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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 24 8:11 pm)
Subject: In praise of V4
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Holy Cow! Great image Operaguy!
That is Carrara 6's Hair? I haven't tried it yet, but wow, it look great!
A very nice angle and the body is very real looking. Great use of lighting. Thanks for posting this. With all the V4 bashing upon her initial release (and I'm as guilty as many), this really show that there is much promise with this mesh and that the limitations (as always) is only with the artist.
Cheers!
thank you all for your comments.
my intention was to call up the seconds before and after this shot because she IS moving, so klutz thanks for your comment.
This particular image is mostly about the hair and body and it's pose. I am "all in" as far as V4 goes; there will be others that are frankly about the head and expression. I find for the body, the muscle morphs are very important.
::::: Opera :::::
Hey Opera,
Onee more example why I think she's the best of the female meshes out there today. Not to say "Plain Jane" won't give her a run for the money when she's finished but then we have to see what sort of support she gets from vendors.
I think the lighting, hair and skin looks really gorgeous and realistic. The pose is a bit stiff but other than that it's a stellar way to show off her form. The lines of the body look nice enough, the face superb and that hair. Your going to have a write a tutorial on how you did that. I gave up on trying that. I'm too ADDA to sit and fiddle too long and I haven't found a really easy to follow tutorial as of yet. It would be nice if there were some presets for various figures. I think someone could make a little money doing that actually!! 
---Wolff On The Prowl---
yes, i did engage my morph for the V4 underarm issues on this render.
here is the link....
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2948043
::::: Opera :::::
"yes on the lines. this is skin by MaskEdit and he is not afraid of imperfections"
Really? I would have sworn it was the Daz texture, I even looked in my texure folder to make sure, the tell tale 3 lines and nipples match and I was not seing things. Even checked all my MaskEdit ones.
Sorry about that, didn't mean to offend. Guess my disapointment in the Daz texture got in the way of your wonderful work.
Looking forward to your next one, I like how the SSS turned out.
Content Advisory! This message contains nudity
http://jjkirnan.com/images/jjk-0134.png
Same basic figure but a different personality and with black hair. This study is more about the body shape than the hair.
::::: Opera :::::
Bullet critique:
Left middle finger knuckle broken
Shadows to dark for the level of light illuminating the body and room.
Face texture is tinted green while the body leans more to a pink/brownish hue.
Not to be silly but the face has the coloring of someone who has passed away.
What is the story behind this particular pose?
Keep working at it, the payoff should be large.
wayne k
guam usa
I was going to post this in the daz thread but it would not make much sense without even a thumbnail & not a lot of replies over there anyway.
I think I ruined the light balance in Photoshop. The orginal is not that dark. Somehow I am not trusting my eye on the raw render. I'll post the raw a little later, as my render system is busy (animation) at the moment.
She has a body-language habit of that hand behind the back thing (I know a woman who does that by the way) and the rest of the gesture is in reaction to a thought that she is "denying" just before getting dressed.
::::: Opera :::::
You mean the kind of behind the back where they are supporting the lower lumbar as if they are preggy??
---Wolff On The Prowl---
Not to be a naysayer, but the skin lacks depth, the hands seem dead, and the hair is straw-like.
Skin depth- no real sign of translucency, and looks like an image file - doesn't seem to be raeacting with environment.
Hands - no real pose - they're showing no emotion, or anything.
Hair- real hair has life, bouancy, reflectivity, and specularity.
Aside from that, consider the lighting and the shadows. They don't match.
In praise of V4 - a good concept, but it can't do it on its own. In praise of "In Praise Of..." is something you're far more likely to see around here, but all the congrats in the world don't change it for the better.
Not that I can do any better, but if your goal is realism, consider why these images scream CG.
here is the link to the raw render.
http://jjkirnan.com/images/blackhair.bmp
as I said above, I damaged the raw with the post processing. I am still learning about that.
I am sure some will still dislike this render, but the only thing I agree with in that last critique -- aside from the issues with the darkness/contrast -- is that the hair does look dry. I don't agree it is as fatal as Mike says, in the raw file.
