You may or may not agree with my view on this thread but as I browse the images I'm a bit disappointed at the quality of work  I view these days? Are people just getting lazy and not  taking pride in there work?

Just too busy to create anything lately.

You may be getting bored with the images you see. There are only so many variations of a theme you can see before it loses its charm. If you have any favorite images from when you first joined Renderosity (2004), look at those and see if they are still as good as you remember them.
Probably not.
Also, the artists may not feel challenged here anymore and have either changed their interests and are now doing something else or decided to post elsewhere.
As each revision of software (including Vue) improves, an image that once took weeks to sweat into shape now only takes a single afternoon of effort. But this enhancement in programs does not make a better artist. If the artist doesn't have the eye for his concept, then you get some pretty amazing junk.

The prolifieration of models has also added to the morass. Its easy now to pick out the model that was used, and know instantly where it has been used before. Many (including me) lack the ability to create our own models, and must rely on the creativeness of others to help shape our images. (You have some great models by the way- thanks) Look at some of the popular  models offered only a short time ago, and you can see that they are really overused, and seem out of date now. No longer cutting edge. And some models, although very interesting seem limited in their scope, and can be greatly misused. (what's with the "See no Evil" model by Aery Soul? I must be too old as I don't understand it. Very talented artist(s) incredible work, but not my cup of tea.)

I was a lurker for the longest time (using a different name), admiring the occasional piece that caught my fancy, before I dared to attempt to post anything. I admit I am not a great artist, maybe not even a good artist as my images gets few hits, and even fewer reviews. Perhaps its because I get wrapped up in my 'art' and get pretty excited to show off my latest creation, only to shudder  when I go back and look at it some weeks later. Looks nothing like I remember it, and the flaws become glaringly evident. (case in point. caution: adult advisory)
Also, by looking under the 'What's Popular" section shows definite trends in who is looking and what they like to see. You'll see the same names and reviews under very similar images, or images posted by the same person. A downside of the 'Favorite Artist'. Get an email telling you that new image by your favorite artist is online, and go see it, leave feedback, and click elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I love it when I get 'favorited' but it encourages me to do better, as I do not want to dissappoint a potential fan. I know how I feel when I an artist I favorited for a picture then produces what I think is junk. I don't leave feedback, although perhaps I should.
Still, this is a great place, and I think I can put up with the junk to see the occasional great image.

Mike

I also have to say that it's hard to be motivated to post to the renderosity galleries when you know the work will be bumped off the first page in under 30 minutes. I don't know about other people, but it takes me a long time to do something good, and if I'm going to go to that sort of effort, I don't want to post it to a place where I know it will be instantly buried.  

There was  a time when you clicked on " most commented " or "most viewed"and you'd sit back in awe of some amazing art, the author would explain the process and you learned from that. Now you get someone with a whole lot of worthless comments and a whole lot of  nothing to say! Being an artist, I thrive on creativity and thats what motivates me to greater heights. How do I get excited about two static figures gazing into poserland with crossed eyes and bad skin? Maybe its time to leave Renderosity?

Yeah, that does bite. I've tried posting during less busy periods, but there is a reason that time is less busy, because nobody is there! Catch-22. Also hurts when someone posts right after you and gets a gazillion comments, and you look at it, and think, WTF?

Quote - I also have to say that it's hard to be motivated to post to the renderosity galleries when you know the work will be bumped off the first page in under 30 minutes. I don't know about other people, but it takes me a long time to do something good, and if I'm going to go to that sort of effort, I don't want to post it to a place where I know it will be instantly buried.  

