’t be learned by everyone.) If you’d like to create original figures, then Poser might be a hindrance in that it encourages laziness since the available content is flexible enough to create any sort of character. Those 3d professionals who like to comment that Poser’s figures always look the same have likely never tinkered with the morphs for the figures from Daz or Anton's Apollo. By the way, I think it's silly for the cg talkers to lecture someone who wants to create illustrations that he must master the art of sculpture in order to be a true artist. Whether or not an image or a model evokes an emotion is entirely subjective. Certainly the emotion is not encoded in the actual transmission. Is art only that which communicates an emotional message? If so, how do you explain the average content of a modern art gallery that represents nothing and communicates nothing?
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It's a bit of a mistake imo to lump those two things together {is poser crap/is everything made in poser crap}
IMO one is false the other true. Cant really get into a forum war over it but there are programs out there that can be found just as cheap or cheaper, that do more and better. Poser is sometimes a necessary evil... that probably wont always be true
I am: aka Velocity3d
I trust you're being facetitous, because if one really applies ones self to it, Poser can be every bit as difficult to master as Maya. Sure, there are those who approach it "one from column A, one from column B", but you have those in every software community, and CGTalk is no exception -- if one wanted to truly blunt about it, there's a lot at CGT that's pretty lame and yet hailed as the best thing to come down the pike since the invention of nurbs. For those who claim that Poser is derivitave and monotonous (and yes, I put myself in that category), there are also pages upon pages of repetitive imagery at CGT.
But as we wallop this corpse of a horse, the bottom line is this: who cares? Is there some competiiton that I missed the memo on? Are we in some kind of contest to see who can do a CG image of the best pair of female breasts (which is just as much a running gag there as it is here and just about anywhere else)? If making your images from Poser makes you happy, go for it. If your work calls for you to learn FormZ or 3D Studio Max, go for it. If your life ambition is to make a five minute animation in Maya, go for it. A hundred years from now, all new people, which means no one will give a hoot what you used because chances are real good that a century from now, none of our images will even exist.
docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider
I see one real danger in Poser .Poser can make you lazy.Poser has still the best 3D figures around you can buy.Look at TurboSquit and compare. So why building better ones on your own? I think Poser's rigging technique is bad nowadays .Lots of ugly and unrealistic joint creases are one of the major problems that are still not solved.Why havn't I imported a Poser Figure into C4D (in my case) and gave it an advanced serious 3D app rigging ? I don't know. Maybe because animating with Poser seems to be tempting easy.---I think Poser is seen as crap because lots of artworks consist of prebuilt content that is used more or less clever.I cannot completly decide for one point of view.Of course I would give higher ratings to a scene, where every object or figure was built up from the scratch , but on the other hand a good picture is a good picture no matter which content is used.Wll maybe this struggle is as superficial as a hole in your head.You should be happy with your software and be able to increase your skills. --- a happy 2008 to all of you
The point is that Poser is an ENTRY LEVEL 3D application - it's cheap and easy to grasp, so it follows that a huge proportion of the work produced with it is going to be what you'd expect from entry level users (ie: well-intentioned, but pretty crappy).
Sure, there are some experts in the poser community doing excellent work entirely with Poser but they are in the minority, many who rise to expert status migrate to more advanced software, once you know what you're doing it's simply easier to do better work with better tools.
Quote -
Seriuosly though, Lunedust, you will always run into " fanboys " praising their software.
Exactly, and a part of praising their own software is to put down other software and users of other software. But it goes both ways as evidenced in this thread (and every thread like it), the other fanboys say poser and the art produced with it is crap, and guess what? - some Poser fanboys respond with stuff like "screw them", "retards" etc etc.
It'll be interesting to see what happens when Poser Pro arrives because it promises to allow easier transfer between poser and some of the high-end professional applications. I'm hoping this will have two benefits:
Firstly I think it'll make poser more useful to more professionals, so hopefully the anti-poser group will lose ground or at least become less vocal.