::::: Opera :::::
For the hands, both images, for the hair, mostly the first, as it's not so evident in the second. For the skin, both.
The link produced a 404 error, so i couldn't see that.
I will say though, that the only reason i bothered to comment is because you have it better than most - the composition, though simple, is nicely done.
On its own merits, it's really nice, and even a nice change of pace from the usual pinup. The atmosphere is nice, as is the lighting and the poses.
I'm just figuring you can do better. I'd like to see that. :-)
in case anyone is wondering...that artifact...I've run into it a few times. It's a stray random demented polygon caused somehow during adjust facial morphs too far or too far into the negative. You can't get it to go away by resetting dials; you have to go into a modeling mode, select the poly and hand-reset it. Since this is just a study of V4 I didn't bother with that, I just took it out in photoshop.
If you are in Poser and that happens, best to just go back to a prior save; in Carrara you can open the figure in the modeling room.
::::: Opera :::::
Quote - in case anyone is wondering...that artifact...I've run into it a few times. It's a stray random demented polygon caused somehow during adjust facial morphs too far or too far into the negative. You can't get it to go away by resetting dials; you have to go into a modeling mode, select the poly and hand-reset it. Since this is just a study of V4 I didn't bother with that, I just took it out in photoshop.
If you are in Poser and that happens, best to just go back to a prior save; in Carrara you can open the figure in the modeling room.
::::: Opera :::::
It's a degenarate triangle, or a severely non-planar polygon, one or the other. Didn't notice it, myself.
Now I see it, in the better link. That's got to be a degenerate triangle, I think. I've seen that before in Poser OBJ exports.
The higher-res picture is much better, but there still seems to be a separation between the figure, and the room. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but there appears to be a conflict between the light and the shadows.
one of the challenges with GI of any sort is balancing the "global" lighting with the specular "highlighting and shadows." In this case the scene is lit with DoschHDRI light probe. In Carrara you can also kick in some 'built in' GI and AO.
If you do nothing else, you get really flat lighting, although the 'accuracy' is thrilling. So, you have to add in specular for highlights and shadows (depth). Then, the various kinds of lighting have to interact with shaders to get translucency, SSS, etc. (more depth)
so, since mostly I do "stylized" realism and animation in which hyperrealism is not wanted, I now see where the expertise would have to go to get this balance in a hyper-real still. I will be pursuing this avenue further.
I know this is a Poser forum, and Poser does have some of these elements. In fact, Poser has better support for HDRI lighting than Carrara. However, until Poser gets real GI and more advanced SSS and until its hair module can do things like the hair you see in these two images, I'll have to pursue it mostly in Carrara or 3DSMax.
The V4 model, however, which is the thing I came here to praise, is available to all Poser people. Again, if you like the bodies I am showing, I'd suggest considering getting the muscle morphs.
::::: Opera :::::
Are you planning to animated her?<<
I am working up animations of V4 with this type of body style in my studio now. The first important one is for a music video. I'll show some footage once the musician and producer say it's okay.
However, my frame buget on that project is about 2 minutes at 960x540 against five to eight hours for these two renders in realism ....well you see the problem.
The Carrara engine is pretty strong; I'll be taking hair as far as I can, but it won't be hyperrealism.
::::: Opera :::::
Thank you, operaguy. I hope you continue your studies. Honestly. I'm curious regarding carrara's capabilities.
I am very familiar with SSS and all that - shaders, translucency, refraction, and so on - been working on this with Lightwave for several years now - I fully understand the challenges. ;-)
Lightwave doesn't have decent hair though, unless you want to count Sasquatch, an expensive 3rd party plugin - which doesn't work in 64 bit anyway.
Nevertheless, I understand the hair challenge - how to make a bunch of 2-point polys behave as 3d, with specularity and reflection - not to mention gravity....
To Mike: my last few posts were not addressed to you so your 'thank you' is misdirected.