   It was those images that first attracted me to Renderosity early on, and I have learned a lot, even from the bad images (as in: I will never post anything that bad.)
   Perhaps there is a problem with sheer volume. There is too much to look at. Miss a week, and you will never know what you missed. Who has the time to pore over every picture? Keywords really don't seem to work.
    One of problems I see is that very few people are unwilling to critique an image, tell them that they need to work on this or that. One of my early images brought forth comments from a person I respect, and he was right. We emailed back and forth several times, and I fixed that picture (but have not posted it here) I think one of the reasons for the reluctance is that they could be perceived as an a-hole if they dare run counter to others opinions.
    That is one of the reasons I post my art here. I'm open to creative criticism. If you're going to tell me it sucks, tell me why it sucks. I may disagree, It may hurt my feelings, but thats the risk I take by posting an picture. Got to have a thick hide, and not have a mutual love fest (i.e. you praise my work, and I'll praise yours) Not everyone likes Mucha, nor does everyone like Norman Rockwell. (I'm neither by a long shot.)
    If you feel genuinely unhappy with Renderosity, what would you suggest to make it better?
Is there a better alternative? If so, where at?
    Perhaps there should be gallery moderators as well, who simply pick pictures and rate them base them solely on content, not the name of the submitter. They would have to be anonymous, and may even be a different person from week to week. Perhaps showcasing the best of that week in their gallery?I for one would like to see something along that venue.
    Before I started posting images here, I posted images over at the Daz art site when it first went online and was immensely disappointed by that experience. Turned out to be a spam fest, and what was with the head to head competition that they shoved down my throat?
   Maybe the comments should not be visible at all?
   Maybe its late and I'm just an old man rambling on about nothing.

Quote - There was  a time when you clicked on " most commented " or "most viewed"and you'd sit back in awe of some amazing art, the author would explain the process and you learned from that. Now you get someone with a whole lot of worthless comments and a whole lot of  nothing to say! Being an artist, I thrive on creativity and thats what motivates me to greater heights. How do I get excited about two static figures gazing into poserland with crossed eyes and bad skin? Maybe its time to leave Renderosity?

What I don't get is why people feel so obligated to comment back on other images even when those images are not that interesting in the first place? Yet you read stuff like amazing, genius, awesome, fantastic...I sit here scratching my head many times asking...Am I not seeing it?

As a professional, you do not have to "get excited to get creative."  The passion never leaves you and you thrive on the thought of the next work, even when you do not know where it will take you.

No offense, but when you have to depend on others to stimulate you, you still have not become an artist.  And even when I see junk I still admire the work for the effort that went into its creation.  Models or not, it still takes "the person" to put it all together. 

I try not to grade other peoples work, just admire what they did, trite or not. 

As far a professinals go; you greet and move on.  It's our way of life, always trying to push to the next creative or talented level, and we often go in search of those who support that whereever it may take us.  You could say, just like children we outgrow our environment and relationships as we become more expoerienced. 

One should also remember that our curltural world is changing, and what was popular and or required a decade ago, no longer is.  I do not have collectors waiting at the door anymore, only a few who would buy a cheap print.  Times change.

No I don't need others to stimulate me (view my images) all were created from an artistic imaginative mind.  As an artist you are not right in your comment keenart...the passion does move in waves and there are times when you are floundering like a fish and then there are times when  you are riding the biggest wave. Art is gut wrenching at its best and if you put it out with ease then you are not an artist but a business man and a fraud.  There are artists and then there are set designers who believe themselves to be artists!

Art is to each, so I would not argue with you about your creative experience or how you obtain it. But, I have never had “artist block.” I love what I do, which always leaves me open to imagination and creativity. So I do not have to turn the emotional spicket on and off to get what I want.   That does not make art any less of art or fradulent by any means.

When a teacher many a student would ask, “What should I do?”  Many felt that inspiration was something tangible they had to go look for and find so they could record that great masterpiece that would propel them to fame.     

Rembrandt was famous not because he was a good painter or a great artist, but because he made a mistake as a businessman. 

A professional has spent so much time learning the trade all is second nature for them. It isn’t fraud, it is experience turned into talent. You do not need gut wrenching events in your life to create good or great art work. Rarely does a “gut wrenching high riding wave,” give you the masterpiece you seek. If you spend your life around great artists you may find that out.

I have not seen your art, but I doubt you have spent your life around  great artists as you say I have not. I won't get into quoting other artists from our past, as what was written in their behalf was not in their own handwritings. You are the same school of thought that believes a diploma is equivalent  to talent and any artist worth their salt knows long before they reach the so called  professional arena you speak of that what they pull from within does not come easily. You seem to speak of masterpieces as if they plop from ones butt, not so... As you can fill one large bookshelf with all the memorable works created by the most talented (not experienced) artists of our times.

Well purely from a personal point of view, I think I do some pretty good stuff in a diverse subject area, I also get frustrated when I know I've done a good piece and maybe scrape 15 comments and then see what I consider a pile of crap getting 60, 70 + comments when as you say the eyes are dead or the poses stiff etc.