Secondly, I'm hoping that with more highly skilled professionals using Poser and poser figures they'll bring some pressure to bear on the developers to fix the issues like shitty elbows and shoulders, sucky user interface and productivity/workflow issues. Up to now Poser users have put up with poser's many limitations and quirks largely because they didn't know any better. Once we get a lot more users who regularly use much better software I think we'll see more vocal criticism of Poser's weaknesses and hopefully that'll carry some weight.
As far as I can see it, it's the same as with for example car's.
If your used to a Rolls Royce with all the bell's and whistles, electric windows and what not, than a Lada is crap in your eye's.
But both will bring you from A to B.
It's up to the driver to do it save and in time.
And even the Lada driver has less luxury, you might be surpriced to see what some people can do with it.
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Quote - > Quote - Lunedust my advice to you would be close your acount at CGTalk & ignore the retards on there.
Oh, that's a brilliant statement.
Yes, head in sand, always the best way to stay in one's own opinion, but not particularly good when trying to learn about things.
Those "retards" also happen in alot of cases to be the people making all the advances in CG Land, and while certain opinions can be overloked, it's hardly beneficial for anyone wanting to learn to ignore the rest of what they say.I'm not getting deep into it, because I really don't care, but it's been my understanding that it's more the fact that the figures are always one of maybe ten, and everbody uses them to death. They're instantly recognizable, and most people don't do much beyond slapping someone else's stuff together and call it art.
I'm not saying it isn't, just answering the question as it seems to be asked.It's not just Poser, not just CGTalk, not just CG. Take a paint-by-numbers picture and upload it to a fine art forum, and see if you don't get the same reaction.
The truth is, yes, most of those people do consider Poser to be crap. However, there are quite a few, very prominent, very well-respected, very accomplished CG professionals I've seen saying the opposite. As their level of professionalism rises, they seem to be more inclined to accept whatever gets the job done, whatever it takes to meet the deadline. Many use Poser as pre-viz, to have something to show a client, something that can be done up quickly.
I stand by my statement, Poser isn't crap, most of what comes out of it may indeed be crap, but the basic program isn't crap. Only a retard would say the program is crap because of what amateurs like me do with it.
Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1
Sure, there are some experts in the poser community doing excellent work entirely with Poser but they are in the minority
You can say that about ANYTHING, from Word to Maya to PowerPoint and back again. Sorry, that's much of a shocker statement. Again, I refer you to the overwhelming amount of crap one can find at places like CGTalk, all done by students or amateurs, most of whom will never stay with the programs long enough to do anything beyond that point. Should we then start to disparage #D Max and Maya because of what entry-level users do with it?
Sure, a lot of people move on from programs to things more advanced. I dont use Poser anywhere near as much in my professional design life as I did three years ago, but I still use it a great deal for book illustration, and if my sales records are any indication, my editors dont consider the work crap. Like everything else -- and has been said so many times we might as well make it the theme line for this site -- it all depends on what you freaking do with it and how much time you're willing to invest in making it more than just some entry level image. And that goes no matter what program you use, period, end of story, full stop.
To put it another way, shall we stop reading Jane Austen because she wrote everything out long-hand? I mean, please, that's so 18th century!!! Or shall we look at her work for the marvel it is, regardless of how she got words in print?
docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider
A tool is a tool is a tool. Some tools are better than others but it is the skill of the person using it that makes something successful or not.
Anyway, people will never agree on whether anything is "art" or not and that hasn't changed since people started drawing on cave walls.
The only art that is undeniably crap can be found here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Ofili
;)
Quote - So Poser is considered crap compared to most 3D "artists" programs ?
Apparently there are really L33t sites that diss Poser.
However, I don't pay any attention to it. I enjoy using Poser, so I couldn't care less what some people who don't like it have to say.
I just chaulk it up to ignorance and narrowmindedness. A program is as much as you take the effort to make of it. bagginsbill shows that everyday with his amazing shaders.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
Quote - They're all crap... if you can't drive them... and don't have a creative mind, then they are useless.