I am providing background information about these renders in general to all, and interacting with whkguamusa specifically. I am actually ignoring you because I feel you insulted the posters to this thread and the forum/Poser world in general.
::::: Opera :::::
operaguy - just to say, i disagree with MikeJ. first off, i don't see it as extreme realism, so i'm probably looking at it differently. it makes me think of some particular artwork that i think is early impressionist (Manet?), and i think the sort of flat lighting works well. the pose, colors and patterns make me think of Klimt.
actually, most hair isn't that shiny. you'd be surprised if you actually look at most photos and people in real life. outside of hair product ads, most hair is much more flatly colored and shaded than depicted in most Poser or CG stuff. if you have even global lighting, you don't usually see much specularity. i could post links to images, but i'd rather spend time working on painting unnaturally shiny hair (;D).
personally, i think one could have done just as well, if not better, with almost any fairly realistic figure and the amount of time and effort you've put into V4. and even you haven't made a face i haven't found suffered from V4's congenital problems. personally, i haven't been able to work with V4 without postworking the hell out of her joints and body in general, because they're so low detail. i've yet to see one V4 pic that approached V3 in facial realism, especially in the eyes, and in general, the better the artist, the bigger the differential i can spot. i could go on and on about V3's problems as well, and there's no figure at present i really prefer, but i have a lot of very definite problems with V4 that are particular to her not other figures, even by DAZ.
in other words, i'm not an easy judge, and i have lots of problems with V4 that have not even vaguely gone away or been addressed, even though everyone swore they only existed because she was new and not yet supported.
and i think you did a marvelous job here, and that you're showing her off beautifully and artistically. she does seem to be a wonderful muse for you, and i think you should keep working with her, enjoying her, and promoting her. keep up the great work.
Thank you...it's almost more of a Renaissance stylism. I think it works as that. Not postmodern photorealism.
I don't deny issues with V4 face getting 'a person' out of it. My thing is: I have to have this body. Sine qua non.
So..........where does that leave me or us? I think my next move is to go where Carodan goes, but I don't know how he does it and he is a true artist away from the computer. I am not really a visual artist.
http://renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=201439
::::: Opera :::::
oh, i know what you mean. he came to this game already having mastered capturing personalities and individualistic faces, as well as mastering lighting. i'm working on an image right now that frustrates me because of the lighting, which was never quite as powerful as i wanted, so i'm really appreciating various lighting styles right now.
i think i can see the Renaissance, the sort of more flat style. i would place it about 400 years later, though, myself. maybe a little pre-Raphaelite? the skin tone and hair especially evokes them. but the sort of realistically uneven skin tone makes me think Impressionists. but what do i know. i know a lot less art history than i should.
Quote - To Mike: my last few posts were not addressed to you so your 'thank you' is misdirected.
I am providing background information about these renders in general to all, and interacting with whkguamusa specifically. I am actually ignoring you because I feel you insulted the posters to this thread and the forum/Poser world in general.
::::: Opera :::::
Oh, well isn't that special.
One guy, one post, very little specific, nothing too harsh.
Funny, for a minute there it appeared you were replying to me and the critique I gave. then again, you didn't want that, did you?
Hey, you ask for opinions publicly, that's what you're going to get. Sorry if my replies weren't more in line with your vision.
I'm not sure how I insulted the Poser world with that, but whatever you want to think, by all means, it's your right to do so.
well, you might have noticed I gave my first lady the name Beatrice. She is not intended to actually mimic the look of "The Beatrice"....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Portinari
... but to invoke her vibe.
Beatrice is pre-Raphaelite. Good call.
::::: Opera :::::
Personally, I absoluetely love the first one while they are both wonderful. Her pose, the lighting, all produce a feeling in me. I even love the look of her skin and hair. So in differing opinions, mine is that the first one especially hits me where I live. :-) Thanks for sharing it with us.
Kathie Berry
Admin/PlanIT3D
Some
painters transform the sun into a yellow
spot.
Others transform a yellow
spot into the sun.