So I guess I agree with you in some context but not all, I think there are still some good artists here but they are being stifled by the "I'll comment on yours if you comment on mine" menatlity which means often the flotsam floats to the top!
Of course there are still top artists that get to the top on merit and artistic talent like Blackerie for example!

The original post reminds me of a similar post from an undesirable person a while ago..it's too similar.

Anyway.
 

Quote - As you can fill one large bookshelf with all the memorable works created by the most talented (not experienced) artists of our times.

THAT is one of the most arrogant, crass and ignorant things I've heard on art in a long time.
it is YOUR opinion.

Art is "good" as long as the person viewing it likes it. Doesn'tmatter if it was made on a PC or with bits of shell on sand. Only the viewer can say if, to him, i'ts truly memorable and important.
And YOU certainly have not seen much of the world's art, it's simply impossible. How many wonders have you never seen because the artist never shows, them? Or carves them in wood in some backwater etc?

As we get older, wee get more critical, that maybe your problem. I can't stand much from Hollywood now, lol, too smooth, polished and utterly non-human (real people have scars, bad teeth etc and they don't pose for perfect shots on perfect film).

Originally, art here blew me away because it was NEW. you are missing that important point.
Your "digital art virginity" has passed away so, yer more cynical...natural, but foolish not to recognize it ;)

I still see fantastic work here. But my standard of what's "amazing" has gone up.
So stop being Mr Scrooge and enjoy, before yer weighed down with the chains of dispepsia, grumpiness, arrogance and hubris.

In othe words, stop being an old fart and ENJOY life and art while ye can! :tt2:

It is indeed all up to the viewer.I for one have been here for almost 7 years and have seen the level of quality wane in some galleries,but i personally believe that the more we learn,and the better we get the more we have the ablility to percieve whats good and what isn't.I remember a time when i thought Poser art was the best thing in the world..in fact exactly what got me into digital art is the desire to learn how to make digital eyes..you know with the wetness and reflection ect.It absolutly amazed me.Now that it is old hat and a basic skill for ME I think it is rather trite,but i assure you there is someone out there right now putting out garbage that many people who arent "in the know" think is just fantastic.And it will always be this way.

Compared to a few years ago personally i think the quality of the Vue gallery has improved in the past year,but so has the software,as it is all getting closer to that magic "make art" button it makes it easier...It is still apparent who is just starting out,but the beginner quality has improved over all i feel.

There is a great a diverse group of artists all across Renderosity, and particularly, within the Vue gallery.  I think the art work has improved quite a bit in general within the Vue gallery over the years.  People are now rendering some great atmospheric stuff that you would never see two years ago.  And with all the great plants and veg from people like Linda and others, there is a much richer diversity of nature type renderings.  I think the character/poser stuff has also improved quite a bit.  So I would have to respectfully disagree with the opening premise.

T&A will always rule the ratings - sad fact of life. So in the "most viewed" section there is BOUND to be a high number of images most of us would scratch our heads and go, "huh...?" And it's funny to read their responses in some threads - they are completely cognoscente of the fact that it's not a great image - they simply made it to get the highest number of "views" as possible. THIS was their goal - how many people can they get to LOOK at it when they KNOW it's a POS.

And yes, there are a ton of products used by what seems almost EVERYONE - while I LOVE the look of Stonemason's green dingy basemen machinery scenery (name anyone? - I'm blanking) how often do you see it every week?

I've only been here a few years, and even I have changed my opinions in that short amount of time - stuff I used to think was awesome is now pretty basic - comes with knowing more and more how to do it.

"Make Art Button" - that has always given me a giggle ;-)

There's a number of gifted artists here - yes, most may not be trained professionals - just hobbyists with a good sense of concepts and getting better and better at seeing them through. Since (like mentioned above) the galleries have a non-stop endless streaming-in of content a lot of them get knocked off of the 1st page making them harder to find, but they're there.

What I've found helpful to do is go to an artist's page you like, and look through THEIR favorites list - I've found a number of gems that way!

Sorry you're frustrated, but I'll be sticking around - still got plenty for me to see here.
-Lew ;-)

Quote - You may or may not agree with my view on this thread but as I browse the images I'm a bit disappointed at the quality of work  I view these days? Are people just getting lazy and not  taking pride in there work?