Well, if you can't drive them... and don't have a creative mind, then you are more likely to opt for Poser because it is easier.
Quote - The only ones that knock Poser, are the ones that can't drive it and have no creativity with it... sad pack of barstards really.
Wrong. There are plenty of people who knock Poser who ARE creative and CAN drive it but see it as inferior to whatever high-end package they use. Do you really think that if the folks at somewhere like Pixar looked down on Poser it's because they aren't creative enough to use it? You don't perhaps think that it's because Poser can't do what they need to do?
Do you really think that if the folks at somewhere like Pixar looked down on Poser it's because they aren't creative enough to use it?
Somehow I cant see the good folks at Pixar dissing a program that gives other people enjoyment. Sure, they probably dont use it in their work, but that doesnt mean anything.
But I'd be willing to bet that, yes, a lot of the "high minded" look down on Poser because they havent a clue (1) why it's as insanely popular as it is (sure, there's the "porn" theory, but look at the galleries at some of these other places and you'll see just as much T&A) and (2) what they themselves would do with it. Sometimes, when you throw limits at people, they get hamstrung, and my bet is that some of these "artistes" tried it, decided they couldnt work with it, then dissed it because they couldnt figure out how to work with it.
But this is truly an idiotic argument. Do folks who paint with oils diss people who work with coloured pencils? Do folks with high end word processors diss people who still use typewriters? Who freaking cares as long as the end product is a good one?
docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider
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Quote - Kitty sneaks into the thread.................................
.........................................leaves a dead horse flogger on the edge of the desk...................
......................................................................................................quietly sneaks out..........
Quote -
Back on topic...Seems like no matter what the renderer, they all end up in Photoshop for touch ups.
and if they dont, they probably should have.. :-)
Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
just pee on it and walk away. :-)
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if people would manage their stupidity......
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I've been reading a few other 3D forums, and Poser is apparently considered there total crap compared to "artistic" 3D programs.
From what I understood (I'm a 3D novice just barely learning basics of Hexagon ATM) Poser users just take a few predefined badly made models (V3, V4 etc) and add tons and tons and tons of other "crap" to those models, instead of being "creative" and creating their own models and objects. Anything "created" in Poser is recognized immediately by these artists and thrown immediately into the bin.
Here's an example of part of a discussion in a 3D forum (CGTalk) where Poser was "unfortunately" mentioned (and this guy tries to defend Poser a bit lol, but apparently likes DAZ studio more) :
Sigh!
I really, really try to avoid poser related threads on CG talk
for obvious reasons ....
BTW this is DAZ studio, the free modern alternative to the aged cruft bloated 20 century legacy core poser application.
So you can do this all in poser-$200 or something USD plus the cost of any additional figures beyond the default pre-installed ones ...or you can do this all in Maxon Cinema4D -$1000 or something USD plus the cost of Interposer plugin and any addtional figures you may want for the C4D "poser library" ...or you can do this all in DAZ studio FREE ya FREE plus the cost of any addtional figures you may want for the DAZ studio library"
Hope this helps
p.s. No stereotypical nekkid poser boobie chicks were used in the creation of the preceding forum posts.
by Anobrin : http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=574326
So it seems Poser is just for big boob adolescent freaks that totally ignore ART ? (btw I'm sorry to say that even though I'm nearly 50 years old, I love big boobs still sigh and drool and I do use Poser for this fantasy sometimes cough, perhaps when I get older .... I'll love little ones as much)
I must admit that modifying a few polygons here and there from imported Poser objects in Hexagon is my limit lol and that I'm happy to use all that Poser provides me (and I still have soooo much to learn in Poser), and ok I'm just a user, not an artist. But to realize the total contempt most 3D creaters/users have concerning Poser is still disconcerting :(
What's your opinion concerning Poser compared to 3D "artist" programs ? None of those artists fantasize about big boobs or is Poser really too predefined and recognizable/predictable ?
Lunedust