--Pablo Picasso-
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for one, the image i'm working on was rendered in D|S, so i don't think i could use HDRI. and in Poser I use 6, so also no HDRI. but i find IBL suffices. it's not the global bright light i have a problem with; i'm actually pretty confident in that area. it's the low light where i need to improve. and it wasn't the app, it was my faulty brain lol.
i sketched, used a photo as inspiration, and still i only focused on the form and the pose. i didn't think enough about the light. i had a vague idea of what i wanted, but not enough of one. and i didn't think hard enough about light and shadow, so i wanted the light to lie on the figure one way, and the shadows to be cast another. overall, it was a learning experience with lots of short-comings i'm sure critique group members will talk about when i post it. i don't know when that will be, since i might paint some clothes on it so that i can have it rejected by the DAZ gallery :tongue2:. i'll post a nude version here, though, since i've learned my lesson about posting only crippled versions.
for examples of carodan's light that i envy, see his painted work. his most recent, for instance, and there are two of older people by windows i remember on Artzone that i love.
Quote - a nice change of pace from the usual pinup.
Exactly my thoughts. It almost seems like an old oil painting - the kind of sepia tones and soft lines. I don't see it as a stab at realism per se, like it should be a photograph or such, rather a work of art which is an interpretation in any case. I think that opera has done well here, in so much as the software has only been a basis for the 'vision' a means to an end, so to speak. My only gripes are ones which are endemic within the CG genre. The texture on the background wall is too dominant and in-focus, when compared to the delicacy of the model. The pattern on the carpet looks too big, as if scaled up or as if the lady is about two foot tall. Overall the background has a kind of 'cut and paste' feel, rather than that of an atmospheric room, which the wonderful lady deserves. Less attention to detail, more soft focus - she should be stood in front of an attic window with pale light falling on her and just dusty hints of things in the background. I'm thinking 'Old Masters' = less is more! I haven't seen CG like this before. It's a unique 'signature' and very beautiful.
just my opinion... but then it would be a completely different genre. and not at all the right locale for a pre-raphaelite girl. exactly the traits you mention are the ones that make it more a late 19th century piece, and a strong one at that. again, my opinion, but a place like you're talking about would need a much tanner or ruddier model, who was also rounder and more idealized.
hi guys. thanks for the comments....
first, the point about the rug texture error and also about the wall texture being too sharply in focus are both well taken and will have an effect on my next render.
I am happy to have these mood and period comments as well.
I am going for romantic realism. Not photo-realism and not naturalism and not post-modernism. It's a niche that already exists in my compositions and fiction; this is an attempt to generate a visual to accompany.
I am not attempting to stage scenes from the Rennaisance or earlier, and actually not even from the 19th Century. However, there are some values from those prior times that are universal and I hope to invoke them for my contemporary storytelling.
I see now that I am to some extent casting about and building with contradictory elements. That's okay, I'm feeling my way. Everyone (almost everyone) who commented above has helped me focus and center on this. Thanks.
More renders coming this week.
::::: Opera :::::
Quote - >> Are you planning to animated her?<<
However, my frame buget on that project is about 2 minutes at 960x540 against five to eight hours for these two renders in realism ....well you see the problem.
::::: Opera :::::
2 minutes per frame is pretty aggressive for high quality Actually
specially in Carrara
Good Luck Though
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Content Advisory! This message contains nudity
NOTE: Image above is compressed and reduced to deal with Renderosity file size limit. It does NOT give the full effect. Please see link below to the full .tif file and I suggest you download and view at maximum. Thank you.I continue to be impressed with the V4 cage. It is a fantastic model of the human female. I also find the ability to dial in a character quite splendid.
Body/head character dialed in with Poser
Hair, lighting, SSS and render in Carrara 6 Pro.
AMD 3500+
2 GIG RAM
Twin Raptors
XP Pro
8.5 hours
Download full image here in .tif
http://jjkirnan.com/images/jjk-0133.tif
::::: Opera :::::