Quantity rather than quality is becoming more of the trend here.  That and more users without artist training are starting to use 3D apps.

Yes it is my opinion silverblade 33, but the only undesirable person I see is the one with a foolish grin wearing a skirt. You are not an artist so listening to you spout off means nothing to me.

Quote - What I don't get is why people feel so obligated to comment back on other images even when those images are not that interesting in the first place? Yet you read stuff like amazing, genius, awesome, fantastic...I sit here scratching my head many times asking...Am I not seeing it?

No one these days wants to hurt anyone's self-esteem for fear of getting sued.

Tablesaw, your approach certainly is one way to get your work recognized.  It still does not make one a better artist than the rest, just clever.

It would be nice if uploaded images that used content rather than original models would go into a gallery section called Content.  Then I could skip that gallery entirely and find better artwork to browse through.

Just avoiding the Poser, DAZ Studio and Vue galleries should stop most of them I'd have thought

Quote - As a professional, you do not have to "get excited to get creative.

I wish I had a $ everytime someone told me they were a professional and it turned out they were not and they still got paid for just showing up.

Quote - There is a great a diverse group of artists here...

And non-artists.

Keenart...I have been a painter in my country since I was a teen and my love of art began before I even entered school. I am not better, I see many that have talent far more superior to mine and I don't hate them for that as I don't hate the people here that enjoy creating images for whatever reason. I don't need an approach to be recognized here...As this place is only a hobby for me and not an income. I enjoy people downloading my models without a cost to them and I haven't  a desire to profit from them. Sorry but there are lousy cops, lousy doctors and there are lousy artists. Christ...The day I'm afraid to speak my mind is the day Poser gives their software away free of charge.

Attached Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art

Don't believe what's posted on wiki.

It was mostly sarcasm.I think this conversation has gone from interesting to pretty damn useless,in the flash of an eye(; It can only go so far till someone starts to argue about it...

This topic never ends well whenever it starts on Renderosity.  Reality hurts a lot of people's feelings.

Quote - Yes it is my opinion silverblade 33, but the only undesirable person I see is the one with a foolish grin wearing a skirt. You are not an artist so listening to you spout off means nothing to me.

Thought as much.... :tt2:
Again: witth age and experience, comes a higher standard and expectation.  Quite normal, but not when taken to extremes or to snobbery.

Go read back on what you have written, how you came over form the start with vinegar...that's what wrankled with me, as it resembled a nasty diatribe from a poltroon a while back.

Now, as for myself, i simply don't have the TIME to spend weeks or months on each piece (except a model). my clock is ticking, I've too much to learn, too many stories ot be told and too little time. I like telling a story with what I make, while I can.

"Art" does not belong to YOU. Jeesh. Thank God (or whatever you believe in) for having your talent, enjoy it, but chill for goodness sake. 

Read what you have psoted, then imagine someone speaking to you like that.  You didn't come here for a debate, you came with an itchy keyboard finger and vim.
.303 Bookworms fly from Tablesaw's fingers :p

Why not debate it more calmly and logically, while also realizing that art is a deeply subjective thing? :) Like politics or religion, you can never be "right" except about hard facts, as your preferences are entirely personal: it works for YOU.

Shonner,

Quote - This topic never ends well whenever it starts on Renderosity.  Reality hurts a lot of people's feelings.

Agreed!
Well, "reality" hurts all of us, and I don't know about you, but art's one of my escapes from "Reality's" woes ;)
Rather talk useful things about art: how to's etc, or humorus, positive things, than this.

So...on the original topic:

I think that sums it up nicely? :)

Holy F_ _ _ Yes reality does hurt!...And for those who can't stand for it should find solace in their mothers bosoms. This thread has become lame and if there was a delete I'd click on it.

Listen pal...six months ago I had heart surgery and a cardiologist looked me in the eye and said I may not make it but I'm here and made it because I have guts and fearlessness. I don't whine about any of it or do I display it on my web page for all to see. You have to much time on your hands for someone who hasn't a lot of time.

 I was a musician for many years before I turned to visual art. My thing was "independent" artists - I believe that some great stuff goes unheard underneath the RADAR because it has no corporate backing - said another way, the corporate stuff wasn't worth my time because it was too formula, lacking passion and predictable. I came across a lot of crap (the journey's more important than the destination), but when I found that one gem in a thousand, I'd ask myself "why aren't more people into this?"

My whole reason for writing music was "what happens when I modulate x with y but invert it with q after running it through a theta filter". I think that's the difference between an artist and a hobbyist - the artist isn't looking for personal praise but have dedicated their lives to the studious pursuit of their craft, looking to push the envelope and really move peoples emotions, perhaps get them to see the world in a different way. Though it is not a lifestyle for everyone, I have no TV or significant other because I am married to my muse, and she is one jealous and demanding b*tch, whom I could not live without, or would want to compromise with distractions.

On the flip side, many so-called hobbyists will become great (though I believe it takes lots of study and experimentation - perhaps the lack of that is what the original poster is lamenting; there are far too many pin-ups with blank stares, pouty lips and small noses in the gallery), but before one can be great, or even good, they're gonna put out crap (speaking from experience). I love the crap that I put out, but that doesn't mean that I'm content to rest upon it. I want more.

Finally, it's funny that people are so "butt-hurt" by constructive criticism. Critics can be your best allies, if one takes their comments in stride. Art is subjective, but an artist must look at his / her work as objectively as possible. That, I believe, is in short supply in some of the larger galleries.

 I think everything is art to some degree because humans can be moved by anything.  Just a painting that is the color red speaks to the viewer if the viewer is opened to it.  At 1st I didn't understand it, but I see art in everything because everything speaks to me.

I did notice the art here does not speak to me as much as it did, but lately I've been enjoying  the fractal art.  

Does any of this make good sense?

Quote -  I think everything is art to some degree because humans can be moved by anything.....
 Does any of this make good sense?

Yes.

I like music that is not sung in English. I live within spitting distance of Mexico, so when I get bored I scan through radio stations until I hear something that catches my attention, which is usually  tuba mixed with accordian. I was listening to a song today that sounded like the opening credits to the 1956 version of Godzilla, if that movie was produced in Mexico instead of Japan. It was horribly awesome.

One must be open to influences wherever they come from.

If you really love your art no one can offend you with a comment.

Tablesaw;

I am glad to here you are just an ordinary person like all of the rest of us.   Whether a hobbyist or an artist your work speaks for itself.

Shonner;

How could you separate the content from 3D, since almost all of the materials the software contains we use or modify are in some way part of the original content?  

Cobra Eye...Do you know how many artists prey on people like you? I have a friend...maybe not so much a friend these days who makes a decent living putting out his trash. His philosophy is if I can talk you into purchasing a few red squares then we'll gladly call it art.

 I love it when I find a song sung in another language that I have never heard before yet can feel the emotional waves without knowing the meaning of the words.  

The heart of art is emotion.  The more honest the emotion the more moving.

There are many things that make art great, but honest emotion is special for me.

Tablesaw you seemed to have missed my point and I can easily see yours, so what else is there...

Good luck with all that.

Quote - Shonner;  

How could you separate the content from 3D, since almost all of the materials the software contains we use or modify are in some way part of the original content?

This site isn't programmed to do that.  But if it was, then I could hide the Content gallery while I browse new uploads.  It would be nice to see 18 thumbnails on my screen of original 3D (and 2D) artwork instead of page after page of nothing but quickly posed, positioned, somewhat lit, and then poorly rendered freebies and/or bought content.

I get it and that would be much quicker.  Where is the suggestion box?

Generally, the best you can hope for in a Renderocity gallery are elements of originality garnished with preexisting content. Very few Vue artists populate their scene with homemade solidgrowth, for example. Most of what you see contains nothing original except perhaps the composition and combination. It is akin to collage or flower arrangement.

As far as origionality goes EVERYTHING has been done already.We live on one planet.We can only do and see so much in a lifetime.It is up to you to decide what you like and what you do not.

I should clarify that by "original" I mean a likeness actually created by the artist rather than loaded from stock content.

OH!!! you mean 98% of the Poser gallery:D And 25% of mine:p

It is the same on the Gallery circuit, they want consistency; the same thing over and over again.  They are not interested in new and your fans (buyers) are pretty much the same, they want what the Gallery wants you to paint, or if fortunate you do best. 

So, as you say, if you are good at painting scenes of cars, how many ways can you pose a corvette?  We lost the print market because it had all been done after 20 years and investors inflated the prices of prints until few could afford to buy.  Now it is Kincaid, which is also finally beginning to wane.  

Art and peoples tastes are cyclic, as a professional you ride the economic demand or you perish.  Art is all business now and nothing will change that.  

Yep.Royo Valejo,Barber ect.same same same...But DAMN fine art pieces every one of them. If it aint broke dont fix it(;

Quote Paloth:

"Generally, the best you can hope for in a Renderocity gallery are elements of originality garnished with preexisting content. Very few Vue artists populate their scene with homemade solidgrowth, for example.
Most of what you see contains nothing original except perhaps the composition and combination. It is akin to collage or flower arrangement."

In my humble opinion, this statement overrates the value of a homemade mesh or object, in what concerns the creation of art, and underrates the combination and composition elements.

I would say originality and art are not about object creation. Personally, I could more easily call art to a scene that transmits an original idea using only stock content, than a common still life image full of normal objects whose meshes were laboriously and profissionally made by someone. Art is not technique and vice-versa. Personally, I've seen flower arrangements that I would more readily call art than a flower that someone created in some 3D tool.

In my humble opinion, originality lies not in an object, it lies in what ideas and emotions you transmit with it. And, for that, combination and composition are key elements.

Rendo is a site for "fun". People DO use it as their mode of viewing their portfolio, but for the most part, this is for fun.

There are both "less" and "more" experienced creators on the site. And no matter how subjective your eye, no one can argue the statement that there are both "better" and "worse" creations in the galleries - comes with the territory of being a site specifically as an outlet open to anyone of any level of experience or ability.

A site like, say, CGTalk is for more experienced folk who are more discerning, and their entire goal is to GET BETTER while presenting what they can do at the moment.

Do some crap images slip by the CGTalk folks? Yeah, but not much because of the atmosphere there - when you put an image up on THAT site you know it's being viewed by VERY experienced people in their fields - so you are more likely to spend much more time on concept and execution because you don't want to look like the kid with his pencil drawing of stick-figures to them.

I'm somewhere in between as far as my expectations in the gallery - there IS a marketplace for a good reason - people are MEANT to buy and USE the products (you'll note, CGTalk has NO marketplace like this - you are expected to MAKE all your assets). I EXPECT to see the products used, but there is something else I WANT to see...

The more experienced you become, the more YOU should be creating as far as assets and clothing and such. The concepts, compositions, and execution of ideas should become BETTER with experience.

While I expect someone to grow as a creator, there is NO denying that this site is mainly an outlet for "fun". Therefore, I can't gripe TOO much because some folks just want to tinker in some fun software when they get home at night, and have a moment to themselves to not think about work.

Quote - In my humble opinion, this statement overrates the value of a homemade mesh or object, in what concerns the creation of art, and underrates the combination and composition elements.

I would say originality and art are not about object creation. Personally, I could more easily call art to a scene that transmits an original idea using only stock content, than a common still life image full of normal objects whose meshes were laboriously and profissionally made by someone. Art is not technique and vice-versa. Personally, I've seen flower arrangements that I would more readily call art than a flower that someone created in some 3D tool.

In my humble opinion, originality lies not in an object, it lies in what ideas and emotions you transmit with it. And, for that, combination and composition are key elements.

Well said! :)
Sea shells, oil paint, or meshes, don't matter what the heck you use, it's what you DO with it, that counts.

If somoene despises a kid's cartoon because it's "rubbish that's not even art", they kind of miss the whole damned point.

I'll take Rolf Harris over a po-faced misanthrope, any day of the week ;)

I love the comments I get which are well thought through, constructive and insightful. The ones which say "that's great, but you could improve it by doing X Y and Z" - bring it on!

I'm also tired of the dull Poser images, and images which are little more than a selection of library objects dragged into a scene which is poorly lit and composed.

But a lot of what goes on, IMHO, is just emotional "stroking" and is far removed from quality artwork or the kind of constructive critical feedback that leads to the sharpening of creative gifts.

BUT there is some awesome stuff on here and loads of genuine talent and creative artistry and so I'm prepared to dig a bit to find it. Also I've bumped into some kindred spirits on here who have a similar passion to me - to really stretch my software to its limits and get the best out of it, to enjoy creating technically complex images that stretch our skill and artistic experience, so I'll stick around a bit longer.